Words of Creation?

[Saint GoH]

A player came forward with this feat from BoED, asking about using it with her bard. At first, it seems fine to me, but then I read what words of creation actually do.

As far as the wording goes, when you use Words of Creation with Inspire Courage, you take 3d4 sub-dual damage and double the effect of your inspire courage. Simple. However, I also know this player was asking about Badges of Valor and has used Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium.

Inspire Courage buffing little hack.... I mean, what?

So here's my question, I'm sure it is listed in a DMG somewhere, but what order of operations do you follow for Words of Creation? Does she apply the +1 from Inspirational boost, the +1 from Badge of valor, then the 2x from Word of Creation? Or is the 2x applied first then the addition on top of it like normal maths?

[Douglas]

I don't think there is an official explicit rule for this sort of thing. The closest I know of is an FAQ answer to a question about combining fire resistance and fire vulnerability, and that answer said essentially "apply effects in whichever order is most beneficial to the creature that has them". In this case, that would mean adding the various +1s and then doubling.

Yes, this is extremely powerful. Yes, this is commonly ruled the other way by a lot of DMs. Now for real brokenly powerful buffing, add on Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting), Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic), a Vest of Legends (DMG2), and an appropriate masterwork instrument (Complete Adventurer).

[tyckspoon]

So here's my question, I'm sure it is listed in a DMG somewhere, but what order of operations do you follow for Words of Creation? Does she apply the +1 from Inspirational boost, the +1 from Badge of valor, then the 2x from Word of Creation? Or is the 2x applied first then the addition on top of it like normal maths?

It's not. The closest there has ever been to official rules on the subject was a Sage Advice article that said effect order can be determined in whichever way the creature performing or affected by it wants to- given examples included a creature with both Fire Resistance and Fire Vulnerability, which would apply the Resistance before increasing the remaining damage for the Vulnerability.

Action-timing can help you out a little bit- for example, Badge of Valor is triggered as an Immediate action and improves an Inspire Courage you already have running, while Words of Creation is applied when you first start the effect. So Words of Creation clearly cannot double the Badge's bonus. It could stack with Inspirational Boost, however, as that is cast and added to the Inspire before you start performing.

However, thanks to the way the Words of Creation section is formatted, there's a decent argument that no Inspire Courage booster is doubled by Words of Creation; the relevant rule specifies the values it changes your Inspire Courage to, and then you'd add all the boosters in afterwards (it's still really good.)

[Saint GoH]

I don't think there is an official explicit rule for this sort of thing. The closest I know of is an FAQ answer to a question about combining fire resistance and fire vulnerability, and that answer said essentially "apply effects in whichever order is most beneficial to the creature that has them". In this case, that would mean adding the various +1s and then doubling.

Yes, this is extremely powerful. Yes, this is commonly ruled the other way by a lot of DMs. Now for real brokenly powerful buffing, add on Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting), Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic), a Vest of Legends (DMG2), and an appropriate masterwork instrument (Complete Adventurer).

Great.... I don't know if she reads these boards or not but I don't need her walking around giving 10d6 damage to everybody at level 6ish >.>

In fact I'm not even sure where she learned to optimize... The padawan is learning.

[Endarire]

In Breaking Down Inspire Courage, Handbook Edition, I wrote:

[Words of Creation] DOUBLES your Inspire Courage bonus with any instrument. Saner interpretations say this is only from levels, but RAW says 'doubles.' You also take icky subdual damage unless you're immune. Hello, undead Bard!