What is the impact of losing 7th-9th level spells to the setting? [3.5]

[true_shinken]

As some of you might know, in my world spells are capped at 6th level save by rare items and extensive research.
It just occured to me I never asked the playground about this. What would be the impact of this on your standard D&D setting?
So far, it made little to no different, really (aside from making people who are really dead stay dead).

[Urpriest]

Silver Swords no longer make sense. Nobody can summon Archfiends.

[Godskook]

Silver Swords no longer make sense. Nobody can summon Archfiends.

Silver Swords as in swords made from alchemical silver?

What about Lycans, for starters?

[arguskos]

Silver Swords as in swords made from alchemical silver?

What about Lycans, for starters?

He means the Githyanki Silver Swords, the ones that are designed to work on Astral Projection's silver cords.

[AnswersQuestion]

Silver Swords as in swords made from alchemical silver?

What about Lycans, for starters?

I believe he means the githyanki silver swords, sort of artifacts, got a bunch of tricks to them, instagibs astral travelers...

[Drakefall]

I assume that settings in general would be far less likely to explode.

[Godskook]

He means the Githyanki Silver Swords, the ones that are designed to work on Astral Projection's silver cords.

I had a bad feeling he meant something more obscure.

[Urpriest]

I had a bad feeling he meant something more obscure.

They're about as obscure as Githyanki themselves, really. Oh similarly, there's a somewhat more obscure monster in the Manual of the Planes that focused on chomping astral cords.

Teleportation Circles are a very stereotypical trap for a Gygaxian dungeon, a world without higher levels spells will have to use other methods, but these aren't too unfeasible.

Aren't some of the Awaken spells higher than 7th level? Incarnate Construct for example?

[Godskook]

They're about as obscure as Githyanki themselves, really. Oh similarly, there's a somewhat more obscure monster in the Manual of the Planes that focused on chomping astral cords.

"Must have read this one entry in monster manual I"

is more obscure than

"Must have read the weapons section in the PHB *and* in the SRD"

[true_shinken]

Silver Swords no longer make sense. Nobody can summon Archfiends.

Actually, no. There are still means of plane travel even beyond 6th level spells. Jaunter and Elocater prc do it and you could get a planar ally with said ability. Giths themselves get it as a SLA.

[Jallorn]

"Must have read this one entry in monster manual I"

is more obscure than

"Must have read the weapons section in the PHB *and* in the SRD"

To be fair, silver and other rare materials aren't in the PHB, they're in the DMG. And no one said anything about it being more obscure, just not particularly obscure.

Oh, and Githyanki is in the SRD too.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, silver and other rare materials aren't in the PHB, they're in the DMG. And no one said anything about it being more obscure, just not particularly obscure.

Oh, and Githyanki is in the SRD too.

Actually, it isn't. Gith of both types, along with Mind Flayers and Beholders, are part of a small group of creatures WotC did not include in the SRD and still considers product identity.

[Urpriest]

Actually, no. There are still means of plane travel even beyond 6th level spells. Jaunter and Elocater prc do it and you could get a planar ally with said ability. Giths themselves get it as a SLA.

Planar travel still exists. But Silver Swords are only relevant when your planar travel involves Astral Cords, which requires Astral Projection. Similarly, while an Archdevil could be brought to the material by a series of plane shifts, that's really not the same thing as calling one...perhaps it could substitute in a pinch, but it's really a very different execution.

[AyeGill]

planar travel will become a divine-magic-only thing.

Also, actually, a classic fantasy setting is very unlikely to persist in that state if people are running around with high-level spells. removing them makes a somewhat stable setting make much more sense.

[Urpriest]

Most Golems won't exist, since most require Limited Wish at least.

[Iamyourking]

Nobody can summon Archfiends.

At no point did he claim that rituals, even if they are equivalent to epic level spells, are not available.

Not to mention the fact that being able to summon something that can't leave a Magic Circle for 9 minutes is hardly going to be a campaign breaker.

[Urpriest]

At no point did he claim that rituals, even if they are equivalent to epic level spells, are not available.

Standard D&D settings don't contain such rituals (they're a variant rule at best), except for epic spells themselves, which you can't get if you can't get 9th level spells. Obviously he can houserule in rituals, just like he can houserule in new ways to make golems. He's asking about the effect on a standard D&D setting.

[Psyren]

Just use rituals Incantations for the higher-level stuff as needed, e.g. (True) Resurrection, Discern Location, Gate, Sympathy/Antipathy etc.

[Coidzor]

Aren't some of the Awaken spells higher than 7th level? Incarnate Construct for example?

Awaken Construct is a 9th level spell ala Spell Compendium to the best of my knowledge, so that's out without some other route. I believe Awaken Undead is a 6th level spell, 5th for a cleric domain, so that'd be intact. Mass Awaken is 7th or 8th, so that's out as well.

[Iamyourking]

Yes, and the only way to summon an Arch Fiend is with a ritual and even then only for nine minutes; Locked Within The Gates and all.

[Domigorgon]

Just play it as "low fantasy". If level 6 is cap, then it's probably very rare even at that; most magic then occurs at levels 1-4.

i.e. no flying castles, epic wizards, interplanar or intraplanar portals...

UNLESS the plot demands it, of course.

[Godskook]

Most Golems won't exist, since most require Limited Wish at least.

Depends on the availability of artificers......hm....

@OP, do artificers or warlocks exist in your setting, and if so, what limits are placed on them at present? Well, and this is the thing, do the 7th+ level spells exists, and there's simply a E12 cap in place, or are the spells actually gone? Cause in an E12 version, I'm pretty sure I can get reliable access to them via item creation(expensive, but useful)

[Psyren]

@OP, do artificers or warlocks exist in your setting, and if so, what limits are placed on them at present? Well, and this is the thing, do the 7th+ level spells exists, and there's simply a E12 cap in place, or are the spells actually gone? Cause in an E12 version, I'm pretty sure I can get reliable access to them via item creation(expensive, but useful)

As some of you might know, in my world spells are capped at 6th level save by rare items and extensive research.

I would say the underlined portion means the spells exist; however, a cap on Artificer/Warlock creation ability and/or a modification to the crafting rules can still keep them out of PC hands via that route.

[Gabe the Bard]

I think you would have to rework some of the other spell lists besides the Wizards and Clerics. Bards spells cap at 6th level, and some of them are 7th or 8th level spells for wizards. Rangers and Paladins may also become slightly more powerful by comparison unless your tweak their spell lists as well.

[true_shinken]

Depends on the availability of artificers......hm....

@OP, do artificers or warlocks exist in your setting, and if so, what limits are placed on them at present? Well, and this is the thing, do the 7th+ level spells exists, and there's simply a E12 cap in place, or are the spells actually gone? Cause in an E12 version, I'm pretty sure I can get reliable access to them via item creation(expensive, but useful)

The spells are gone, and as it stands there is no limit on Artificers or Warlocks. You can find old, ancient magical items done with spells above 7th level, maybe a forgotten scroll of higher level and a few people are known to rarely be able to recreate the 'old magic' (i.e., they research and create the spells from scratch).

I think you would have to rework some of the other spell lists besides the Wizards and Clerics. Bards spells cap at 6th level, and some of them are 7th or 8th level spells for wizards. Rangers and Paladins may also become slightly more powerful by comparison unless your tweak their spell lists as well.

I'm aware of that, I don't think it's a problem. Wizards are Clerics still seem to be kings of the hill anyway.

[Adamantrue]

Are the 7th-9th level Slots still available, for Metamagic use?

[true_shinken]

Are the 7th-9th level Slots still available, for Metamagic use?

Yes they are.

[Godskook]

The spells are gone, and as it stands there is no limit on Artificers or Warlocks. You can find old, ancient magical items done with spells above 7th level, maybe a forgotten scroll of higher level and a few people are known to rarely be able to recreate the 'old magic' (i.e., they research and create the spells from scratch).

Not sure I understand what you're saying here, so I'll be direct:

A level 12 Artificer counts as a caster level 14 caster for the purpose of item creation. Can he make a greater stone golem from scratch, by beating the DC 33 UMD check required to emulate Symbol of Stunning, a 7th level spell? By RAW, he can, near as I can tell, unless you're putting a 'limit' on the Artificer to emulate your houserule's effect on them.

[true_shinken]

Not sure I understand what you're saying here, so I'll be direct:

A level 12 Artificer counts as a caster level 14 caster for the purpose of item creation. Can he make a greater stone golem from scratch, by beating the DC 33 UMD check required to emulate Symbol of Stunning, a 7th level spell? By RAW, he can, near as I can tell, unless you're putting a 'limit' on the Artificer to emulate your houserule's effect on them.

He could do it, yes.

[Godskook]

He could do it, yes.

Then all level 7 spells in your setting, and cost 2275gp unless there's a costly component(Xp, GP or similar). Not sure if I can get 8th or 9th ones or not. That depends on where class levels are capped.