Hybrid Dragons: Help?

[Getsugaru]

Hey Playground.
I was wondering if anyone had rules for creating hybridized dragons beyond simply slapping on the Half-Dragon Template to an existing dragon?

[The Mentalist]

Not that I know of but I would be more than willing to lend a hand on a project to make one.

I think it would be a template project but not as generic as half dragons. One with bonus spells, and full breath weapons.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Half-Dragon cant be applied to Dragons?

[Megawizard]

Half-Dragon cant be applied to Dragons?

I remember an official article that altough half-dragon can't tecnically be applied to dragons because it's suposed to represent a dragon mating with something else, you could bend it a little to represent dragons of diferent species mating.

Altough half-dragon can't really represent the most whacky dragon species. Well I doubt a single template could do it due to the huge number of dragons out there.

[The Mentalist]

Altough half-dragon can't really represent the most whacky dragon species. Well I doubt a single template could do it due to the huge number of dragons out there.

I'm thinking individual templates, I have a formula in the works.

[Gralamin]

Since no system has been specified:

4e has some basic rules for doing so in the back of Draconomicon 1.

[Getsugaru]

Yeah, but 4e is not really an option, since all of the people I play with (myself included) use either 3.5 or Pathfinder, and 4e is not really backwards compatible. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[ericgrau]

Why not give the hybrid all the abilities of both dragons, the higher of the stats / caster level from each, up the CR by 1 or 2 and call it a day? For fluff you could say that these dragons grow slower, so they aren't automatically stronger than single colored dragons of the same age.

[afroakuma]

{table=head]Dragon|Black|Blue|Green|Red|White
Black|Black|Ultramarine|Sabz|Crimson|Gray
Blue|Ultramarine|Blue|Teal|Violet|Azure
Green|Sabz|Teal|Green|Olive|Celadon
Red|Crimson|Violet|Olive|Red|Pink
White|Gray|Azure|Celadon|Pink|White[/table]

Italicized colors have unique breath weapons; others have half-and-half. All hybrids have unique traits and spell-like abilities.

[Getsugaru]

Why not give the hybrid all the abilities of both dragons, the higher of the stats / caster level from each, up the CR by 1 or 2 and call it a day? For fluff you could say that these dragons grow slower, so they aren't automatically stronger than single colored dragons of the same age.

You mean like Gestalt from Unearthed Arcana?
And on the age rate, are you suggesting that they take longer to reach each new age category? You do know that would mean they live longer, making them even more powerful (With age comes experience, after all)?

[Getsugaru]

{table=head]Dragon|Black|Blue|Green|Red|White
Black|Black|Ultramarine|Sabz|Crimson|Gray
Blue|Ultramarine|Blue|Teal|Violet|Azure
Green|Sabz|Teal|Green|Olive|Celadon
Red|Crimson|Violet|Olive|Red|Pink
White|Gray|Azure|Celadon|Pink|White[/table]

Italicized colors have unique breath weapons; others have half-and-half. All hybrids have unique traits and spell-like abilities.

Thanks for the ideas, but I'm a bit more interested in finding statistics instead of creating all new dragon species.

[boomwolf]

Not to mention you would need to think what happens when the HYBRIDS mate...

Thats the bas problem with such a system, it must be able to represent free mating between any two dragons, including hybrids.

The only way of doing it properly I can see is making a whole new dragon table fit for "generic dragons" with completing tables for random breath type and such, such a table can be something along the lines of:

{table=head]roll|breath type
1-25|as father
26-50|as mother
51-60|fire
61-70|acid
71-80|electricity
81-90|cold
91-95|sonic
95-100|roll special breath types table belong.[/table]

And the "special breath types" will include all the wackier breath types or superior type (like force, energy drain, confusion, sleep, two energies etc, etc...), each with his own rules (force use lower dice, energy drain is in 1's instead of dice, status effects are in rounds etc...)

Then make a new table for resistances (or tie them to breath energy), table for special abilities, table for spell-like-abilities (or a table for lists of thematically connected spells) and any other you need.

[ericgrau]

You mean like Gestalt from Unearthed Arcana?
And on the age rate, are you suggesting that they take longer to reach each new age category? You do know that would mean they live longer, making them even more powerful (With age comes experience, after all)?

Ya exactly like gestalt. Or like mystic theurge if you make it take longer to reach an age category. Ya, taking longer to reach each age category is to balance that out. It might make dragons of equal age category more powerful, but it'd take them longer to get there so at least the multicolored dragons don't wipe out the mono-colored ones and take over the world and drive up the price of eye bleach.

[al'raith]

my brother has mentioned something called The Council of Wyrms with rules for half-and-half dragons

[Debihuman]

The half-dragon template can be used on dragons, as this article shows:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a

Just because it doesn't exactly follow the rules, don't think you can't bend or even break them. The trick is knowing how and doing it well.

Debby

[boomwolf]

You ARE aware that the article is named "Creatures That Cannot be II", and that all creatures in there (as well in the original) are forbidden by RAW, but so awesome that they stat them anyway.

[Debihuman]

Which RAW do you mean? If you only use the MM, then it is in the RAW. If you use Races of the Dragon, it isn't.

Of course, breaking the RAW, is a homebrew tradition, especially in the name of "awesome." More frequently the result isn't so awesome, but there's a whole community here to help make at least a little more awesome.

I also did mention that it "didn't exactly follow the rules."

That said, at least a few times a year this "hybrid dragon" thread pops up. Why? Because gamers usually love dragons. In a universe where there's an owlbear, why can't there be a half-black red dragon or a half-silver gold dragon? Honestly the owlbear is more of an inspiration for stupid hybrids than the half-dragon template will ever be.

Here's an example of half-black/half-red dragon called a tiger dragon (one can only assume it has black and red stripes on it) From this site:

http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Young_..._Hybrid_Dragon)

I think we could make a better half black red dragon or a half red black dragon using the template.

Debby

[boomwolf]

Wait...so a half black half white dragon is the zebra dragon?


The whole dragon way of work in 3.5 is wrong from core. I say forget "hybrid" dragons, just scrap them and start anew with a single fully customizable dragon (crunch-wise, because fluff needs no tables.) that can be made to mimic not only any existing dragon, but any odd combination of such.

Because if you make hybrids the question rises:
What happens when your red-black "tiger dragon" breeds with a gold-copper one? or even worse, a shadow-chaos dragon? prismatic-war dragon? howling-sapphire?

[Debihuman]

The creator (not me) called it a Tiger Dragon. So I guess in his world a half-black white dragon would be a Zebra Dragon. Go figure. I would have just called it a Gray Dragon.

Of course, if you mate a half-silver gold dragon with a half-gold silver dragon do you get an electrum dragon?

However scrapping this thread to make new dragons isn't the point. There's already a thread (a bit old) that has at least 30 new dragons. Pick a gem or a color and add dragon stats and you've got a new dragon "type." Works well for true dragons for those who can stand making all the charts. Plus you can pick up converted dragons on EnWord's forums (they even updated the Pink dragon from Dragon Magazine 156 a while back).

I made up new dragons as well (click on my signature and you'll link to the extended homebrewer's page that lists my dragons -- pearl dragon, coral dragon).

However, maybe people will post actual half-dragons here.

Debby

[bladesmith]

Wait...so a half black half white dragon is the zebra dragon?


The whole dragon way of work in 3.5 is wrong from core. I say forget "hybrid" dragons, just scrap them and start anew with a single fully customizable dragon (crunch-wise, because fluff needs no tables.) that can be made to mimic not only any existing dragon, but any odd combination of such.

Because if you make hybrids the question rises:
What happens when your red-black "tiger dragon" breeds with a gold-copper one? or even worse, a shadow-chaos dragon? prismatic-war dragon? howling-sapphire?

What if hybrids were just sterile? Like mules? I mean, it makes sense(in the way that any piece of fantasy reasoning can make sense), since every dragon is a distinct species, however similar they may be.

As for actually statting them, I'd go with the Gestalt option presented earlier. Or, if you don't want to bump up their CR all that much, take average on the stats and stuff. If the dragon has opposed immunities, drop it to significant resistances in each. Breath weapons are half/half, or the dragon can only pick one to use at a time. If one dragon gets spell casting at 4HD, and the other gets it at 8HD, the mix gets it at 6HD. Stuff like that. Just because I don't think the Half-Dragon template would really do justice to a pairing of two dragons.

[afroakuma]

Of course, if you mate a half-silver gold dragon with a half-gold silver dragon do you get an electrum dragon?

{table=head]Dragon|Brass|Bronze|Copper|Gold|Silver
Brass|Brass|Terne|Tombac|Aurichalcum|Billon
Bronze|Terne|Bronze|Guanín|Ormolu|Candidum
Copper|Tombac|Guanín|Copper|Shakudo|Niello
Gold|Aurichalcum|Ormolu|Shakudo|Gold|Electrum
Silver|Billon|Candidum|Niello|Electrum|Silver[/table]

Italicized metals have unique breath weapons; others have half-and-half. All hybrids have unique traits and spell-like abilities.

Also, for those who are curious, the gem dragons:

{table=head]Dragon|Amethyst|Crystal|Emerald|Sapphire|Topaz
Amethyst|Amethyst|Quartz|Prasiolite|Tanzanite|Citrine
Crystal|Quartz|Crystal|Beryl|Corundum|Peridot
Emerald|Prasiolite|Beryl|Emerald|Aquamarine|Heliodor
Sapphire|Tanzanite|Corundum|Aquamarine|Sapphire|Lapis Lazuli
Topaz|Citrine|Peridot|Heliodor|Lapis Lazuli|Topaz[/table]

Italicized gems have unique breath weapons; others have half-and-half. All hybrids have unique traits and spell-like abilities.

[boomwolf]

However scrapping this thread to make new dragons isn't the point. There's already a thread (a bit old) that has at least 30 new dragons. Pick a gem or a color and add dragon stats and you've got a new dragon "type." Works well for true dragons for those who can stand making all the charts. Plus you can pick up converted dragons on EnWord's forums (they even updated the Pink dragon from Dragon Magazine 156 a while back).

Nononono...you missed my point.

Making new dragon types only makes things WORSE

You need, in order for things to work out logically, have only ONE dragon, that is fully customizable with a table, probably with some results redirecting to the dragon's parents to "copy" information (a fire breather son's is more likely to be a fire breather etc...)

[super dark33]

{table=head]Dragon|Black|Blue|Green|Red|White
Black|Black|Ultramarine|Sabz|Crimson|Gray
Blue|Ultramarine|Blue|Teal|Violet|Azure
Green|Sabz|Teal|Green|Olive|Celadon
Red|Crimson|Violet|Olive|Red|Pink
White|Gray|Azure|Celadon|Pink|White[/table]

i use this chart to make a base:
Ultramarine:Breaths electric acid, lives on tropical islands
Sabz: breaths acid, lives near swamps and forests
Crimson:My favourit, breaths burning acid, lives in caves
Gray:Lives on mountaintops, gives words of sage advice, breaths cold acid
Teal:breaths electric acid gas, lives in oasises
Violet/purple:Both breath electric burning gas (science can explain almost evrything!) violat are shrinking violet (litteraly) and purple are impulsive fun-lovers. both live on hills
Azure:breathing cold thunders, always flying
Olive:live in deaserts , breathing burning acid gas
Celadon:breathing cold acid gas, living in cold places (but not too cold like white's)
Pink:Lives evrywhere, breath Fire or cold, but rathers to make art then fight

Each is immune to the types it breaths.
use the strong stats of each of the parent dragons to measure stats.

[Debihuman]

I don't really understand why making new dragon types would make it worse? Make what worse? Like I said earlier there will always be people who want to make new dragon types.

The difficulty comes from applying the parents' traits to the new offspring.

The sample Tiger dragon that I mentioned earlier has some stat block problems. It's missing Spell Resistance and Frightful Presence and some of its numbers are off. It is too small to have a tail attack as well.

Here's how I would have corrected it:

Spoiler

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Young Adult Tiger Dragon (Red/Black Hybrid Dragon)
Large Dragon (Water)
Hit Dice: 17d12+68 (178 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.
Armor Class: 26, touch 20, flat-footed 26
BAB/Grapple: +17/+21
Attack: Bite +23 (2d6+7)
Full Attack: Bite +23 melee (2d6+7) and 2 claws +18 melee (1d8+3) and 2 wings +18 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Special Attack: Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence (DC 19), Spell-like abilities, Spells
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5/Magic, Darkvision 120 ft., Immunity to acid, fire, sleep, and paralysis, Water Breathing
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +12
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +14, Move Silently +10
Feats: Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Wingover
Environment: Secluded swamps
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary or clutch (2-5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Triple Standard
Alignment: Usually Chaotic Evil

Breath Weapon (Su): A tiger dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of acidic, black fire (5d10 points of fire damage plus 5d6 points acid damage). Save for half damage (DC 22). The save is constitution based. If a tiger dragon is submerged when it uses this ability, opponents only take acid damage.

Water Breathing (Ex): The dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon as noted above, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

Charm Reptiles (Sp): The dragon can use this ability three times per day. It operates as a mass charm spell that works only on reptilian animals. The dragon can communicate with any charmed reptiles as though casting a speak with animals spell.

Frightful Presence (Ex): A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day-darkness (radius 10 feet per age category) and insect plague; 1/day-find the path and plant growth.

Spells: as a 3rd level sorcerer.

[Rob Roy]

{table=head]Dragon|Brass|Bronze|Copper|Gold|Silver
Brass|Brass|Terne|Tombac|Aurichalcum|Billon
Bronze|Terne|Bronze|Guanín|Ormolu|Candidum
Copper|Tombac|Guanín|Copper|Shakudo|Niello
Gold|Aurichalcum|Ormolu|Shakudo|Gold|Electrum
Silver|Billon|Candidum|Niello|Electrum|Silver[/table]

{table=head]Dragon|Amethyst|Crystal|Emerald|Sapphire|Topaz
Amethyst|Amethyst|Quartz|Prasiolite|Tanzanite|Citrine
Crystal|Quartz|Crystal|Beryl|Corundum|Peridot
Emerald|Prasiolite|Beryl|Emerald|Aquamarine|Heliodor
Sapphire|Tanzanite|Corundum|Aquamarine|Sapphire|Lapis Lazuli
Topaz|Citrine|Peridot|Heliodor|Lapis Lazuli|Topaz[/table]

What about when you want to interbreed two categories of dragons?

Ya exactly like gestalt.

Gestalt two monster classes then. Easy as that.

Spoiler

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I really can't stand people ignoring the spellchecker, even if you are from a non-english speaking country. Is using a spell checker so hard?

i use this chart to make a base:
Ultramarine:Breaths electric acid, lives on tropical islands
Sabz: breaths acid, lives near swamps and forests
Crimson:My favourit, breaths burning acid, lives in caves
Gray:Lives on mountaintops, gives words of sage advice, breaths cold acid
Teal:breaths electric acid gas, lives in oasises
Violet/purple:Both breath electric burning gas (science can explain almost evrything!) violat are shrinking violet (litteraly) and purple are impulsive fun-lovers. both live on hills
Azure:breathing cold thunders, always flying
Olive:live in deaserts , breathing burning acid gas
Celadon:breathing cold acid gas, living in cold places (but not too cold like white's)
Pink:Lives evrywhere, breath Fire or cold, but rathers to make art then fight

Each is immune to the types it breaths.
use the strong stats of each of the parent dragons to measure stats.

Correction

I use this chart to make a base:
Ultramarine: Breaths electric acid, lives on tropical islands
Sabz: breaths acid, lives near swamps and forests
Crimson: My favorite, breaths burning acid, lives in caves
Gray: Lives on mountaintops, gives words of sage advice, breaths cold acid
Teal: Breaths electric acid gas, lives in [/b]oasis’s[/b]
Violet/purple: Both breath electric burning gas (science can explain almost everything[!) [b]violet[b/]are shrinking violet (literally) and purple are impulsive fun-lovers. both live on hills.
Azure: breathing cold thunders, always flying
Olive: live in desserts , breathing burning acid gas
Celadon: breathing cold acid gas, living in cold places (but not too cold like white's)
Pink: Lives everywhere, breath Fire or cold, but would rather to make art then fight

[Debihuman]

While I like the chart for naming, it looks like it makes unique gem and metallic dragons rather than making actual hybrids.

Calling a half-gold/half-silver dragon an "electrum" dragon kinda does a disservice to someone who wants to create a full metallic dragon by that name. I could see full Electrum dragon's turning their snouts up at their half-breed relatives, whether deserved or not.

The Black/Red combo could be called by a variety of names. Crimson works just fine, but so does Sanguine. A half-red black dragon could be a Crimson and a half-black red dragon could be a Sanguine if you need that much detail. As a further example, a half-white blue dragon could be Azure, while a a half-blue white dragon could be a Celeste. I'm using colors and tinctures of heraldry for the names in case anyone was wondering.

How detailed depends on how much work you want to do.

To add another layer of complexity: while you don't have to make the base creature the mother, it does make a bit more genetic sense. Male dragons like to dominate every species around them by force if necessary. Genetically it makes sense but every campaign is different.

In such a universe, a half-black red dragon would always be the offspring of a male black dragon and a female red dragon where a half-red black dragon would always be the offspring of a male red dragon and a female black dragon.

It makes for more speculation about dragons and their lineage than it does for anything really substantive with half-dragons or hybrid dragons.

Debby

[DracoDei]

Ok, to expand on something Blade-smith said, here is how to handle averages.

Wyrmling starting HD and natural armor: Average of parents species. Note that all non-epic dragons (IE Prismatic, Force, and homebrew) dragons advance these at the same rate.



Wyrmling size: Average of parents (simple for same size).
Simple stuff
Small + Large = Medium
Tiny + Medium = Small
Size progression in both these cases should be the same as for an SRD dragon that starts at that size (I think there is no variation below this level of detail in the SRD).

Tiny + Small = 50%/50% chance split between the two? Tiny with Powerful Build*?
Medium + Large = 50%/50% chance split between the two? Medium with Powerful Build*?
In these cases, one could just use the above method for further progression (with powerful build retained), or one could apply the overall procedure at every age category substituting in for "wyrmling".
*EDIT: Note that it is especially important to decide if this effects the damage dice of natural attacks and when they are gained, and/or the size of the breath-weapon. "Vanilla" Powerful Build probably doesn't but that might be one way of tweaking things if they end up underpowered.


Ability score adjustments (or just skills if using the "standard" version): Average of parents at that age category. Round half of all fractions at a given age catagory up, and half down. "Odd man out" is at GMs discretion, or just flip a coin.'



EDIT:
Not as sure about his part, especially most of the numbers (I highlight the NUMBERS I am the least sure about in blue I think).
Breathweapon:
Cone + Cone = Cone
Line + Line = Line
Line + Cone = Can do either, but with 25% less range.
Hitpoint damage is a 50/50 mix of parents' most lethal types (unless cold/fire?).
If both parents can do energy damage then the total damage is based on the average of the two die sizes (and number of dice per age category), unless one parent is a White, Brass, or other dragon with 1 die of damage per age category, and the other has 2. In this case use the larger of the two die sizes but only 1 die of damage per age category.
Single-choice (so not like metallic dragons have) Ability score damage/drain and negative levels are halved (round down) and lumped in with a matching energy damage (halved) from the other parent if possible.
Alternate breath weapons, such as those of the metallics remain an alternate type, but with their saving throw DC reduced by 5.

Caster levels: Average of parents' species at a given age category. Spell list is anything on EITHER parents' list. "-" counts as 0 when being averaged with anything other than another "-".


Alignment: May select any combination of factors that either parents' species (not individual) has, or Neutral on any axis that those are opposed on. Once selected, the alignment is as immutable as any other dragon with that as their racial alignment raised in similar circumstances. Thus if a Red dragon mind-swapped himself with a Gold just before his new body was slain by the Gold's mate-to be, the eventual child of the two Gold souls could have any alignment at all. (Yes, I agree that many people may STRONGLY disagree with this example, that doesn't stop it being a good example).

SR: Average it. "-" counts as 0 when being averaged with anything other than another "-".

SLAs and other special abilities: X/magic DR should be easy enough to figure out, especially since all the SRD dragons probably have the same progression. Alignment based stuff would probably vary with the child's selected "racial" alignment. Other than this... the best I can guess is that they should get everything from both parents, but 1 age catagory later.

Example:
A brass/silver cross would have three breath-weapons:

1. A line/conethat deals a total of 1d8 damage per age category, cold and fire (?) , with a DC of 10 + (HD/2) + Con Modifier. Lengths reduced by 25%.
2. A cone of paralyzing gas with a DC of 5 + (HD/2) + Con Modifier. Full size.
3. A cone of sleep with a DC of 5 + (HD/2) + Con Modifier. Full size.[/B]

Size would be as per a brass dragon, with either powerful build at all age catagories, or at all catagories except 3 (Young), 5 (Young Adult), 7 to 9 (Mature Adult, Old, Very Old), and 11 (Wyrm). This would depend on which of my proposed variations you were using.

Starting hit-dice at wyrmling would be 5, with 3 more gained each additional age category.

Starting natural armor would be 4, increasing by 3 for each additional age category.

Starting ability scores for the prototypical version would be:
STR 13, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 13, CHR 12 (note that this is 2 odd and 4 even, rather than the typical 3/3 split... personally I don't care, but YMMV).

Casting: Same as either parent for levels. May select spells from the Sor/Wiz, Cleric, Animal, Chaos, Law, Knowledge, and Water lists.

Alignment: Any Good (unlikely to change throughout life).