Psionics?

[Lafayel]

For quite some time I've been baffled by the question of psionics. I have NOT seen them in a campaign yet, but am rather eager to play one. However, I hear constant horror stories about every psionic class and combo of psionic classes and their powers. Are there any opinions out there about their balance? Is it a legit set of handbooks with merit, as I feel, or should it be pitched out?

Intelligent advice on Psionics, that's what I'd like, please. Thanks

[Psyren]

Start HERE.

Return with questions

(Oh, and ignore Myth 7)

[Claudius Maximus]

Before we really start, what edition are we talking about? I'm most familiar with 3.5, and I'm a big fan and proponent of its psionics system, but I have heard bad things about other editions. This clarification can really help set the tone of the thread.

Edit: And yeah ignore myth 7 if this is 3.5. The erudite has been made official and is indeed pretty broken.

[Lafayel]

3.5 yes. Off to that link!

[Gamer Girl]

I've found the big reason a lot of DM's find psionics 'too powerful' is simple:

They don't understand psionics. The psionic stuff is just something odd in a book that they have only glanced at and not read much at all.

The poor Dm is just bewildered when the player says 'i'll zap this or that with this' and the DM has no idea what the player is talking about.

It's worse when the DM really, really does not understand psionics and the sneaky player can slip stuff by the DM.

And the classic adventure is written with only magic in mind, not psionics. So when a psionic character does something unique a DM can see that as 'too powerful' and 'breaking the game'.

[Lafayel]

I've noticed that. That very few DMs have taken the time to research XPH based on either a dislike of the power source or they simply don't want to bother taking the time to understand it. Yet I've read through it many times and think that all of it has internal restrictions that do limit what they can do

[The Glyphstone]

Also, new DMs, or those used to low-power games, judge the 'caster' classes based on how many D6's they can do with a Fireball spell. Unoptimized psions beat unoptimized sorcerers or wizards hands-down in a pure blasting role, so far too often that's taken as the measure for 'overpowered'.

[Hyfigh]

Psionics, in my opinion, is what magic should have been. Metapsionics require you use your focus, so you can only (for the most part) beef up one spell per round. These spells need additional PP to be cast as nastier spells, and even to be beefed up with metapsionics. They're self capped because of the rules about not spending more PP on a power than you have ML. It's a wonderful system and only hindered by how few psionic suppliments are available compared to magic.

I honestly prefer a StP Erudite over a wizard now adays.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

My introduction to 3.5 D&D was the Expanded Psionics Handbook in April 2004, the month it came out. Before was only 2nd ed.

I bought it literally so I could read the fluff. I liked it so much I then started brushing up on 3.5 and switched permanently to it.

It was not until almost a year later I read up on the caster classes and was rather put off by how powerful and yet uninteresting they seemed to be. Never found anything you could abuse with psionics that you can't abuse worse with the arcane.

Psionics is and always will be welcome in my games, which are never sci-fi like. There is no reason it need be. It works in any setting, and both games I'm running now are psionic-based. There is magic, but it's not widespread.

My games tend to have it heavily dream-related, and the psychometabolic stuff is unlike almost anything in any magic system, so it's not even unlikable to to originality issues.

[The Glyphstone]

I honestly prefer a StP Erudite over a wizard now adays.

What is this I don't even

[Coidzor]

Half of the problem seems to be people who can't accept psionics in a fantasy setting, seeing it as inherently sci-fi in their fantasy and not in the way of peanut butter and chocolate.

[bartman]

One thing to consider, and this is more of a DM call i feel, is does psionics = magic. ie: does an anti-magic field suppress psionic effects as well? Would detect magic detect psionics? I have never played one myself, and all of my DMs do not like the idea of having to read and figure out another book, so it is generally off the table, but I too would love to play one, and this is something that has been brought up with my group before.

[AsteriskAmp]

Psionics can be really awsome for a campaign when properly applied, but this involves commitment from both the DM and the Players.

I'm currently running a campaign that has Psionics as a pretty heavy plot point, the players have yet to encounter psionics but they have been properly warned and as such, I also left the door open should they want to play a psionic character (They didn't).

Meanwhile I am currently reading the Psionics Handbook and the Expanded Psionics, as well as the respective threads in WOTC forum. The experience has to be balanced for the players to not try to attack me, fun, for the players to not hate the appearance of any psionic character, and fluid, for the players to not despise the psionics system. I am currently working toward making that a reality for their first encounter with a psion.

The system of psionics is not broken from my point of view but I believe it is not widely used as it is kind of a relatively modern concept, more akin to Science Fiction than to Fantasy, that normally stops the DM from introducing it, which is further aggravated by myths.

The commitment is needed because, introducing psionics is introducing a whole new concept into the game, whole new mechanics that although similar to casting have its own workings.

Psionics, like anything in DnD is to be handled with responsibility by both sides. If I let a player play a druid with a Barbarian in the party, I expect a modicum of behavior and self-control since I'm giving him a wide repertoire for him to have fun, but allow others to also have fun. This will always work if responsibility and commitment are reached. If you play with an infighting party of teenagers, I can assure you even a campaign based around unoptimized monks fighting unoptimized trunamers would degenerate into (Harmless for the characters, Lethal for the players) fighting were no one would actually end up killing anything but themselves, and eventually one would try to gain control, kinda like Lord of the Flies the RPG.

[Godskook]

Best argument I've ever heard for why Psionics is a good system:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=30

On the other hand, psionics suffers from the same problem almost all of the non-core mechanic expansions do. It is harder to play a psionic character poorly compared to a core character. Same with ToB, MoI, Binder, Warlock, DFA, and similar. They're easy-sauce to get to 'decent'.

[wayfare]

I've GM'd and Played psionic characters, and I think it really is a mover versatile version of magic -- as an earlier poster said, what magic should have been. My primary reason for saying this is that, your lower level effect tend to keep pace with your higher level effects because of how manifesting works -- psionic rays, which are more or less magic missile, get better as you level up. They keep pace, and that's great.

Additionally, and this could just be me, but the fluff feels better in psionics. Magic is never really given a great backstory -- psionics seems to have it built in. Like i said, perhaps its just me.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One thing to consider, and this is more of a DM call i feel, is does psionics = magic. ie: does an anti-magic field suppress psionic effects as well? Would detect magic detect psionics? I have never played one myself, and all of my DMs do not like the idea of having to read and figure out another book, so it is generally off the table, but I too would love to play one, and this is something that has been brought up with my group before.

Actually the transparency (IE Anti-magic field affecting psionic powers and null psionic field affecting spells for example) is the default rule.

And the only thing I feel psionics are better than magic is at abusing action economy... but that is usually high level combos and stuff.

[AsteriskAmp]

Additionally, and this could just be me, but the fluff feels better in psionics. Magic is never really given a great backstory -- psionics seems to have it built in. Like i said, perhaps its just me.

That's because psionics is pulled from Science-Fiction which has a tendency to try to explain things, also, psionics is something being considered as a possibility by modern technology (someone will probably find the right wikipedia/cracked article before I ever do).

Magic is the explanation for everything that cannot be explained, ergo, explaining it would kinda defeat its purpose. What you can do is explain its workings, but at the end of the day, YOU JUST STOPPED TIME!, or YOU WALKED IN THE AIR!, while psionics at least can fall back into a (still ridiculously magical) but at least believable "logic".

[The Vorpal Tribble]

The system of psionics is not broken from my point of view but I believe it is not widely used as it is kind of a relatively modern concept, more akin to Science Fiction than to Fantasy, that normally stops the DM from introducing it, which is further aggravated by myths.

Except it's not a relatively modern concept. Asian beliefs are much more in line with psionics than magic. Meditation, ki, oneiropathy and similar. Fakirs, mentals, wise men, you name it.

The concentration and manipulation of one's inner powers, physically and/or mentally, and its life force.

These just aren't western-style stuff in general.

[The Glyphstone]

That's because psionics is pulled from Science-Fiction which has a tendency to try to explain things, also, psionics is something being considered as a possibility by modern technology (someone will probably find the right wikipedia/cracked article before I ever do).

Magic is the explanation for everything that cannot be explained, ergo, explaining it would kinda defeat its purpose. What you can do is explain its workings, but at the end of the day, YOU JUST STOPPED TIME!, or YOU WALKED IN THE AIR!, while psionics at least can fall back into a (still ridiculously magical) but at least believable "logic".

And that doesn't even work for D&D psionics. It's about as well-justified as divine magic is, the only difference is that you do magic by thinking hard at things instead of calling to gods for help.

[AsteriskAmp]

Except it's not a relatively modern concept. Asian beliefs are much more in line with psionics than magic. Meditation, ki, and similar. Fakirs, mentals, wise men, you name it.

The concentration and manipulation of one's inner powers, physically and/or mentally, and its life force.

Yes, that is true, but itself the concept is strongly western, moving things with your mind and as such are heavily Science Fiction and the perspective given in DnD is more akin to this then the Asian "fluff", in Science Fiction it was mostly explained with Technology or Genius, or non-lethal radioactive poisoning, while Asian stuff, while strongly centred in the mind, always invoked some incorporeal power or deity that allowed you to channel it.

And that doesn't even work for D&D psionics. It's about as well-justified as divine magic is, the only difference is that you do magic by thinking hard at things instead of calling to gods for help.

At least they kept the explanation for psionics consistent, while divine magic allows you to cast an spell of an oposed alignment without any real burden, meaning that as a cleric of Pelor you could be rising an undead army.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, that is true, but itself the concept is strongly western, moving things with your mind and as such are heavily Science Fiction and the perspective given in DnD is more akin to this then the Asian "fluff", in Science Fiction it was mostly explained with Technology or Genius, or non-lethal radioactive poisoning, while Asian stuff, while strongly centred in the mind, always invoked some incorporeal power or deity that allowed you to channel it.

And then D&D comes along and basically explains it like the Little Engine That Could.

[AsteriskAmp]

And then D&D comes along and basically explains it like the Little Engine That Could.

Well, you can always ignore the fluff. But yes, at least they didn't try to explain it like they did with Time Stop or other Spells which actually provoke arguments when used with different applications and feats. In Psionics you just think hard about it, and don't try to think too hard about it.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

while Asian stuff, while strongly centred in the mind, always invoked some incorporeal power or deity that allowed you to channel it.

...in some cases perhaps, but we're talking radically different ideas, but all based around the mental, from Japan down to India. You didn't invoke other powers through every single belief system.

However, like ki and all that, the belief that we can all link our life force and mind together still isn't religious or arcane. It's still something supposedly inside us all. It's energy from ourselves, that can be linked to by others. That's very psionicy to me.

In my games psionics is more in depth than the other powers. You manipulated things by knowing them so in depth you could touch them with your mind in just the right way. Psychometabolic powers are because of your extreme sensitivity to how your own body works and can then force it to change itself. It has real life equivalents in many cases, those able to adjust heart rate and blood flow and similar. Psionics simply take it to the level of fantasy.

It's not like divine where powers do things for you, or arcane where you learn to push the right buttons and things happen. Psionics is simply Knowing at a level beyond most other's comprehension.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, you can always ignore the fluff. But yes, at least they didn't try to explain it like they did with Time Stop or other Spells which actually provoke arguments when used with different applications and feats. In Psionics you just think hard about it, and don't try to think too hard about it.

As long as you ignore everything written in CPsionics, at least. That waste of paper was a perversion of all Psionic stand for in more than just mechanics.

[AsteriskAmp]

...in some cases perhaps, but we're talking radically different ideas, but all based around the mental, from Japan down to India. You didn't invoke other powers through every single belief system.

However, like ki and all that, the belief that we can all link our life force and mind together still isn't religious or arcane. It's still something supposedly inside us all. It's energy from ourselves, that can be linked to by others. That's very psionicy to me.

I will concede to you on this, the energy is there, but there is normally some weird intervention-y stuff involved too, not always direct divine revelation, but it's also strongly related to magic and whatnot. Sadly, DnD Psionics doesn't explore this beautiful facet of the concept, instead giving it as a substitute for magic to monks if I'm not wrong.

As long as you ignore everything written in CPsionics, at least. That waste of paper was a perversion of all Psionic stand for in more than just mechanics.

And I whole heartedly agree with you on this.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hey no need to be so harsh to CPsi, after all it did bring us the Ardent, the Anarchic Initiate and IIRC the awesome power of Inconsistant Location (probably my favourite power)

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Hey no need to be so harsh to CPsi, after all it did bring us the... Anarchic Initiate

A PrC that destroys the fluff of psionics by drawing power from another source instead of the self.

There is also the fact that it's easier for psions to take than wilders due to the fact wilders do not get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill. Not that they should have to since this is psionics

I will concede to you on this, the energy is there, but there is normally some weird intervention-y stuff involved too, not always direct divine revelation, but it's also strongly related to magic and whatnot.

In every single asian mental practice?

[AsteriskAmp]

In every single asian mental practice?

No not on everyone single mental practice, but a lot of them, mostly the once related to affecting stuff outside yourself.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

No not on everyone single mental practice, but a lot of them, mostly the once related to affecting stuff outside yourself.

Psionics out of almost any other system is probably the most geared towards self-affecting however. Psychic warrior for instance has practically nothing that effects anything outside itself.

[AsteriskAmp]

Psionics out of almost any other system is probably the most geared towards self-affecting however. Psychic warrior for instance has practically nothing that effects anything outside itself.

Not psionics, determined branches of it, most of the psionic powers affect other things. And I alredy conceded to your original point, in theory, the Oriental mental disciplines are more similar to the concept of pure psionics than the Western Science Fiction portrayals.