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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    So me and a friend where having a conversation regarding war forged and the spell animate dead.

    Now animate dead mentions:
    "Skeletons

    A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
    Zombies

    A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy. "

    Is there any where that states weather or not a warforged has a skeleton or "true anatomy" I need the RAW rulings as we both have different RAI's about it.
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    A funny thing about Warforged - though they can die, they are never actually corpses. RAW, They are either inert (-1 to -9 HP) or destroyed (-10).

    Because of this, they remain legal targets for Raise Dead ("Dead creature touched") but not Animate Dead ("One or more corpses touched.")

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    There are, however, undead warforged. I believe they're known as Woeforged.

    I believe it's entirely up to the DM's call about whether they have a skeleton, but I haven't read the indepth fluff on warforged anatomy.

    I believe if they are susceptible to critical hits or precision damage, then they qualify as having an anatomy, which would be close enough for me to say they had a true one.

    Psyren, of course, brings up an interesting bit, but I'm not sure if it's actually specified if a destroyed warforged doesn't count as a corpse or a viable target for such spells.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2010-12-23 at 04:43 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    There are, however, undead warforged. I believe they're known as Woeforged.
    im sensing sarcasm here.


    Thank you Psyren for the info.
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    There are, however, undead warforged. I believe they're known as Woeforged.
    I remember those, but Forge of War has no stats for them or any information on how they are created. Animate Dead working on Warforged is still nil.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    ^: So is destroyed a defined term that precludes leaving an intact corpse then?
    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    im sensing sarcasm here.
    Don't blame me for the pseudo-pun.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2010-12-23 at 04:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    ^: So is destroyed a defined term that precludes leaving an intact corpse then?
    Don't look at me, they didn't even define corpse

    I'm going off the fact that "destroyed" undead can't be reanimated a second time. Per Libris Mortis:

    Quote Originally Posted by Libris Mortis
    What would disable or render unconscious a living creature destroys an undead creature beyond recall. (In game terms, when an undead is reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is permanently destroyed.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    im sensing sarcasm here.


    Thank you Psyren for the info.
    The Woeforged are mentioned in passing (more as a plot hook than anything) in The Forge of War. They aren't given any stats and the only thing it says is that they are healed by negative energy, hurt by positive energy, and look rusted and pitted. Also, they appear in the Mournland, which kind of means their creation is as mysterious as the creation of the normal warforged.

    As far as I can tell, this means that the creation of undead warforged was simply not done. There are no accounts of warforged animation happening as per The Forge of War (more common was warforged going inert and being thought dead on the battlefield, only to be repaired and conscripted to the other side).

    Also, the existence of the Woeforged is considered rather shocking. IMO this implies that undead warforged are either extremely uncommon or impossible to make.

    However, the RAW reading (destroyed rather than dead) does hint that a warforged corpse is a mass of stone, metal, and wood. Technically not a corpse.


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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I remember those, but Forge of War has no stats for them or any information on how they are created. Animate Dead working on Warforged is still nil.
    They could be created using some less common undead. The fluff for raise dead suggests that warforged have a soul if it can work on them. Therefore, they could plausibly become liches.

    They could also, I suppose, have any undead template added to them, since I believe they're "living creatures" even if they're technically living constructs.

    Of course, a vampire Warforged would be more laughable than scary, no matter how well he did in combat.

    Here's my take on it:

    Presumably, as constructs, warforged are basically a mass of wood and metal animated by some magical force, an elemental or whatever. I'm assuming this counts as it's "soul" since raise dead works on it. When you think about it, being animated by an elemental isn't significantly different from being animated by negative energy. I'd argue that a "zombie" warforged is just a dumb, slow-moving warforged that's healed by negative instead of positive energy. It's not "undead" it's just animated by something other than what makes it "alive."
    Last edited by Keinnicht; 2010-12-23 at 06:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Do they even have mouths? (Never paid all that much attention to warforged fluff).

    They could probably become most kinds of incorporeal undead. Warforged shadows and ghosts would be neat.
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Do they even have mouths? (Never paid all that much attention to warforged fluff).

    They could probably become most kinds of incorporeal undead. Warforged shadows and ghosts would be neat.
    I would say yes. Otherwise they couldn't use spells with Verbal component without some feat or shenanigans.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Do they even have mouths? (Never paid all that much attention to warforged fluff).

    They could probably become most kinds of incorporeal undead. Warforged shadows and ghosts would be neat.
    I'd like to see what the PCs would do when called upon to by a Last War general or his descendants who are being plagued by Warforged shadows or allips, who turn out to be a division he sent into battle as cannon fodder. Especially when his defense is "Well, they're not really people!"

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Do they even have mouths? (Never paid all that much attention to warforged fluff).

    They could probably become most kinds of incorporeal undead. Warforged shadows and ghosts would be neat.
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    (See on the left)

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    They do have mouths. They can ingest potions, and, according to Races of Eberron, they can even eat if they wanted to. Now how their bodies dispose of the food waste I do not know.


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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by AslanCross View Post
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    Looks like one hell of a metal show.


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    Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2010-12-23 at 06:10 PM.
    Multas Gratias to Kopaka for the great avatar.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Looks like one hell of a metal show.


    I'll get my coat.
    Now I want to make a Warforged Bardblade that uses the Horned Hand as its Iron Heart Surge.


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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Well, since animate dead wouldn't work, I'd just switch to animate object.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion View Post
    Well, since animate dead wouldn't work, I'd just switch to animate object.
    While it would have a crappy BAB, this does make it much stronger than a garden-variety zombie or skeleton. A Medium animated object has more HP, has 40 ft. speed (due to having legs) and can theoretically have constrict (due to having arms).


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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    I would say these "woeforged" are simply warforged with the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (1st-level only, switches the effects positive and negative energy have on you). However, since warforged heal only half the normal amount from healing spells (and this would carry over), I'd instead make it a trait. I.e. they don't have to spend a feat on it.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-12-23 at 09:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Do they even have mouths? (Never paid all that much attention to warforged fluff).

    They could probably become most kinds of incorporeal undead. Warforged shadows and ghosts would be neat.
    Although Swordwraith Warforged are probably the most thematic undead for them, at least in Eberron and spawned from the Last War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion View Post
    Well, since animate dead wouldn't work, I'd just switch to animate object.
    Or if you wanted an animated object with all of the thematic deliciousness of undead, Haunt Shift, from Libris Mortis, can do both for ya.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2010-12-23 at 09:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Keinnicht View Post
    They could be created using some less common undead. The fluff for raise dead suggests that warforged have a soul if it can work on them. Therefore, they could plausibly become liches.

    They could also, I suppose, have any undead template added to them, since I believe they're "living creatures" even if they're technically living constructs.

    Of course, a vampire Warforged would be more laughable than scary, no matter how well he did in combat.
    Hmmm that is an interesting idea

    But they are constructs with the living construct subtype so im not sure if it would work
    Last edited by FelixG; 2010-12-23 at 09:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Keinnicht View Post
    Of course, a vampire Warforged would be more laughable than scary, no matter how well he did in combat.
    Really?

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    Cause the mental image I get is the above, but a little bit toothier

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Keinnicht View Post
    hey're technically living constructs.

    Of course, a vampire Warforged would be more laughable than scary, no matter how well he did in combat.
    I vant to suck your Hydraulic fluid doesn't have the same ring to it.
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    I vant to suck your Hydraulic fluid doesn't have the same ring to it.
    Yes but the fanged warforged chasing commoners around going "Nom nom nom" is so adorable!
    Quote Originally Posted by Esser-Z View Post
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    I had thought there was a component that gave Warforged a bite attack but i cant find any reference to one.
    Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    I think its called Jaws of Death but I might be thinking of the wrong thing, either way its a feat in Races of Ebberon that gives a bite attack.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by GodGoblin View Post
    I think its called Jaws of Death but I might be thinking of the wrong thing, either way its a feat in Races of Ebberon that gives a bite attack.
    No, that is it - i was thinking it was a component for some reason.
    Thankyou
    Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    I think from what other people have said that Warforged can be made into Undead-like creatures. The process can't be accomplished by Animate Dead though. It takes Create Undead or Create Greater Undead to make a Woeforged.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    I would say these "woeforged" are simply warforged with the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (1st-level only, switches the effects positive and negative energy have on you). However, since warforged heal only half the normal amount from healing spells (and this would carry over), I'd instead make it a trait. I.e. they don't have to spend a feat on it.
    I'd like to point out that TTS doesn't, according to the text, cause positive energy to hurt you - it just causes negative energy to heal you.

    Unless they applied some sort of errata to it, a living being with it can thus be healed by both.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    I'd like to point out that TTS doesn't, according to the text, cause positive energy to hurt you - it just causes negative energy to heal you.

    Unless they applied some sort of errata to it, a living being with it can thus be healed by both.
    Nope. The summary in the table just mentions the healing part, but the feat always spelled it out fully.

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    Default Re: Question regarding warforged and undead[3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Nope. The summary in the table just mentions the healing part, but the feat always spelled it out fully.
    Weird. Yeah, guess my memory's going bad.

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