Dragon Hunting Gear [Pathfinder now]

[Mulletmanalive]

The basic theme is to take the kind of dragons from How to Tame Your Dragon and set the PCs up as a team of dragon-hunters and this gear is part of the guild's response to fighting deadly flying horrors...

Pathfindering things up a bit:

Spoiler

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I'm going to switch to the slightly faster and easier to remember [not to mention, note on your character sheet] Pathfinder system. What follows is basically a quick rehash of the PFRPGSRD entry:

Combat Manoeuvre Bonus:
This replaces Grapple and all of the other checks such as for bullrushes and so forth. It's an attack stat and includes the following:

CMB = BAB + Strength mod + Size + Feats

In Pathfinder, size matters a little less, basically just flipping the attack/defence modifiers over, so Large is a +1, while Gargantuan is a +4...

Combat Manoeuvre Defence:
This is the defence stat that opposes attacking CMB values. It is based on the creature's CMB.

CMD = 10 + CMB + Dexterity modifier + Deflection + Dodge + Luck + anything else that will stick to Touch AC...

Checks are always simply d20 + CMB vs CMD and specific moves can be granted bonuses in certain circumstances.

{table]Weapon|

Cost

|

Damage

|

Critical

|

Range

|

Weight

|

Type

Harpoon Bow|300 gp|2d6|x2|40ft|22lb|Piercing

Bolas-caster|350 gp|1d6|x2|30ft|26lb|Bludgeoning[/table]

Harpoon Bow:
The harpoon bow is a slightly outsized heavy crossbow that fires two foot oak bolts capped in spring-loaded grapple blades and have sufficient power to carry inch guage canvas wrapped hemp rope.

The primary point of a Harpoon Bow is that the rope is attached to a heavy, ridged peg that is driven into the ground. Driving a peg into the ground requires a Full action and up to 5 people can cooperate on the driving. Total the Strength modifiers of those who drove in the peg [an action that requires two-handed hammers]; This becomes the peg's CMB while it's CMD is this value +9.

When fired, if a Harpoon Bow's attack roll beats both the target's AC and CMD, it sticks in the wound. This limits the movement of the creature: if it attempts to move beyond the 400ft limits of the rope, it is subject to a Trip check using the peg's CMB. If it avoids falling prone [or plummeting, as is the case with fliers], it must then successfully win a CMB check against the peg to tear it free or have it's movement arrested anyway.

Creatures that have been tethered may make a Wisdom check, DC 15 to realise that they are tethered and running out of slack; if they manage this, they can begin to turn and basically circle the point where they were caught [assuming their manoeuvrability allows for this]. Otherwise, only the ability to hover or the Wingover feat is going to stop something that runs out of rope and can't break free from plummetting.

Bolas-caster
A simple development of the Harpoon Bow, this variant fixes a tube muzzle and a permanent "bolt" fixed through the centre of the tube and affixed to the string itself. Once cocked, the caster is loaded with a bolas and can fire the projectile over a far greater distance than a conventional bolas can be thrown.

Additionally, a normal Bolas-caster fires a bolas sized for a large creature, meaning that the Trip check created by a Bolas-caster is resolved using the firer's CMB.

More to come...

[Cieyrin]

I take it these are Exotics? Also, you probably want a reload mechanic on these, as it seems based on Crossbow technology to me.

[Debihuman]

Can a harpoon bow be wielded by only one person or is there a penalty for doing so? I haven't seen the movie yet. I imagine it would require at least 2 people to use.

Depending on how cinematic you want this to be: A dragon that takes a certain amount of damage to its wings could be slowed (as per the spell) and lose a level of maneuverability until it is healed. Dragons that are injured below Clumsy are treated as Paralyzed.

Stubborn dragons will pull the rope taut, take more damage, and ultimately fall with a THUD! Sadly, this means that the PCs have to watch out to make sure that they aren't under the dragon when this occurs or they will take damage from the weight of the dragon landing on them. Ouch.

Debby

[Cieyrin]

Stubborn dragons will pull the rope taut, take more damage, and ultimately fall with a THUD! Sadly, this means that the PCs have to watch out to make sure that they aren't under the dragon when this occurs or they will take damage from the weight of the dragon landing on them. Ouch.

I believe that's called a Crush Attack.

[Debihuman]

Actually a Crush Attack is when the dragon lands on you on purpose.

Crush (Ex)

This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.

A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down).

If the dragon falls on you from out of the sky, you take damage based on the dragon's weight.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Debby

[Mulletmanalive]

Part of meis thinking that 3.5ing this wasn't the best of plans...

Maybe i should just Pathfinder it up so i can flatten ever-which option down to "X vs CMD."

[Debihuman]

I'm not as familiar with Pathfinder rules yet. :-(

This is one weapon that I think has great potential, even if you aren't interested in the minutia of how it could be used.. This takes the idea of "death from above" to a whole new level. I like it.

Debby

[ericgrau]

Right so if a dragon stops flapping he deals more damage than when he dives at you...

By RAW he isn't an object until dead so the rule doesn't apply. By common sense he isn't hard or rigid enough so he must be petrified first, like the DMG example.

Or... Mario is actually someone who min-maxed the jump skill and intentionally made himself overweight to deal more falling damage since being fat doesn't affect your jump modifier. He then used that to one shot goombas and become the greatest hero in the mushroom kingdom.

[Mulletmanalive]

Basically, my slightly blase opinion of this is down to the fact i have one player who'll furrow his brow and complain if there are two steps in something unless it's modelled on something from 2e and i do all the math for him and another who'll [often inaccurately] start lecturing me about the practicality of x or y weapon.

The most logical effect of the grapple would be a movement penalty if it hits [possible stallout] and then a full on trip with a bonus it they try to leave the limits of the rope...

+15 being an almost guarunteed drop with the nader Bhu has made for me so far

[Debihuman]

Right so if a dragon stops flapping he deals more damage than when he dives at you...

One is a controlled action and the other is not. Being out of control is generally more damaging. The dragon doesn't take damage from a crush attack where it will take damage from falling. Being underneath the dragon is bad for you in both cases, but a falling dragon that lands on you would probably be worse.

By RAW he isn't an object until dead so the rule doesn't apply. By common sense he isn't hard or rigid enough so he must be petrified first, like the DMG example.

The rules do state that if you are dead you become an object. However, nowhere in the rules does it state that that it is the only way for a creature to be treated as if it were an object.

Whether dragon should be treated as a an object falling if it lands on creatures below it is the real question. You could rule that the dragon doesn't begin to fall until it is dead (perfect acceptable). You could rule that if it takes enough damage to its wings (say at least 1/4 of total hit points), it loses a level of maneuverability. Since there is nothing below Clumsy, it falls and is treated as an object for the purpose of falling.

Now, I'm not saying it has to be done this way or that it even should be done this way. I'm just giving this as an example of how to make it possible using standard mechanics.

I still think there should be a Reflex save for creatures who are underneath the dragon when it falls. You could even get a bonus based on how far the dragon is from you. Now we're getting into nit-picky mechanics. Some people like them, some don't. How far you want to take this is a personal choice.

What are the odds of a dragon falling out of the sky and landing on you? It's never happened in any game that I've played.

Debby

[Mulletmanalive]

What are the odds of a dragon falling out of the sky and landing on you? It's never happened in any game that I've played.

Debby

I think, to date, four player characters have been killed by vanquished foes falling on them in my games. Most of those weren't flying though.

And one guy got hit by a burning biplane...

[Cieyrin]

One is a controlled action and the other is not. Being out of control is generally more damaging. The dragon doesn't take damage from a crush attack where it will take damage from falling. Being underneath the dragon is bad for you in both cases, but a falling dragon that lands on you would probably be worse.

It's only more damaging in that the dragon is likely to hurt itself in the landing, as opposed to a Crush Attack, where he can control breaking its fall on the target. I don't think flailing out of control as you fall would really mangle somebody any more than choosing to dive bomb the target, as the dive bomber can potentially accelerate faster to achieve terminal velocity, which should technically be more damaging. Whether the rules reflect that is something else entirely. As it's been stated more than once, D&D isn't supposed to be a physics book, it's to try to provide mechanics that are easy and fast to use while accurate to what's likely to happen, which they manage to differing degrees, given not every designer was a physicist prior to designing a game.

What are the odds of a dragon falling out of the sky and landing on you? It's never happened in any game that I've played.

You just haven't been playing the right games, then.

[Debihuman]

You just haven't been playing the right games, then.

LOL! I guess not.

Harpoon bow is still cool. Unfortunately, I'm not used to Pathfinder. Any chance on seeing updated 3.5 stats for it?

Debby

[Mulletmanalive]

Harpoon Bow:
The harpoon bow is a slightly outsized heavy crossbow that fires two foot oak bolts capped in spring-loaded grapple blades and have sufficient power to carry inch guage canvas wrapped hemp rope.

The primary point of a Harpoon Bow is that the rope is attached to a heavy, ridged peg that is driven into the ground. Driving a peg into the ground requires a Full action and up to 5 people can cooperate on the driving. Total the Strength modifiers of those who drove in the peg [an action that requires two-handed hammers]; This becomes the peg's "TRIP BONUS."

When fired, if a Harpoon Bow's attack roll beats the target's AC, it sticks in the wound, unless the target can make a successful reflex save against the attack roll. This limits the movement of the creature: if it attempts to move beyond the 400ft limits of the rope, it is subject to a Trip check using the peg's "TRIP BONUS". If it avoids falling prone [or plummeting, as is the case with fliers], it must then successfully win a "TRIP BONUS" check against the peg to tear it free or have it's movement arrested anyway.

Creatures that have been tethered may make a Wisdom check, DC 15 to realise that they are tethered and running out of slack; if they manage this, they can begin to turn and basically circle the point where they were caught [assuming their manoeuvrability allows for this]. Otherwise, only the ability to hover or the Wingover feat is going to stop something that runs out of rope and can't break free from plummetting.

This is just the text of the Pathfinder version with a few words substituted. I think it's actually less efficient now, but that's just a guess. I'm not sure why "Trip Bonus" came out as capitals... stupid autoreplace

[Debihuman]

I'm even more confused by all this.

Say I have 5 people working on the bow, each with Str 18 (+4) that would be +20 total.

What are the numbers to apply that so see if the Rope holds (hemp rope generally has 2 hit points and can be burst with a DC 23 Strength check).

Also, you say the rope has a 400-foot rope so I wanted to know if there was something more to it.

Debby

[Mulletmanalive]

In order:

1 - Yes, five strength 18 character working for one round to drive the peg into the ground fencepost style would leave the line with a +20 bonus on the Trip check.

2 - The "hemp rope sucks" thing is...well, i work with ropes and tie up boats as part of my job so I find that hillarious.

I've gone with a similar guage of rope to that used on Victorian harpoons and most of the time, that broke the bollard or harpoon rather than the rope unless it was already worn. Reason for this is mostly because of elastic bounce but still, 70 ton cetacaen vs about 1200-lb of avian dragon.

Bounce. If they got down on the ground, they could happily chomp through it though.

3 - 400ft of 3 inch guage rope weighs a great deal. I had planned to suggest a more believable 100ft but that seemed virtually unplayable.

Aside - looking up in the American Caeclopedia, the minimum weight limit for saleable 1-3/4 inch guage hemp rope is 4,100-lb for untarred rope and 3,200-lb for tarred rope. Who knew?

[Debihuman]

I understand why you'd use tarred rope for sailing (it would retard water damage to the rope and keep it from rotting) but would you need tarred rope for hooking the dragon with a harpoon bow? I guess it makes the rope stronger and less likely to break as well.


I'm not sure what the stats of tarred rope would be in comparison to standard hemp rope in terms of Strength and hit points. You already have increased the length from 100 ft. to 400 ft. The extra weight would also explain why you need more people to handle the weapon. I think you should have a minimum Str bonus necessary to handle all this.

Just more nitpicking.

Also, there are no mechanics for plummeting. I would simply add that a plummeting creature falls like an object for purposes of it landing on a creature below but takes damage itself as a normal creature.

Debby

[Cieyrin]

2 - The "hemp rope sucks" thing is...well, i work with ropes and tie up boats as part of my job so I find that hillarious.

Aside - looking up in the American Caeclopedia, the minimum weight limit for saleable 1-3/4 inch guage hemp rope is 4,100-lb for untarred rope and 3,200-lb for tarred rope. Who knew?

Just another incidence of WotC designers not doing their research or making a guess. That's nothing new, really, like how the standard D&D world is assumed to be low gravity, if the rate of falling is to be believed (150' in the first round, 300' every round thereafter. ).