Balancing Lower Tier Classes

[Keinnicht]

Here's a question for you all. How do you think lower-tier (three and below) classes should be changed to balance them? Here's some ideas I was thinking about:

1. Give Fighters and Barbarians the "excellent" BAB progression from Iron Heroes (Goes up to +25, still stops at four attacks)

2. Give Rogues and Monks the "good" base attack bonus (Equal to level)

3. Give bards rogue-ish trapfinding skills, improve Bardic Music to have more applications.

4. Give Paladins and Rangers up to 6th level spells.

[Hat-Trick]

Give fighters the Weapon Focus line for free, give them skills and skill points, and let them partially ignore stat requirements for things like improved trip?

[Wings of Peace]

The Fighter's largest weakness was never his BaB, that's something that can be boosted fairly easily. His problem is largely that his BaB is effectively his only shtick and his bonus feats while nice only truly serve to shoehorn him further into the role of "I full attack again". My solution in the group I used to run was that I replaced the Fighter with the Generic Warrior. Generic Warrior worked pretty well in giving the player in my group who made him more options (Soulmeld dips, Pact Magic Dips, Maneuvers, etc.) but I don't think I would recommend that fix for a new player. The extra options while nice can be overwhelming it seemed for a player who doesn't know the game very extensively.

[Kesnit]

While it is far from a perfect fix, make full attacks standard actions rather than full-round. This gives the option to move and still get all possible attacks in.

[Amphetryon]

While it is far from a perfect fix, make full attacks standard actions rather than full-round. This gives the option to move and still get all possible attacks in.

Do this only if your BAB = ECL ( is within 2 if you prefer), and you have incentive to avoid straying from the full-BAB classes.

[Ernir]

I don't think you're going to fix the classes with a few lines of text.

If this is a problem at your table, I think you're looking at either ignoring the classes (sticking to the Tier 3+ classes) or finding/making more extensive homebrew fixes...

3. Give bards rogue-ish trapfinding skills, improve Bardic Music to have more applications.

But the Bard is already Tier 3?

[Aquillion]

Here's a question for you all. How do you think lower-tier (three and below) classes should be changed to balance them?

What are you trying to balance them against? You have to answer that first.

If you're trying to balance them against tier 1 or 2 casters, no, this won't work. Tier 1 classes can resolve entire encounters and drastically change the direction of the plot in one action.

I don't think you're going to fix the classes with a few lines of text.

"All tier 3 or lower classes now get full Wizard casting advancement -- but with access to only one school of their choice." Plus the ability to cast in armor with no ASF. Fixed.

[Greenish]

How do you think lower-tier (three and below) classes should be changed to balance them?

Tiers 3-4 are plenty balanced as is. It's the outliers that're the problem.

[Bang!]

Increasing numbers like BA doesn't address the problems classes face. The Samurai's BA is fine, but its class abilities are awful. Its BA could be 3x class level, and it would still face the same troubles in generating full attacks, dealing with mobile/invisible/fearless enemies, generating a decent defense or finding interesting things to do outside of combat.

--

Bumping Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade, Dragon Shaman, Spellthief, etc. spellcasting up to Bard CL/advancement would help them pretty significantly.

You could probably tack Warblade maneuver progression onto the Marshal, Fighter, Barbarian, Samurai, etc. (adjusting school access by class theme) to bump them up.

The Monk and Soulknife could alternatively handle the Lurk/Psychic Warrior maneuver advancement without breaking the game or contradicting class flavor text.

The Divine Mind and Soulborn are kind of sticky. The Divine Mind could probably handle Psychic Warrior manifesting (with access to some non-Mantle powers), a tripled aura radius and the ability to stack 2 or 3 auras at a time (at say, levels 8 and 15). The Soulborn probably wouldn't break, even with Totemist-rate essentia/soulmeld/bind progression (without the Totem bind, anyway). Its Share Defense thing should probably be useful somehow too - maybe a swift action activation and a 60 ft radius effect.

--

And on the other end, you could use spontaneous Divine Caster variants, nix any Wizard/Wu Jen/Archivist spells learned through level up and make Spellbooks incomprehensible to everyone beside their original scribes to bring the Tier 1's under control.

--

EDIT:
For some reason I missed that you wanted to improve all the classes below tier 2. Replace all mentions of Bard casting in my post with Battle Sorcerer casting; all mentions of Psychic Warrior power with Ardent power progression, give all ToB classes options akin to the Arcane Swordsage, and you'll probably be in the ballpark.

[Grendus]

Here's a question for you all. How do you think lower-tier (three and below) classes should be changed to balance them? Here's some ideas I was thinking about:

1. Give Fighters and Barbarians the "excellent" BAB progression from Iron Heroes (Goes up to +25, still stops at four attacks)

Properly built, they can actually out damage the wizard, they just have no flexibility. More skill points and some actual class features (free Improved Trip/Disarm/Bull Rush etc would go a long way) would help though.

2. Give Rogues and Monks the "good" base attack bonus (Equal to level)

Might help rogues, though they're still squishy and can't do much damage without sneak attack. How about feint as a free action, and use the ACF from dungeonscape as a class feature instead of an alternate class feature (gives them half sneak attack damage against creatures immune to sneak attack). Add a magic item that allows you to hide from blindsense and tremorsense and you'd be golden. Probably still T4, maybe low T3 (if duskblade can make the cut with such a pitiful list, why not rogue).

Monks... just replace them with the unarmed swordsage. Solid T3. Either that or you have to have a little op-fu and go sacred fist for a fairly powerful divine gish (not as good as full cleric, but for a martial class with some divine flavor it's a good start). Monks were just poorly thought out, fixing them would require a total overhaul. Though admittedly, full BAB would help with flurry of misses.

3. Give bards rogue-ish trapfinding skills, improve Bardic Music to have more applications.

Bards are fine. They get plenty of good PrC's and feats outside core, and even in core they're still decently T3.

4. Give Paladins and Rangers up to 6th level spells.

Give them duskblade spell progression, and a few of the spells from their T1 full-caster superiors. Puts them as solid T3.

[Grim Reader]

In my experience, the full BaB classes don't start lagging untill after level 6, sometimes as late as lvel 9-10. It depends on the optimization skill of the players, and in the average group, I find this is only sufficient to outdistance the melee-classes after level 6.

This is made worse by the lack of high-level options for the melee classes. Which was very nearly total untill PHB II. The featchains you could get as a fighter at level 18 were similar to the ones you completed at level 9.

Consequently, I have started to make high-level PrCs for full-BaB classes, to fill in the gap. Giving more powerful options, and aiming to put the result in Tier 3, slightly above the Duskblade. I'll report back when done.

[JaronK]

Since you said you want to fix the T3s, do you mean you want them to all be as strong as T1-2s? If so, you're going to need a LOT more than just numerical changes. Getting Fighters up to T1 level means giving them abilities like "leap from continent to continent" and "slice your sword through the fabric of reality, allowing you to step into another plane" and "with a single inspiring speech, you turn the entire town into an army capable of crushing your enemies easily." Not to mention things like forging magic items, killing hordes of enemies with a single sword slice, and striding into the throne rooms of gods to demand answers to challenging questions.

JaronK

[AslanCross]

Tiers 3-4 are plenty balanced as is. It's the outliers that're the problem.

This is truth. ToB classes are at Tier 3, and they do very well. So are the other specialist casters, like Duskblade or Dread Necro. Same thing with Rogue and Barbarian. It's the poor guys like the Fighter (whose greatest weakness is the lack of class features) and the Monk (whose class features do not work as advertised and don't do much together) who need help, and they're at Tier 4 or lower.

[JaronK]

Barbarian and Rogue are T4.

I actually think T3-4 is balanced. T4 is a little weaker than I like to play as, but it's right about what I want to DM for (as it's easier to predict the players' actions and thus plan ahead). I wouldn't mind having everything at T3 though.

JaronK

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Putting up the good fight aren't we jaron? I wonder if the OP has even read your thread.

[Re'ozul]

Give the Warlock his BAB+1 in invocations and make ranged EBs iterative.

[true_shinken]

Tiers 3-4 are plenty balanced as is. It's the outliers that're the problem.

Amen, brother.

[Tyndmyr]

Here's a question for you all. How do you think lower-tier (three and below) classes should be changed to balance them? Here's some ideas I was thinking about:

1. Give Fighters and Barbarians the "excellent" BAB progression from Iron Heroes (Goes up to +25, still stops at four attacks)

2. Give Rogues and Monks the "good" base attack bonus (Equal to level)

3. Give bards rogue-ish trapfinding skills, improve Bardic Music to have more applications.

4. Give Paladins and Rangers up to 6th level spells.

Extra BaB isn't a big deal. It's not hard to optimize melee people for hitting things...it's hard to make them good at doing other stuffs.

Good BaB is useful for rogues and monks. Especially monks.

Bard's aren't actually that bad, tbh. But yeah, tossing more stuff at them might increase the tier. Hard to tell without more knowledge of applications.

Pallies need this. Im not sure what list or lists your using to add high level spells, but this has the potential to make rangers pretty badass melee/magic hybrids. I'd try one under such rules. The alignment issues of pallys would likely prevent me from playing one, though.

[Person_Man]

Somebody on this forum worked out a pretty good system where Tier 1-2 classes need to get their spells approved by the DM, Tier 3 is left alone, and Tier 4-6 get free gestalt with another DM approved Tier 4-6 class. So a party might look like:

Wizard 5/PrC 5 (no Polymorph, Celerity, etc)
Warblade 10
Paladin 5/Griffin Rider 5//Healer 10
Rogue 10//Monk 10

IMO it works out pretty well. Remember, there's no issue with a party of all Tier 1 classes, as the DM is god. The only problem is when Tier 1 classes with Tier 5 classes and they're a jerk about it.

[Andion Isurand]

I use pathfinder to help boost the low tier classes.

[Keinnicht]

I don't think you're going to fix the classes with a few lines of text.

If this is a problem at your table, I think you're looking at either ignoring the classes (sticking to the Tier 3+ classes) or finding/making more extensive homebrew fixes...

I was actually trying to initiate some general discussion. Those were just a few of my ideas, I was hoping others would give more.

[Keinnicht]

Might help rogues, though they're still squishy and can't do much damage without sneak attack. How about feint as a free action, and use the ACF from dungeonscape as a class feature instead of an alternate class feature

I already took the fortification rules from Pathfinder. That feint idea is great, although I'd make it a swift action.

[Pentachoron]

I'm with some of the earlier posters in that I don't feel like the best way to balance it is to bump up the lower tiered classes. I honestly think they're fine. It's the 1-2's that I think could use some re-balancing. Maybe it's just me, but I have a problem with any system where one character with one action can just completely end an encounter.

[MeeposFire]

As long as there are classes that can change how the game works (powerful spellcasters) and classes that work only within the world (non-spellcasters) the game will never be equal. That is what provides 4e with better balance (and what removes some of the fun for some), that and strong class roles to fill (no one character can do everything).

In other words you need to bring spellcasters down to earth (depower them a bit) not bring up melee. For instance make the highest spell level 6 or 7. Still powerful but it eliminates many of the worst spells and abuse (not all mind you though). You may also want to eliminate multiple meta magics on one spell.

[graeylin]

i was just thinking along these lines, and rather than open a new thread, i found this one in the not so old as to be necrotic pages...

Given that you can't get a fighter 20 to alter reality like a wizard 20, but that you want to get closer, how could you improve some of the lower tier classes?

Fighters (include barbarians, rangers, paladins, etc. perhaps in some of these):
Auto weapon specialization chain, at 1, 5, 10, 15, etc.
Spell resistance equal to 10+1/2 fighter level (or more?)
Can cast dispel magic through weapon at level 3, 1/day. Increases per day as they level. Greater dispel magic channeled through weapon at level 10 or so?
Fast healing
More feats, perhaps the armor enhancing line, etc.?

Pallys and Rangers: see above, as well as
Spellcasting at 1st level
Somatic weaponry free feat
Eschew spell component free feat
Paladin single attribute for casting (charisma)

I don't think these changes would create an equivalent Tier 1, but how close would such things get to tier 1?

[Greenish]

I don't think these changes would create an equivalent Tier 1, but how close would such things get to tier 1?

Might pump paladins to tier 4, depending on details on the spell change. Probably wouldn't get any of the classes to tier 3.

[archon_huskie]

I have tried raising fighter, paladin, and monk in the past. I was mainly raising them from fifth tier and low fourth to upper fourth. to that, I raised the number of skill points for each class by two per level, and allowed the player to take two cross-class skills as class skills.

I allowed paladin and monk to take weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, and greater weapon specialization.

Finally fighter was free to take feats outside of the fighter bonus feats


The game only went to 6th level and the final change was not made use of. I think it made the fighter a little more rounded as a character, but I'm on the fence on if it balanced them.

[Fable Wright]

Possibly replace the tier 4-6 characters with the pathfinder classes- it may require a little tweaking, but overall it should achieve a good result.[/2cents]

[dextercorvia]

I personally think it would help Fighter if Bonus Feats (starting at level 4) could be any feat -- or at least an expanded list. They should have a reliable way of getting full-attacks. I actually prefer a tactical move ability rather than Pounce. Something like:

Tactical Move 1/day per 5 class levels, a Fighter and a number of creatures equal to his Charisma modifier may move 30'. This movement occurs on the Fighter's turn, and all creatures effected must be adjacent to the Fighter or another creature effected. Activating this ability is a swift action.

It wouldn't kill them to get something like the Marshal's Aura progression.

Rogues should have an in-class way of getting HiPS. It wouldn't hurt them to have a few Warlock Invocations. Up the Walls, Flee the Seen, Devil Sight and several others are very Roguish. Perhaps they could trade out 1d6 SA for an Invocation appropriate to their level (Least at 1-5, Lesser at 6-10, etc).

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, to determine the impact you've had, you have to ask the same question you started with: How do these perform when given a variety of scenarios?

Tier 1 classes can always, or almost always, perform extremely well. Wizards, Artificers and Erudites have access to every spell, and as such, if prepared, can cast the appropriate spell.

Stuck in a desert? There's a spell for that.
Invading army? There's a spell for that.
Ever get bored? There's a spell for that.
Need to put up a lot of cabinets? There's a spell for that.

So then, the real problem here, is that a wizard can effectively confront almost any problem, while a fighter is limited to, well, fighting.

Even if you gave him +1000 BAB, +200 to every save, and +100 damage, it wouldn't do much on the scale of actually increasing the number of situations in which he's viable. Congrats, he can single-handedly slay the dragon now, but he still can't cure the plague, solve the Djinn's riddle, find the Holy Grail, defeat the Red Legion, and so on.

He can't even put up the cabinets.