[3.5] Surviving Without Magic

[Drakevarg]

O'er this Christmas break, I intend to be running a campaign with my cousins. This isn't terribly important since these things rarely come to more than botched one-shots, but since I intend to be using the same setting with my normal group as soon as I have a laptop that won't crash every ten minutes, I felt it worth considering.

The setting I'm building is extremely low magic. As in, the only magical class at all is the Warlock, alchemy is nonexistant, and magic items are so rare that simply finding one probably qualifies as a plot point.

Obviously this raises a few issues. The challenge ratings of higher level monsters assume you have the standard WBL spent on magic items. In an almost completely mundane world, how does one get by without a +2 Sword of Asskicking?

Basically my question to the Playground is, "How do I keep my players at their expected power level when there aren't any magic items to be had?"

One idea I have is pretty straightforward; put them in command of a small force of NPCs. After all, in my setting most battalion leaders are only 5th level.

[Zaq]

There are three important things to consider.

1) What level are they? Going low magic and low wealth is uncomfortable but possible at low levels, but requires a hell of a lot of work (and houserules, really) at mid levels and higher.

2) How magical are the enemies? Do monsters still have SLAs? What about supernatural abilities?

3) Where is the HP coming from? People (rightly) scoff at playing The Healer, but that's because it's assumed that you can get healing from any number of sources, most notably magic items (a wand of CLW/Lesser Vigor and/or at least one Healing Belt per person should be on just about every party's wish list of items to get first). Without that, HP has to come from somewhere. Especially without magical sources of AC and miss chances, D&D 3.5 assumes that characters who engage in combat (i.e. 99% of all adventurers) will get hurt and lose HP, but it also assumes that those HP will be back before too terribly long. Natural healing, even with use of the Heal skill, honestly just isn't enough to actually be worth it. Sure, the players CAN sit around for a week after every couple of skirmishes, but that's just plain not fun, and it makes time-sensitive missions nearly impossible. The players can mitigate this a little bit by playing cautiously, but they can't avoid it, and it's going to be an issue at some point. Not a challenge; an issue. You'll need to find some way of handling this, because the players don't want to sit around and slowly heal for several days after each day of adventuring, and you probably don't want them to do that either. (Having a healing-focused crusader in the party will help a little bit, but that has its own problems.)

[Zonugal]

Initially I have to ask what level is the party going to be at?

From my past experiences I'd say just using some less monstrous monsters and having challenges be more dependent on skill challenges may prove useful.

[Keld Denar]

You also have issues with things like Dr/magic and incorporealness. This makes things a bit sticky. If you plan on having most foes be humanoid with class levels and equally nonmagical gear, you shouldn't have any problems.

[Drakevarg]

1) What level are they? Going low magic and low wealth is uncomfortable but possible at low levels, but requires a hell of a lot of work (and houserules, really) at mid levels and higher.

They'll be starting at 3rd level. With my main DnD group, they'll continue to level up from this point indefinately until I or they get bored of the setting.

2) How magical are the enemies? Do monsters still have SLAs? What about supernatural abilities?

The vast majority of their enemies will be human. The occasional animal (largely from doing something stupid, like wandering into a bear cave), and when the plot calls for it, Lovecraftian horrors.

The last bit is where there's something to worry about, since I can throw pretty much whatever I want at them. But to answer the question of "how magical are the enemies," the answer is either "not at all" or "very."

3) Where is the HP coming from?

Natural healing only, pretty much like real life. Though I might want to homebrew some sort of modified version of the Heal skill that will allow faster healing.

You also have issues with things like Dr/magic and incorporealness. This makes things a bit sticky. If you plan on having most foes be humanoid with class levels and equally nonmagical gear, you shouldn't have any problems.

When things with DR/Magic or Incorporealness show up, that's probably the sign to either run like hell or hide behind the party Warlock.

[Zonugal]

It sounds like an urban campaign may be most suited for what you are desiring.

Cityscape would be a good resource in this case.

[Drakevarg]

It sounds like an urban campaign may be most suited for what you are desiring.

Cityscape would be a good resource in this case.

I was thinking a military campaign, myself.

And an urban campaign is looking unlikely, as I've let my party vote on which of three nations they'd like to start in. Most of them so far have voted the "frozen ass-end of the world" nation. No real cities to speak of.

[Zaq]

Natural healing only, pretty much like real life.

See, this sets off alarm bells in my head. While I have no problem with a grittier fantasy game, doing it in D&D 3.5 is going to cause a lot of headaches, because the system simply runs on a set of assumptions that go completely against this. Low wealth games and low magic games are, in my opinion, not great ideas in the first place (strictly speaking about 3.5), but they can be done with some effort. Low healing games, on the other hand, really stretch the system to its limits. Making combat lethal and going for the whole "one false step can spell disaster" thing works well enough for some games, but in 3.5, there are many times when the players just don't have enough control of the situation to choose a path that won't end in someone bleeding. The players will often end up wounded or dying just from sheer luck, and that really just causes headaches. A gritty and lethal game is, in my mind, very satisfying to play when you know that you've survived only through your wits and valor, but when it's just a matter of luck, well, I don't find that to be satisfying at all. Without magic to give you some control of the situation, and with the d20 being as huge a die as it is, there's really no way to avoid taking some hits, which means that you're very likely to die no matter how intelligently or cautiously you play. I'd go so far as to say that making character death this likely could cause people to treat it less seriously, just because there's not much that they can do about their situations anyway. (It's also worth noting that if you're going to play a game where characters can and will die frequently, you do NOT want to have a character creation system that's as long and drawn-out as 3.5's is. Sure, it's not the worst offender by a long shot, but it takes longer than most people would find pleasant if they're going to have to go through a character or two every week.)

I would strongly consider letting PCs heal significantly more with rest than is standard. Perhaps you roll your hit dice every night (so a level 4 fighter would roll 4d10 and recover that much), or you factor your CON into how fast you recuperate, or both. It's not super realistic, but if you have HP in the first place, you're going to have some pretty severe breaks with realism no matter what you do. It'll mean that the party gets broken up less frequently, it'll mean that people won't have to spend so long recuperating, and it'll mean that the game will just go more smoothly.

If there was more that players could do to avoid taking damage, then a grittier healing system might work . . . but you have to bend and twist 3.5 very far indeed to make that happen, and without magic, I don't see how you could do it and keep the system recognizable.

[Keld Denar]

There are enough things with mundane DR if you want to use it. Silver/cold iron/adamantine/burgeoning/slashing/piercing are all ex in nature.

Other than that, humanoids with class levels.

[Weasel of Doom]

I'm not sure how you'd feel about this and it wouldn't solve much but allowing non-magical weapons and armour with magic-like bonuses could help.

The rules of a simple +1 or +2 sword or breastplate aren't inherently magic, it's just a minor bonus which makes the item better at what it does and could easily be represented as a sort of super-masterwork.


HP is a bigger problem simply because of how much the d&d system expects the party to take and heal hp damage.

If you want a gritty feel where hp damage cannot be easily removed then I suppose leave it how it is, rely more on role-play and investigation and explain to the players that they will have to plan combats to avoid long combats. The party would need to try and ensure that combats end quickly by using surprise, numbers and the enviroment to tip the odds. Combats might be more strategic and have a greater use of traps and ranged weapons. From the party's perspective they would basically want the outcome of the battle decided before it begun. I mostly play Dark Heresy and this is how combats tend to go in that system (until the cultist turns into a daemon and everyone dies).

If you don't want to change the style of the game so much maybe adapt some form of healing surge from 4th ed to represent the characters being badass and toughing it out, ignoring their pain and injuries for the sake of King and Country / the mission / gold.

[Drakevarg]

-walloftext-

There's these things called "paragraphs"...

I would strongly consider letting PCs heal significantly more with rest than is standard. Perhaps you roll your hit dice every night (so a level 4 fighter would roll 4d10 and recover that much), or you factor your CON into how fast you recuperate, or both. It's not super realistic, but if you have HP in the first place, you're going to have some pretty severe breaks with realism no matter what you do. It'll mean that the party gets broken up less frequently, it'll mean that people won't have to spend so long recuperating, and it'll mean that the game will just go more smoothly.

I like the idea of CON Modifer x HD/day. It's fairly close to how it already works anyway, and it makes sense that the big manly man would be back in fighting shape faster than the bookworm.

I'm not sure how you'd feel about this and it wouldn't solve much but allowing non-magical weapons and armour with magic-like bonuses could help.

The rules of a simple +1 or +2 sword or breastplate aren't inherently magic, it's just a minor bonus which makes the item better at what it does and could easily be represented as a sort of super-masterwork.

Well I do have my homebrew rules for mundane weapon modifers (in my sig), but they aren't much.

[Zonugal]

I was thinking a military campaign, myself.

And an urban campaign is looking unlikely, as I've let my party vote on which of three nations they'd like to start in. Most of them so far have voted the "frozen ass-end of the world" nation. No real cities to speak of.

Oh man... I'm just remembering reading Frostburn and how the environment may literally be their deadliest opponent.

[Zaq]

I suppose I should add that if you're playing a very socially-oriented game, one in which people don't just charge in with flashing steel at the slightest insult but instead actually treat drawing lethal weapons as a big freaking deal (the kind where the PCs will still be talking about your average fight an in-game week or more after the fact, because, like most people but unlike most standard adventurers, situations in which your life is threatened and you're threatening the life of someone else really don't come up that often), then a grittier healing system could work. If you're going to be fighting in a war, though, or exploring hostile territory, or otherwise expecting to roll initiative on a regular basis . . . then I stand by my statements.

[Drakevarg]

Oh man... I'm just remembering reading Frostburn and how the environment may literally be their deadliest opponent.

I want Frostburn so bad. I wrote a Campaign Journal about a campaign I was in that was set at the northern edge of civilization (as in, there was a sign that deliniated "if you go any further north and lose sight of this sign, you WILL die"). One of the best campaigns I've ever been in, even if it only ran three sessions.

I'm also ecstatic that my players won't have access to endure elements. That spell takes all the fun out of it.

[The Glyphstone]

In situations like this, the best way to preserve a non-magical feel without screwing up the math of 3.5 any worse than it already has been is basically 'grades of masterwork'.

Call them what you want, but +1/+2/+whatever weapons and armor are not longer magical enchantments, but the innate skill of increasingly talented blacksmiths working with increasingly rare and valuable raw materials. Any scrub can forge a sword, or even a masterwork sword with more effort. A trained military smith might be able to forge +1 or +2 gear, if he has pure iron. The +3 or +4 sword is an heirloom, the personal blade of an army commander handed down through generations and talked about in bardic epics for its ability to shatter the blades of lesser men. When you go questing for that +5 sword, you must first find the legendary meteor of starmetal that fell from the sky eons ago, and bring it to the Mystic Smith of Whosawhatsa who dwells on the Mountain of Wheresawhensa, given immortality by the God of Smiths to live in seclusion and perfect his craft beyond mortal ken.

Consider alchemical herbs and mixtures to aid in healing - not necessarily potions, but concotions that might raise a person's effective Con mod overnight for the purposes of regaining HP.

[Zonugal]

I want Frostburn so bad. I wrote a Campaign Journal about a campaign I was in that was set at the northern edge of civilization (as in, there was a sign that deliniated "if you go any further north and lose sight of this sign, you WILL die"). One of the best campaigns I've ever been in, even if it only ran three sessions.

I'm also ecstatic that my players won't have access to endure elements. That spell takes all the fun out of it.

You wanna know how great Frostburn is? The environment in the book spits in Endure Elements face, it is that rough.

[Drakevarg]

In situations like this, the best way to preserve a non-magical feel without screwing up the math of 3.5 any worse than it already has been is basically 'grades of masterwork'.

Call them what you want, but +1/+2/+whatever weapons and armor are not longer magical enchantments, but the innate skill of increasingly talented blacksmiths working with increasingly rare and valuable raw materials. Any scrub can forge a sword, or even a masterwork sword with more effort. A trained military smith might be able to forge +1 or +2 gear, if he has pure iron. The +3 or +4 sword is an heirloom, the personal blade of an army commander handed down through generations and talked about in bardic epics for its ability to shatter the blades of lesser men. When you go questing for that +5 sword, you must first find the legendary meteor of starmetal that fell from the sky eons ago, and bring it to the Mystic Smith of Whosawhatsa who dwells on the Mountain of Wheresawhensa, given immortality by the God of Smiths to live in seclusion and perfect his craft beyond mortal ken.

Consider alchemical herbs and mixtures to aid in healing - not necessarily potions, but concotions that might raise a person's effective Con mod overnight for the purposes of regaining HP.

I was actually thinking of something similar to this, only using superior materials. Though, since one tends to go with the other, maybe both. Extremely good blacksmiths capable of making incredible weapons, but need a material that can stand up to their skill.

[The Glyphstone]

I was actually thinking of something similar to this, only using superior materials. Though, since one tends to go with the other, maybe both. Extremely good blacksmiths capable of making incredible weapons, but need a material that can stand up to their skill.

And it comes with its own built-in adventure hooks, so win-win situation all around, right?

The 'special materials' clause also lets yo, if you feel like it, occasionally 'cheat' and slip in quasimagical properties. When the master smith asked you to find him the scales of a red dragon so he could forge you that +3 scale mail, he didn't expect that the resultant armor would retain some of the creature's innate resistance to fire. That lump of iron ore cut from the core of an Iron Golem forgotten inside a frozen polar temple still pulses with an unnatural cold, and deals a small amount of frost damage at a touch.

[Zonugal]

Consider alchemical herbs and mixtures to aid in healing - not necessarily potions, but concotions that might raise a person's effective Con mod overnight for the purposes of regaining HP.

This reminds of rune-inscribed weapons (like the Scotsman's sword from Samurai Jack).

[Drakevarg]

And it comes with its own built-in adventure hooks, so win-win situation all around, right?

Aye.

The 'special materials' clause also lets yo, if you feel like it, occasionally 'cheat' and slip in quasimagical properties. When the master smith asked you to find him the scales of a red dragon so he could forge you that +3 scale mail, he didn't expect that the resultant armor would retain some of the creature's innate resistance to fire. That lump of iron ore cut from the core of an Iron Golem forgotten inside a frozen polar temple still pulses with an unnatural cold, and deals a small amount of frost damage at a touch.

Don't think I'll do that, but I might include quasi-magical modfications. One idea I got from my cousin is a "Flare Blade" that has a mildly serrated edge that runs along a line of flint in the scabbard, and is coated in a flammable material. Any attacks made in the first round after drawing the blade deal +1d6 fire damage.

[HunterOfJello]

Unearthed Arcana's Reserve Point system works well for situations like this.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Low healing/low magic.
I recomend you use the Vitality system from unearthed arcana.

May I sugest E6?

Its a setting/system that doesn't go higher then 6th level.

[Eldariel]

You know, I'm journalling a very similar campaign right now. You might be interested in checking the signature out and seeing how we dealt with the various issues like lack of non-magical healing, AC becoming irrelevant due to BAB and lack of magical boosts (of which there are far more for AC than AB), and so on.

Short version:
- ½ Level to AC bonus
- Vitality and Wound Point system with heavy modifications; the crux here is that most damage comes to Vitality Points which doesn't represent actual damage. So real wounds happen less often which makes it plausible to make damage (the actual process of taking hits) realistic while still not having to spend few days recovering after each encounter lest you just plain die.
- Our modifications include damage system which results damage to specific limbs with appropriate disabling effects (when taking WP damage), and various states of static "penalty to everything" from losing VP (that is, combat fatigue).
- Characters get more feats: specifically two feats on level 1, and one feat on 2, and every 2 levels there-after. The basic idea is that as written, characters only have enough feats to be good at one thing, and no room for "utility" feats like Elusive Target, Endurance (it can be v. useful without magic), etc. As non-casters do most of their stuff with feats, extra feats enable more interesting, versatile characters who aren't necessarily one-hit wonders, and allows for feats that aren't a part of the feat path you're taking to be fit into the build. Oh, and we "fix" some trash like TWF, Dodge and so on by combining superfluous feats together, making some stupid ones automatically available, etc.
- Characters get 6 to 8 extra skill points per level (depending on class; with 4x on level 1 as per usual) and class skill lists are vastly expanded: Basically, we concluded that what isn't done with feats is done with skills and characters don't have nearly enough skills even at 20 Int on level 1 for basic competence at most things they care about. Just try building a Rogue with 20 Int and notice how you still miss out on about half the skills you'd be interested in. And that's a 20 Int ROGUE. If you want your people learning climbing, swimming, spotting, sense motive, diplomacy, bluff, use rope, forgery, escape artist, etc. you will need to give them much better skill access and lots more skill points. I can tell you we've used basically all skills in the game thus far (with the obvious exception of Use Magic Device) and it's been a blast to actually both, have points in obscure skills and to get to use them.
- Instead of magic weapons, we have more different materials and craftsmanship levels; basically anything that could somewhat plausibly be a non-magical ability is such, instead. This makes "legendary weapons" still existent if not magical in the least. +X, Keen, that sort of stuff is simple. Oh, and this gives PCs uses for the small fortunes they might acquire; well, beyond purchasing their own keeps, of course. Which they should definitely do too though.
- We revamped the whole poison system. And trap system. 'cause one of our PCs is a poisoner and the other is a trapmaker. This is just to make the whole process of doing stuff more interesting.
- We make heavy use of Tome of Battle and use rewrites of core classes alongside homebrew ranged disciplines to expand it to work for all types of combat. Basically, the idea is that without spells, there's a distinct lack of choice in combat; a depth of choice that would exist in a simple sword fight. The standard game cannot really represent the different moves and maneuvers you can do and try, so we use ToB instead to give us the tools to represent those.

[Zonugal]

Have you thought about how Tome of Battle might play in a role in such a campaign?

[Drakevarg]

Have you thought about how Tome of Battle might play in a role in such a campaign?

No, and I don't intend to. I never use books I don't own in meatspace, and that includes ToB.

[Fayd]

Heh. It's not 3.5, but that's basically the entire POINT of the campaign I'm in. It's interesting... really interesting.

I can't contribute on the power balance of things, but... It is a very fun concept to play with, if everyone is on board with it.... and is even interesting when one person is purposefully subverting it (our "No magic" was really just CL -5, and he's decided to play a mage... he is still a valuable contribution to the team too!)

[Drakevarg]

Short version:

Spoiler

Show

- ½ Level to AC bonus
- Vitality and Wound Point system with heavy modifications; the crux here is that most damage comes to Vitality Points which doesn't represent actual damage. So real wounds happen less often which makes it plausible to make damage (the actual process of taking hits) realistic while still not having to spend few days recovering after each encounter lest you just plain die.
- Our modifications include damage system which results damage to specific limbs with appropriate disabling effects (when taking WP damage), and various states of static "penalty to everything" from losing VP (that is, combat fatigue).
- Characters get more feats: specifically two feats on level 1, and one feat on 2, and every 2 levels there-after. The basic idea is that as written, characters only have enough feats to be good at one thing, and no room for "utility" feats like Elusive Target, Endurance (it can be v. useful without magic), etc. As non-casters do most of their stuff with feats, extra feats enable more interesting, versatile characters who aren't necessarily one-hit wonders, and allows for feats that aren't a part of the feat path you're taking to be fit into the build. Oh, and we "fix" some trash like TWF, Dodge and so on by combining superfluous feats together, making some stupid ones automatically available, etc.
- Characters get 6 to 8 extra skill points per level (depending on class; with 4x on level 1 as per usual) and class skill lists are vastly expanded: Basically, we concluded that what isn't done with feats is done with skills and characters don't have nearly enough skills even at 20 Int on level 1 for basic competence at most things they care about. Just try building a Rogue with 20 Int and notice how you still miss out on about half the skills you'd be interested in. And that's a 20 Int ROGUE. If you want your people learning climbing, swimming, spotting, sense motive, diplomacy, bluff, use rope, forgery, escape artist, etc. you will need to give them much better skill access and lots more skill points. I can tell you we've used basically all skills in the game thus far (with the obvious exception of Use Magic Device) and it's been a blast to actually both, have points in obscure skills and to get to use them.
- Instead of magic weapons, we have more different materials and craftsmanship levels; basically anything that could somewhat plausibly be a non-magical ability is such, instead. This makes "legendary weapons" still existent if not magical in the least. +X, Keen, that sort of stuff is simple. Oh, and this gives PCs uses for the small fortunes they might acquire; well, beyond purchasing their own keeps, of course. Which they should definitely do too though.
- We revamped the whole poison system. And trap system. 'cause one of our PCs is a poisoner and the other is a trapmaker. This is just to make the whole process of doing stuff more interesting.
- We make heavy use of Tome of Battle and use rewrites of core classes alongside homebrew ranged disciplines to expand it to work for all types of combat. Basically, the idea is that without spells, there's a distinct lack of choice in combat; a depth of choice that would exist in a simple sword fight. The standard game cannot really represent the different moves and maneuvers you can do and try, so we use ToB instead to give us the tools to represent those.

...that's the short version?

Some of that looks pretty interesting, but I don't want to use anything I don't own in meatspace, and that includes the SRD.

[Lans]

Have you considered allowing the Ceremony feats? There magical, but not much, and there not used at all normally

[Drakevarg]

Have you considered allowing the Ceremony feats? There magical, but not much, and there not used at all normally

I have no idea what those are or where they're from, but I'm almost certain they're not in any of my books. So no, I haven't.

[Thiyr]

I have questions on two related things: a) are you going to be changing the warlock's 12th level ability at all? (that whole crafting just about any magic item thing seems kinda...out of place, otherwise. Presuming, of course, the PCs survive till then, but still something to consider). b) are you planning to give the warlock something other than its "take 10 on UMD" ability, or will that just become a dead level?

Other than that, I think the healing points are good ones, using weapon materials as a means to add differentiation between weapons is a good point to make, and if standard alchemy isn't around, will the PCs be able to, given time, resources, and suitable effort, create various other mundane combat tricks? I know that a game like this is where I'd love to use alchemical items, as I enjoy playing those characters that sometimes pull something weird and unexpected out. Ditching some of the more outlandish or flashy stuff (liquid ice, alchemist's fire), and keeping some of the slightly more feasible stuff (smokesticks, acid, antitoxin) could be something to consider. Not knowing what other books you've got in your meaty possessions, I can't suggest other ones I'd consider, but I get the feeling you've got the gist of this.