List of low-tier gestalts

[noiadodh]

please post your suggestions using 2 or even more base classes

1) it is possible to aim for high tier 4 or even low tier 3 with this method?

2) which would be the ideal (both fluff and crunch) choice for each of these classes:

Fighter
Monk
Ninja
Samurai
Paladin

4) would Ranger//Scout be too OP compared to gestalt using classes of item 2?

3) this method is viable or its better to just use homebrew (ex: this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730 tier 3 paladin?)

[Salanmander]

Are you talking about aiming to combine low-tier classes using gestalt to make the result comprable to a tier 3 or 4 non-gestalt class? As in "A fighter//monk is about as powerful as a bard"?

[noiadodh]

a fighter//monk is probably weaker than a bard, but yeah, that's my original idea..

[HunterOfJello]

Rogue can work well with lots of builds. It gives highest skill points, light armor, simple weapons, high reflex, lots of nice bonus abilities, and Sneak Attack Progression. (Note: Using UA, it can trade sneak attack for fighter bonus feats).

Fighter can work well with many builds also. It gives bonus feats, d10 hit die, all armor prof, martial weapon prof., and high fortitude. (Note: Using uA, it can trade the bonus feats for a rogue's sneak attack progression.)

Paladin 2 dip is great for a character with decent CHA.

Monk dips can give great bonus abilities and great saves all around.

~


A Rogue/Swashbuckler//Warmage using Daring Outlaw could make a fun offensive character. They can lob damage spells efficiently at enemies and still do well in melee combat with their Sneak Attack and Swashbuckler abilities. The character would be using Int, Cha, Dex and Con which is slightly MAD, but not too badly.


A Fighter//Monk could actually be very efficient. If you read the text for Flurry of Blows, it's based off of your BAB, which would be improved by the Fighter levels. If you can get your DM to ignore alignment restrictions for the Monk, then going into Barbarian could be helpful.

[Fouredged Sword]

The tier system is about versitility. Adding another class set to your build can up your tier, but not always. Adding two diverse classes ups your tier, so long as you add functionality to the class. Adding two tier three classes is likely to be tier 2. The big jump is from tier 2 to tier 1. Tier one is all about being able to help in ANY situation. Tier 2 + Tier 2 =/= tier 1. You see the same thing will lower tiers as well. Tier 4 + Tier 4 = Tier 4 normaly. Also you can't get to much better than tier one. Add two tier ones andyou just last longer before you run out of world altering spells. There are exceptions, but I bet this rule set holds.

[noiadodh]

The tier system is about versitility. Adding another class set to your build can up your tier, but not always. Adding two diverse classes ups your tier, so long as you add functionality to the class. Adding two tier three classes is likely to be tier 2. The big jump is from tier 2 to tier 1. Tier one is all about being able to help in ANY situation. Tier 2 + Tier 2 =/= tier 1. You see the same thing will lower tiers as well. Tier 4 + Tier 4 = Tier 4 normaly. Also you can't get to much better than tier one. Add two tier ones andyou just last longer before you run out of world altering spells. There are exceptions, but I bet this rule set holds.

i know my OP was 'TL/DR worthy', but I'm not aiming for T2/T1 at all..

[Fouredged Sword]

Just mix any two. Keep in mind that adding features works best when you mix things up.

Fighter + samurai = fighter
fighter + ninja = stealthy mystic fighter.

[Lateral]

Adding two tier three classes is likely to be tier 2.

I gotta dispute this point. What makes a tier 2 a tier 2 is that it's so powerful- as powerful as a tier 1, but less versatile. Tier 3s are usually more versatile, but have a lot less raw power. Therefore, two tier 3s give you an amazingly versatile PC, but not enough sheer power to reach tier 2.

[JaronK]

Fighter//Monk is actually pretty decent if you then take Shou Disciple levels, because Monk combos well in Gestalt with full BAB classes. Paladin//Monk with Serenity might be pretty cool too. CW Samurai//Zhentarium Fighter would be impressive at level 9+ against people who aren't immune to fear (so... just some things).

Ninja would combo well with pretty much anything that gives it a lot of combat punch.

JaronK

[Prime32]

Something like wizard//cleric wouldn't actually gain that much power, since it can't cast any more spells per round than normal.

Wizard//factotum on the other hand...

[Salanmander]

Something like wizard//cleric wouldn't actually gain that much power, since it can't cast any more spells per round than normal.

Wizard//factotum on the other hand...

The OP is looking for gestalts from /low/ tier things. The goal is to get from tier 5/6 to tier 3/4. (If you understood this and were responding to something else, I apologize, but it's something that this thread needs a reminder of anyway, it seems.)

As far as my thoughts on this, I'm not real sure. I can see monk/healer being high T4 or low T3, it certainly has the versatility going for it. Or, if you want to go more specialized and powerful, monk/fighter (while being very...brittle, it needs to be built well) will almost certainly compare well with a barbarian. It's got the durability of the monk and the ability to actually hit things and use very feat-heavy builds of the fighter.

Swashbuckler/Ninja would probably also be T4, though I can't really see it being T3. It doesn't really gain any versatility over the ninja, it just gets better at poking things with sticks.

[Incanur]

Fighter/monk would at least be solidly tier 4. Fighter brings the offense the monk needs to the table. MADness still hurts, but in highish point game and/or with Kung Fu Genius, it could produce a potent character.

[Urpriest]

I could see Barbarian/Adept being Tier 3 in the right light.

[Incanur]

I'd want to see them in practice. Fighter/monk or paladin/monk might match the warblade. The paladin/monk in particular has incredible survivability combined with the added versatility of spells. Adept plus any of the classes listed in the original post could possibly break into tier 3. Adept/fighter still has horrendous skills but more combat ability than the bard in certain respects.

I've toyed with low-tier gestalts as a way to balance classes like the fighter. Fighter/rogue always struck me as appropriate for the skillful hero archetype. Would that be tier 3?

[Mongoose87]

A Swift Hunter//Rogue would be nice, since the feat lets your precision damage apply to favored enemies.

[Keinnicht]

Something like wizard//cleric wouldn't actually gain that much power, since it can't cast any more spells per round than normal.

Damage per round is not the be all and end all of power. A wizard/cleric can just keep going, and going, and going. He's like a magical energizer bunny.

[Lans]

The tier system is about versitility.

Not completely true, tiers 4+ are the ones that factor versatility, and T3 tend to be more versatile than T2 in a lot of situations.

Fighter/monk would at least be solidly tier 4. Fighter brings the offense the monk needs to the table. MADness still hurts, but in highish point game and/or with Kung Fu Genius, it could produce a potent character.

Or you could just ignore the abilities that are wisdom based and wear some damn armor. Theres enough ACFs for monk that you only loose the AC boost.

[Incanur]

Wizard/clerc? Go archivist/wizard. Aside from wading into a mess of prestige classes and multiclassing, nothing beats that for magical power. Well, archivist/beguiler has certain advantages.

Being MAD kills, people. Remember that. Unfortunately, gestalting low-tier classes typically only increases the fury. It's telling that there aren't any Int-based casters below tier 3. Everyone who wants skills needs Int, much as anyone who doesn't want to die needs Con. Adding Str, Wis, and Cha on top of that makes life difficult in many campaigns.

[elonin]

For the weakest in gestalt choose two very similar. Rogue monk seems weak as a gestalt even though I like to play rogues.

[Incanur]

For the weakest in gestalt choose two very similar. Rogue monk seems weak as a gestalt even though I like to play rogues.

Monks and rogues are similar? Monks try to tank and fail or get buffed and smash everything. Rogues snipe, flank and leverage skills. They fear anything that requires a Fort or Will save. Monk would considerably boost rogue's survivability as well as provide a valuable source of extra attacks. The character would be MADder than hatter, but again Kung Fu Genius/Cardamine Monk helps. Say whatever you want against the monk, but it's good at staying alive. (You get an enhancement bonus to speed so you can RUN AWAY.) Adding monk to any class that does anything worthwhile and dislikes dying gives a boost.

Ignoring NPC classes, the weakest gestalt would obvious be fighter/samurai.

[Grynning]

Ignoring NPC classes, the weakest gestalt would obvious be fighter/samurai.

Actually, Fighter/Aristocrat or Fighter/Expert would be better than Fighter/Samurai in some ways. Better skill points and saves. Zhentarim Soldier ACF for fighter does offer some interesting combo potential with Samurai's Staredown abilities though.

Adept is on its own is usually considered tier 4 due to a fairly good spell list and progression.

[Maho-Tsukai]

The sad thing is that a gestalt commoner/adapt is actually BETTER then a Fighter/Samurai getsalt. I mean adapts get some nice spells(polymorph, for example) and commoner gets handle animal which is a highly abuseable and versatile skill. Simply put, while NPC classes are ment to be inferor a gestalt commoner/adapt will have FAR more versatility then a fighter/samurai would have....sad but true.

As for other gestalts a warlock///Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter/Freedom while I have no idea how good it would be seems like it could be fun. You can't cast in heavy armor(at least from what I know) but you can gete ability to cast in up to medium with a feat if I remember. The warrlock can be fairly decient at melee with the right invocaotion and the class has cha synergy with the Paladin. Simply put, a warlock/pally(of Tyranny/Slaughter/Freedom) will have all kinds of options ranging from melee(fuled by some ridicilous smiting due to cha),to ranged combat(eldritch blast.), to invocations, to Pally spells to turn/rebuke, to use-magic device shenanigans and even some Diplomancy. Oh, and you will have awesome saves, too. So while he I am not sure how optimal this gestalt would be it looks kinda fun.

[Salanmander]

Wizard/clerc? Go archivist/wizard. Aside from wading into a mess of prestige classes and multiclassing, nothing beats that for magical power. Well, archivist/beguiler has certain advantages.

Being MAD kills, people. Remember that.

A slight caveat: having two casting sides, that use two different casting stats, is not horrible if you avoid spells that allow saves on one side. For example, if your wizard spells are all about battlefield control, and your cleric spells are all about buffing and keeping people alive, then starting int 17, wis 14 is /completely reasonable/. Sure, your other stats aren't quite as good, but it's not instant op-death.

[elonin]

Monks and rogues are similar? Monks try to tank and fail or get buffed and smash everything. Rogues snipe, flank and leverage skills. They fear anything that requires a Fort or Will save. Monk would considerably boost rogue's survivability as well as provide a valuable source of extra attacks. The character would be MADder than hatter, but again Kung Fu Genius/Cardamine Monk helps. Say whatever you want against the monk, but it's good at staying alive. (You get an enhancement bonus to speed so you can RUN AWAY.) Adding monk to any class that does anything worthwhile and dislikes dying gives a boost.

Ignoring NPC classes, the weakest gestalt would obvious be fighter/samurai.

Thought that this would be so much worse at mad than other combos. There are some good abilities like flurry and speed and better base saves. There are also some stinkers. For example improved grapple, the wisdom to ac and stunning blow are all aimed at dump stats.

[Blackfang108]

Actually, wouldn't the weakest be CW Samurai//Truenamer?

[true_shinken]

Actually, wouldn't the weakest be CW Samurai//Truenamer?

Truenamer is not 'weak' - it's unplayable unless you use high skill optimization.
If you do, it's easily tier 4.

[Grendus]

Rogue/Swashbuckler//Warlock works out pretty decently. You get a rogue's skills (well, swashbuckler actually, you take Daring Outlaw at level 6 and continue as swashbuckler for hit dice and BAB) and utility, but augment their abilities with warlock invocations. Warlock gets you the ability to take 10 on UMD (which, while UMD is normally dropped from tier considerations, is very powerful) as well as the ability to craft any magic item by making a UMD check.

You end up one short of full BAB, mostly d10 hit dice, tons of skill points, and very SAD (pump con and charisma, make sure you don't have a dex penalty, profit). You get less damage than a straight rogue/swashbuckler, but that's augmented by eldritch blast's base damage (go hellfire warlock for even more blasty goodness) and being able to do lots of other stuff. IMO, comparable to the duskblade at least, which is T3. Rogues skills give them the capacity to cover where their limited invocations leave off, while a warlock's eldritch blasts and invocations give rogues something to do besides moving to flank and then full attacking.

[Lateral]

Actually, wouldn't the weakest be CW Samurai//Truenamer?

No. Not even. I'd have to say evoker//kineticist with 3 int and the Energy Affinity, Energy Substitution ACFs, with all feats spent on metamagic and metapsi. It's like a gestalt commoner//commoner without Handle Animal!

[Re'ozul]

This is something I've been thinking about, but as I am still rather new to everything would like to have opinions on.

Create Gestalt or Multi-Gestalt characters to offset great Tier differences in Parties. This will most likely by no means create actual balance and was more of a number game I played in my head for a while now.

Take the normal tiers, disregarding Tier 6 (Bumb it up into 5 or consider it Power .5) and inverse the numbers.

Lets call it Powers, so Tier 1 becomes Power 5, 2 becomes 4 etc.

In any normal game, take the highest "Power"-ed class someone wants to play and make that the limit. (Or give a limit as that is easier if said player wants to multiclass later)

Then give people the possibility to Gestalt Classes with Power-ratings that add up to that number.
Of course there is the possibility to Gestalt 5 Power 1 [Tier 5] classes for 1 wizard. I have no idea how that would influence the game.
In every level the total Gestalt power can never be higher than that number. It is not possible to gestalt later (if the set power number is 5 and someone started as a single class wizard, they wouldn't be able to spontaneously gestalt if they multiclass into something with less power so anyone multiclassing into lower classes would take at least an arithmetic hit to their "score")

Of course there would be problems as someone who starts with a Gestalt and wants to multiclass one stream into something higher would also have to multiclass the other stream into something lower and the afforementioned 5 class Power 1 gestalt would never be able to multiclass in anything higher in any stream as that would rob the other streams of necessary numbers.

Well, this is it.
Tell me if this is unusable (what with seemingly taking away some freedom in multiclassing) or any other problems you see.

Again this is not really intended for usage, but merely an idea and is not supposed to up lower classes to the big guns. I merely thought of it as a sort of minor equalizer.

[eggynack]

That basic idea was already proposed on the tier list for classes.

Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

You can find the whole thing here