[3.5/Paladins] what if "Detect Evil" worked on actions, not beings?

[Ialdabaoth]

What if, when you cast "detect evil", you could not tell a person's alignment, but you COULD tell if the action they were currently performing (or were about to perform) was wholly good, mostly good, mostly neutral, mostly evil, or wholly evil?

While concentrating, you could detect that evil actions were about to be committed, and could sense the lingering "aura" taint of previous evil actions, depending on their severity.

How would this change how Paladins are played?

[true_shinken]

Heroes of Horror actually deals with this exact development.

[ericgrau]

A phylactery of faithfulness does this too but only on your own actions.

[The Glyphstone]

A phylactery of faithfulness does this too but only on your own actions.

Technically, a Phylactery of faithfulness does it pre-emptively, by warning you beforehand if something will go against your code or those of your deity.

[FelixG]

Technically, a Phylactery of faithfulness does it pre-emptively, by warning you beforehand if something will go against your code or those of your deity.

Love this item.

This is the reason as soon as i check my players CSs i erase their alignments and keep track of them myself. I have never seen a paladin by one of them so fast in my life

for the first few levels he was really scared and focused on his decisions to make sure he didnt screw up and earn any Evil or Chaos points (which I never told them the levels of) until he got a Phylactery

[Roderick_BR]

I think that's how it worked in AD&D. The paladin could "detect evil intentions" instead of casting "detect evil". Basically, it didn't tell you if someone was evil or not, but it pinged in your radar if he was going to do something evil.
So, that guy drinking won't register as an "evil detection", even though he's a CE assassin. The instant he picks up his knife and decides to "avilliate" the barman of some coins and hit points, your detect would notice him. Worked in neutral characters about to commite an evil act as well.
I'd allow this change as a DM. It's kinda a "guide" for the player, but it's less abssurd than how the detect/smite currently works.

[Callista]

I think paladins as a class would change from "seek out and destroy evil creatures" to get more of a tendency to attach themselves to and protect populations of people--like the town sheriff rather than like the crusading knight. If you can switch on Detect Evil, scan the buildings while you're on patrol, and detect evil things going on, you'd make an absolutely wonderful beat cop. The guy who beats his wife in secret can no longer hide from you. The burglar who's stealing the commoner's life savings can be as stealthy as he likes, and he'll still stand out like a beacon. And with the high Charisma score, you'd generally be able to bring in criminals without violence, too. Sure, you can't detect Chaos like you can detect evil; so keeping order will still come down to normal police work--but then again, to a paladin, chaos isn't nearly as harmful as evil and usually doesn't constitute an emergency the way evil deeds do.

[Keinnicht]

Really though, most chaos that would actually present a real safety problem is also evil. Imagine a paladin bursting into your house and screaming "I HEARD YOU DON'T LIKE THE GOVERNMENT!" and stabbing you.

That paladin isn't going to be a paladin too much longer.

Also I agree it has to apply to intentions, not actions that are currently happening. Otherwise it would be kind of stupid.

"Somebody stabs the bartender."
"I use detect evil."
"Yup, stabbing the bartender is evil."

[Burner28]

What if, when you cast "detect evil", you could not tell a person's alignment, but you COULD tell if the action they were currently performing (or were about to perform) was wholly good, mostly good, mostly neutral, mostly evil, or wholly evil?

While concentrating, you could detect that evil actions were about to be committed, and could sense the lingering "aura" taint of previous evil actions, depending on their severity.

How would this change how Paladins are played?

Though it might be somewhat interesting, I really don't think that is a good idea as that would mean that it is possible for people that genuinely and in general don't mean harm to others to ping as evil despite the contrary. Hypothetically speaking it is possible in this situation for someone who who is normally not morally prone to doing evil deeds to get somehow blackmailed into doing an evil deed. At the same time it is possible for generally malicious people not to ping as evil despite the fact they are a danger to the well-being of others just because they don't have an evil intention like 11% of the time For example an assasin.

[Callista]

Yes; the smartest sociopaths would almost never detect as evil under such a system because they tend to carefully monitor themselves and commit evil acts only in circumstances where they will not be detected. You'd mostly catch uninhibited and impulsive evil acts, but not the worst ones--the ones that are planned out and carefully covered up by the most cold-blooded people out there.

[Godskook]

They made this into a movie.

Yes; the smartest sociopaths would almost never detect as evil under such a system because they tend to carefully monitor themselves and commit evil acts only in circumstances where they will not be detected. You'd mostly catch uninhibited and impulsive evil acts, but not the worst ones--the ones that are planned out and carefully covered up by the most cold-blooded people out there.

I'd disagree. Such a 'smart' sociopath would spend a lot of time plotting his crimes in order to ensure his escape, and thus, ping as evil an incredibly long time in advance.

[Callista]

Is thinking about doing an evil act still evil, though? Because in that case, anyone who ever fantasizes about strangling his boss would cloud up the radar something fierce. I think it wouldn't work unless the spell detected only actions, not thoughts. (But I guess casing the house of your next serial-killing victim could count as an evil act.)

A homebrew "Detect Evil Act" spell would be really cool, though. It could be a 1st-level cleric, paladin, and adept spell, and would be really useful to the town guard. Maybe it could even be metamagiced to extend the range as an automatic alarm system. But there'd be a lot of "spam" on the radar, too--minor things that are still evil but don't need the attention of the town guard--so there'd have to be aura strength levels so they could tell what kind of thing was actually worthy of their attention. You don't want to send out the town guard just because some guy is cheating on his wife...

[Ialdabaoth]

I think that's how it worked in AD&D. The paladin could "detect evil intentions" instead of casting "detect evil". Basically, it didn't tell you if someone was evil or not, but it pinged in your radar if he was going to do something evil.
So, that guy drinking won't register as an "evil detection", even though he's a CE assassin. The instant he picks up his knife and decides to "avilliate" the barman of some coins and hit points, your detect would notice him. Worked in neutral characters about to commite an evil act as well.
I'd allow this change as a DM. It's kinda a "guide" for the player, but it's less abssurd than how the detect/smite currently works.

Hrm - which brings up an interesting idea, for how "Smite Evil" could be worked.

If "Detect Evil" only detects evil actions about to be performed, being performed, or that were recently performed, then "Smite Evil" becomes almost a tool of karmic justice - you can only "Smite" a being who has committed an evil act and escaped punishment for it.

That actually works a LOT better for the Paladin mindset.

[Callista]

Not really, because the aura would fade and then if they got away with it long enough you wouldn't be able to smite them anymore. It'd be like having to catch a puppy in the act before you can scold him for chewing on your shoes.

If the aura sticks around, of course, then it's identical to the normal Detect Evil for all practical purposes. It would ping on anybody who's evil because all evil people have done evil things and not repented (with some possible rare exceptions in cases where they would've done evil if they could've, but were constantly prevented).

I'm pretty sure there's already a spell that works like a phylactery of faithfulness and answers ethical questions or at least gives hints... I forget. I think it's a low-level paladin or cleric spell... anybody know what spell I'm talking about? A scroll of that could be a good alternative to a phylactery of faithfulness.