Explosive Runes Problems

[Keinnicht]

Now, how on earth do you get around Explosive Runes? I was trying to figure this out the other day, as I was having the bad guys stick parchment with Explosive Runes on it to the doors of important areas. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, it just seemed like a reasonable protective measure.

Then the playing started, and this trap seems far nastier. Boom, boom, boom, boom. After some debate, I ruled the characters could specifically look at such a "sign" without reading it (Because, if you're literate, you generally automatically read any words you see.)

Is this a fair ruling? Should I just stop doing it altogether? I'm wondering if I'm crossing the line between "bad guy with reasonable defenses" and "DM being an *******."

[Claudius Maximus]

It's only a 10-foot explosion. If they can spot the runes from more than 10 feet away (which seems reasonable if they expect to find them on doors) they can cast Detect Magic or something to determine its explosivity, at which point they can get a paintbrush and avert their gaze while painting over it, thus disabling it.

I'm sure there are other methods.

[JaronK]

You can read the runes from 15 feet away.

JaronK

[woodenbandman]

Yeah explosive runes is basically in the game so that the DM can be a ****.

[Curmudgeon]

The issue is how far away the Runes are legible. If you make them small the character will need a reasonable Spot check to read them from more than 10' away (say DC = # of feet from the Runes). Or any Rogue can avoid such magic traps with a successful Search check.

[Illithid Savant]

So let me get this straight. You put in a cheap trap not once, but multiple times, and you're wondering what kind of houserule to use so that the players don't die? Why not just not use explosive runes?

[tyckspoon]

This sounds like one of the many many things that can be solved by the Summon Elemental reserve feat. Have your 100% expendable minion go up and read it for you.

Alternatively, they are just standard magic traps. And your Rogue doesn't even need to Search for them, you already know the bloody thing is there. Roll a Disable Device, beat the DC, move on. Or roll a Disable Device, fail the check, set off the runes, Evasion your way past taking any damage, move on.

[Shadowleaf]

So let me get this straight. You put in a cheap trap not once, but multiple times, and you're wondering what kind of houserule to use so that the players don't die? Why not just not use explosive runes?

Because sometimes in-game justification is more important than out of game annoyance. If your character was able to put Explosive Runes everywhere, then why wouldn't he want to do it?

[Keinnicht]

So let me get this straight. You put in a cheap trap not once, but multiple times, and you're wondering what kind of houserule to use so that the players don't die? Why not just not use explosive runes?

I wasn't asking for house rules. I was asking if my players were being uncreative, or if this was basically a "you're screwed" trap.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh, Disable Device with Trapfinding?

[Claudius Maximus]

I still think what I said is possible, even by RAW. They might not actually find the trap in a search check sense, but they should probably be able to guess there's an Explosive Runes trap wherever they see a sheet of parchment nailed to a door. So Detect Magic from a safe distance to confirm (and that's even optional) and then "disable" it by painting or folding or otherwise rendering the runes impossible to see.

[Shadowleaf]

I still think what I said is possible, even by RAW. They might not actually find the trap in a search check sense, but they should probably be able to guess there's an Explosive Runes trap wherever they see a sheet of parchment nailed to a door. So Detect Magic from a safe distance to confirm (and that's even optional) and then "disable" it by painting or folding or otherwise rendering the runes impossible to see.

Yep. This pretty much covers it. You could also just open the door without reading the runes - just look at your feet and find the doornob.

[Salanmander]

I play a game called capture the flag with stuff that features "glyphs" that can do nasty things to anyone who sees them (defined as "you can see it if it is in your line of sight and you can tell what glyph it is", basically). Common ways to get around these are

1) look the other way (works in D&D)
2) take off your glasses, or put on your friend's glasses (works in D&D if you have a high-tech setting, or some other way of blurring vision. cast darkness?)
3) use Goombah's Belt of Humiliating Protection (D&D analogue would be casting some sort of magical protective spell)
4) look down, use a dispel wand, which is touch range and has no negative effects when you dispel a glyph (similar in D&D, but you want to dispel magic from range)

[FelixG]

I wasn't asking for house rules. I was asking if my players were being uncreative, or if this was basically a "you're screwed" trap.

Your players are just uncreative.

[Fizban]

It's only a 10-foot explosion. If they can spot the runes from more than 10 feet away (which seems reasonable if they expect to find them on doors) they can cast Detect Magic or something to determine its explosivity, at which point they can get a paintbrush and avert their gaze while painting over it, thus disabling it.

I'm sure there are other methods.

While this is probably the best answer, there is a slight problem with it:

The runes detonate when read, dealing 6d6 points of force damage. Anyone next to the runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage.

By definition, if you can read the runes, you take damage. RAI may have been a 10' radius explosion, but RAW says that if you can write it across the moon's surface then you just became the next BBEG

For other methods of avoidance, there's just not reading them. Reading may be habitual for those who can do it, but writing is likely not as ubiquitous as is in the modern world. At the very worst you could consider it a gaze attack, allowing people to avert their eyes for a 50% avoidance chance, or use a mirror. Alternatively, close your eyes before walking up close enough that the runes are out of your line of sight before picking the lock. You said they were written on paper stuck to the door, and your players didn't think of just blasting it to bits/off the door? Finally, it's a 1st level spell and a DC 15 dispel check to erase the runes, even if your rogue can't disarm them (which he can, because spell traps have ridiculously low DCs to disarm). I'm gonna have to lay this one on your party. Used as written it can be a nuisance, but the way you used the runes, they should have been much easier to pass than normal.

Tangent: while we're talking about Explosive Rune bombs, I've got a character idea I've been brewing. It's pretty simple: buy a Spellblade that makes you immune to Explosive Runes, then write runes all over your clothing, equipment, fill up books, and so on. In combat, you simply walk up and start reading runes. Everyone within 10' takes 6d6*your reading speed of damage. while the spellblade protects you and your equipment (including the stuff the runes were written on!).

[Anxe]

Why don't the players start taking the Runes down? Then when they get to the BBEG's throne room they can thrown the stack of papers in his face and run for it.

[Lans]

Barbarian or totemist with maxed out spellcraft?

[Thespianus]

Barbarian

+1

Made me LOL. I've been wondering if there's a way to exploit the illiteracy of Barbarians: This is at least one way. :)

[mootoall]

+1

Made me LOL. I've been wondering if there's a way to exploit the illiteracy of Barbarians: This is at least one way. :)

I was going to suggest trapkiller as well, but then I remembered that doesn't work with magical traps ...

[Forged Fury]

Why don't the players start taking the Runes down? Then when they get to the BBEG's throne room they can thrown the stack of papers in his face and run for it.

It seems like this would be a perfect time for the Wu Jen's Servant Horde spell. Once you've been exposed to the trap once, pull down the remaining ones without reading them and then have your horde of unseen servants hold them in front of the faces of future opponents.

[boomwolf]

Explosive runes is a nice trap spell, and used well most DM's CAN make it an unbeatable defense method for a dungeon. (written as a huge rune right around corners, etc... also it game me an idea on another way to screw true sight, use illusions to cover explosive runes...)

HOWEVER, most players SHOULD understand the trick early on and make preparations for that spell, at least after they got hit once or twice. so unless you are REALLY cheap about it, they should be able to beat it.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, I think it'll be balanced if no save affects 5' and ref save affects 10'

You can tell there are runes there (try Spot vs Fine size Hide), but you can't read it until you get to 5'.

This makes it more of a use for trapping books.

[Talon Sky]

By definition, if you can read the runes, you take damage. RAI may have been a 10' radius explosion, but RAW says that if you can write it across the moon's surface then you just became the next BBEG

I....am doing this in my next campaign.

[Keinnicht]

I....am doing this in my next campaign.

The RAW actually says you can't do that, unless the moon suddenly weighs less than ten pounds.

[mootoall]

The RAW actually says you can't do that, unless the moon suddenly weighs less than ten pounds.

I dunno, the moon's not actually on the planet, and if its own gravity is weak enough to make it weight only ten pounds ...

[Dvil]

I dunno, the moon's not actually on the planet, and if its own gravity is weak enough to make it weight only ten pounds ...

However, given that the moon's probably moving quite fast, and that the gravitational force (ie weight) required to keep it in a circular orbit is (mv^2)/r, that's quite a massive force. Unless the moon's incredibly not-dense (the exact word for this escapes me) and a large distance from the planet, of course.

[ericgrau]

Simple you say there's writing on the wall and wait for the PCs to say that they read it, or start saying "Would you like to go over there and read it?" for every piece of text they find.

Btw I think spot gets used about 10 times as often as it should. By RAW it's primarily for noticing hiding creatures and sometimes for creatures that are unintentionally hard to see. It doesn't give you telescope/microscope eyes without magical aid. Ok there's text in plain sight. PC rolls a spot check. DM says you don't need to roll to notice it, it's in plain sight. PC says what does it say. DM says you need to get closer so you can read it. There, see, you don't need to roll dice every time a PC turns his head.

[Fable Wright]

The RAW actually says you can't do that, unless the moon suddenly weighs less than ten pounds.

Well, you're only writing it on an incredibly thin layer of dust on the moon. As the moon has no wind, and things weigh less on the moon, you probably could do it...

[ericgrau]

Random meteor #4,748,339,027.

[2xMachina]

Simple you say there's writing on the wall and wait for the PCs to say that they read it, or start saying "Would you like to go over there and read it?" for every piece of text they find.

Btw I think spot gets used about 10 times as often as it should. By RAW it's primarily for noticing hiding creatures and sometimes for creatures that are unintentionally hard to see. It doesn't give you telescope/microscope eyes without magical aid. Ok there's text in plain sight. PC rolls a spot check. DM says you don't need to roll to notice it, it's in plain sight. PC says what does it say. DM says you need to get closer so you can read it. There, see, you don't need to roll dice every time a PC turns his head.

I don't know. Reading normal size text from more than 10' away can be difficult. You can see squiggles on paper from 30' away, but can't read it.

Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

Just take 10? If you have enough spot ranks, you can read from further, and it doesn't blow up in their face

The text would be diminutive, so Hide is 10+16 -5(dex-)= 21
while your Spot is 10+Wis+Spot-1.