Building an acrobatic assassin [3.5]

[SilverLeaf167]

For an upcoming (solo) sandbox campaign, I'm trying to build an acrobatic assassin (think Assassin's Creed). I'd like help with a few things.
Currently the character is Human Rogue 3
My assignments will probably be mostly hit-and-run, as I don't have much skill points to spare in social skills. I have maxed all the movement and stealth skills, as well as Open Lock and Disable Device.
My question is, is it actually worth going into Assassin? My style would work with Death Attack, assuming I take Ability Focus for it, but it doesn't have as many skill points.
Also, what feats, skill tricks and/or classes should I take?

Thanks for your help in advance.

[Hat-Trick]

thief acrobat, maybe for extra mobility?

[Cerlis]

a normal Rogue is a good enough assassin from what i can tell. Assassin class just gives SNeak attack advancement, death effects, assassin friendly spells, and shadowstepping i think

Essentially a rogue who wants to focus on the whole...killing people part.

I think Imp Initiative and Imp Feignt are good enough for single target killing quickly (making sure if your initial sneak attack doesnt kill em, you can just get in another before their turn).

I think there are 3 good tricks. One is the Sneak attack with hidden dagger, then there is sneak attack after tumble, and then there is the ability to feight a group of people with bluff ( Since you Can regain your cover , and thus run, hide or sneak attack, with bluff i'd suggest maxing it out anyways. Indeed the other social skills might not be worth it but bluff should) which would allow you to spend extra attacks on getting rid of several mooks at once

There are also a few acrobatic skill tricks. From what i know if you have decent stats and max out the right skills your checks SHOULD be good enough (one thing to consider is that though wasting a feat for a +3 bonus seems Meh (skill focus) that there is a feat in Scoundrel or Adventure ( i think) that puts Dex for your acrobatic skills, so for one feat you could get +2-4 on all your skills without having to waste a good stat on Str. +3 for a feat isnt good, but +3 on four or so skills is.

Also if you have any extra feats and are worried about skill points dont forget about the feat that gives you 5 skill points *shrug* but others will probably say thats a bad idea.

[Thespianus]

a normal Rogue is a good enough assassin from what i can tell. Assassin class just gives SNeak attack advancement, death effects, assassin friendly spells, and shadowstepping i think

Essentially a rogue who wants to focus on the whole...killing people part.

I think Imp Initiative and Imp Feignt are good enough for single target killing quickly (making sure if your initial sneak attack doesnt kill em, you can just get in another before their turn).

Using the "Hidden Blade" and "Sudden Draw" Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel
will help you get a lot of extra sneak attacks too. Pulling out a hidden dagger to deal Sneak Attack damage helps a lot.

[Curmudgeon]

Also if you have any extra feats and are worried about skill points dont forget about the feat that gives you 5 skill points *shrug* but others will probably say thats a bad idea.

That's a bad idea.

Seriously, Rogues with adequate INT (typically 14, an efficient choice with point buy) aren't short of skill points. They are desperately short of feats.

Basically if it's not of the same level of effectiveness as Craven (+1 point of damage per character level on sneak attack), there are better choices for your Rogue.

Skills can be boosted with appropriate masterwork tools (+2 circumstance bonus each, for only 50 gp). Rogues can easily acquire more gp; they can't so easily acquire most feats.

[SilverLeaf167]

Yup, I think I'll rather take the skill points rather than Assassin abilities. I currently have a long list of Skill Tricks I'll want. I rolled great for stats, I have an 18 in both DEX and INT, and we're going to get +2 to any one stat every second level.

Inspired by Ezio, I'm using two sleeve blades and a rapier. For added versatility, I also have a Hand Crossbow. As for feats, I have Weapon Finesse, TWF, Quick Draw and Craven. Is Craven as good as people say it is? The damage bonus doesn't seem that huge, I might want to switch the feat for something else. I might also rip some points from somewhere (like Escape Artist?) and put it into Bluff for feinting goodness.

[Thespianus]

As for feats, I have Weapon Finesse, TWF, Quick Draw and Craven. Is Craven as good as people say it is? The damage bonus doesn't seem that huge, I might want to switch the feat for something else.

Craven is really good for increasing your damage output. I'd take that over Quick Draw if you're not using the Skill Tricks. If it's damage output what you want to focus on, Craven is good. If you want versatility, it might not be the best, but it's one of the staple feats for a Rogue build.

[Curmudgeon]

As for feats, I have Weapon Finesse, TWF, Quick Draw and Craven.

Of these I would keep just Weapon Finesse and Craven.

Quick Draw is only necessary if you're going to not have a hand free. So think of it as an additional feat tax on Two-Weapon Fighting. If you don't go for TWF you can keep your composite shortbow in your off hand when you're not using it, and draw your rapier as you move.

TWF is a poor choice for versatility because it can only be used with a full attack, and usually only a full melee attack. You can add the feat tax for Quick Draw on top of the attack taxes for Two-Weapon Fighting and range, and the action tax which keeps you from moving more than 5', but that's really expensive.

Consider buying Improved Unarmed Strike in the form of Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) for 1,310 gp. That alone will keep you from provoking AoOs when you're using your bow. When you get to BAB +6 pick up Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), which lets you add an unarmed attack whenever you make a melee attack. That's one attack added to all of the following:

• full attack action
• standard action attack
• attack of opportunity
• bonus attack (such as from Improved Trip)

The penalty is the same as for TWF, but the versatility is way better.

[SilverLeaf167]

I want Quick Draw for the Skill Tricks that allow you to treat the opponent as flat-footed, and also for it's plain coolness. TWF is a common way to apply Sneak Attack damage twice. Also, it fits my source of inspiration, http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTo-8XHPzHY6qs1KC6wkf56yX_VVs-nIu33e0yjjsRE6gy8OPitwA
I think there's a rule that you have to be able to meet feat prerequisites without any magic items etc. so I couldn't take Snap Kick without actually taking Improved Unarmed Strike first.
Maybe I could take a Barbarian dip for Pounce instead? :P Also, falling is a free action, so I can just fall on top of the enemy from a rooftop etc. and attack them.

[Greenish]

How about Ninja Spy from OA? It gives +10/+20 to climb/jump/tumble and allows taking 10 with them. Also gets Poison Use, a handful of free EWPs, HiPS, Slow Fall, Thousand Faces, Slippery Mind and other funny stuff. Pretty easy entry too, though not very early.

[SilverLeaf167]

I might take up to 7 levels of Ninja Spy, assuming my DM allows it. From there on, it doesn't really get much good stuff. Also, I assume Thousand Faces would be Disguise Self in 3.5?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, I once built a Harlene Quinselle character, which was comprised primarily of a healthy splash into Rogue,with some Unarmed Swordsage for the serious threat potential. Had a lot of acrobatic stuff in it between Tiger Claw and Setting Sun, with Shadow Hand to do pretty much everything you ever wanted to do as an Assassin, but ran out of spell slots to do it with.

Craven + Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade + Island of Blades = good times.

[SilverLeaf167]

Meh, I want my Sneak Attack to be as high as possible. The slightly slower advancement from Ninja Spy is a special case, as it's Acrobatics bonus is AWESOME.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Meh, I want my Sneak Attack to be as high as possible. The slightly slower advancement from Ninja Spy is a special case, as it's Acrobatics bonus is AWESOME.

Keep in mind that in addition to having a high sneak attack die pool, you also need to be able to apply it. Surprise works for the first round, but what then? Swordsage gives you some vital tools necessary to ensure that you can pick up that heft of dice on every swing.

Also, Assassin's Stance (also a Shadow Hand stance) adds +2d6 sneak attack, for those ideal times when you can pop off a sneak attack without needing help.

You want acrobatic? As a swift action, you get a jump check, and if you build it right, you are considered to have a running start, and add a +10' bonus to it. In other words, from standing still, you can make an anime jump 20' in the air, if you wanted to.

Baffling Defense. Sense Motive check to generate a miss. Plus Shifting Defense stance which gives you a 5' step every time someone misses you. Literally flowing through combat, unhurt, unseen, ghosting freely through mass combat.

[SilverLeaf167]

Fine, I get your point. I'm lazy, could someone do the math for me: how much of a Swordsage dip do you need for Assassin's Stance, and some of the other handy stuff?

[Greenish]

Also, I assume Thousand Faces would be Disguise Self in 3.5?

I don't see why A Thousand Faces wouldn't be A Thousand Faces. Not exactly the same as Disguise Self.

Fine, I get your point. I'm lazy, could someone do the math for me: how much of a Swordsage dip do you need for Assassin's Stance, and some of the other handy stuff?

Two levels of swordsage, assuming your DM holds the school of thought which states the first level stance of a ToB class has to be a first level stance.

You'll need IL 5 for Assassin's Stance, so the options are X2/Swordsage4, X4/Swordsage3 or X6/Swordsage2.

[Draz74]

Two levels of swordsage, assuming your DM holds the school of thought which states the first level stance of a ToB class has to be a first level stance.

You'll need IL 5 for Assassin's Stance, so the options are X2/Swordsage4, X4/Swordsage3 or X6/Swordsage2.

Or X8/Swordsage 1 if your DM doesn't enforce the first-level-Stance thing.

[SilverLeaf167]

I don't see why A Thousand Faces wouldn't be A Thousand Faces. Not exactly the same as Disguise Self.

I meant it would probably be Disguise Self at-will, instead of the Alter Self at-will that the 3.0 class feature gives.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I meant it would probably be Disguise Self at-will, instead of the Alter Self at-will that the 3.0 class feature gives.

And you can always pick up the reserve feat Face Changer from CM to be able to Disguise Self at-will.

Take a page from some of the theorycrafting behind the Joker Bard.

Changelings get to Alter Form to look like pretty much whatever they want to, making them the ultimate man-of-a-thousand-faces. Then they have a racial feat which lets them fool divination effects by making them 'read' your persona. So if you are in the persona of a neutral peasant who is wanting to get a closer look at that shiny guy up there, Detect Evil will not twig to you, Detect Thoughts will only pick up that you are in awe of that Important Person and just want a better view of him, and no one will know any different until he ends up with a knife between the eyes. Then you shift your disguise and stand at attention as Random Guard #18, who is suddenly on alert because someone just assassinated the Noble! Then, as you march off, you switch again to Humble Peasant and slip off in the crowd.

[SilverLeaf167]

I didn't say I especially NEEDED the ability :P
I would rather take the bonus feat and skill point from Human, rather than an ability that can be almost recreated with a 1,800 gp item.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't say I especially NEEDED the ability :P
I would rather take the bonus feat and skill point from Human, rather than an ability that can be almost recreated with a 1,800 gp item.

There is a significant difference between Disguise Self (an Illusion(Glamore) effect which is easily seen through) and a Polymorph effect (which, other than actual True Seeing, is almost impossible to see through). The ability to negate divination to detect your character will make it much easier to get closer to targets as well.

However, YMMV. If it's not something you want to do, then don't bother. However, if you do wish to do it, that's definitely a way to do it.