Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Can you feel the spell end?

    Is there any RAW rule for knowing when a spell ends?

    For example: A simple spell like Mount have a 2 hr / caster level duration. A level 5 Wizard summons a Mount, packs the pony full of loot and heads off towards the nearest town. After 10 hours, the pony disappears, the loot falls to the ground and breaks into tiny pieces. The Wizard curses loudly.

    Is there any RAW support for a Wizard to know when a Mount will disappear, or in the general case, when a spell he cast previously will end? Or does he have to keep track of the time with some separate item?

    In that case, he'd have to "know" about meta-gaming things like caster level, and stuff. It doesn't seem right.

    If there is no RAW support for this, would it hurt the game to add it? Can it be abused?

    Thanks for any input.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Well if the spell descriptor (which may or may not be completely meta-game) says 2/hr a level then the wizard would know not to last longer than what it says.

    I always thought spell descriptors were like reading nutritonal facts or a operation manual...

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    New York
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Well, for almost all spells with durations greater than instantaneous, the duration is set by caster level. Caster level is a direct measure of the Wizard's raw power that we can quantify out of character, the Wizard would most likely know how powerful he is (but would not think of himself as CL 5) and should be able to gauge the limit of his spells. My justification for this is that there is no roll to determine if a Wizard misses with a Fireball because he overestimated its range (ex - a CL 5 fireball has 600 ft range, and a wizard tries to hurl it 700ft). So it is reasonable to assume that a spellcaster knows the dynamics of his own spells. While this is not based on any actual rules, it is an implied fact.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Think of it kind of like throwing a baseball.. You know roughly how far you can throw it after throwing it once. After you throw it a few times you can then throw it farther than before... You don't know exactly but you have a good idea of it.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    It seems reasonable to say that a caster would at least know the minimum duration of any spell cast. Some spells have a random element to their duration, though, and a caster probably wouldn't know exactly when they'd expire. Also, if a GM wanted to be tough, she could rule that the caster knew the minimum duration when the spell was cast but wasn't automatically keeping track of elapsed time.

    However, in the case of any spell like Mount that is Dismissible, the mage should definitely know when it is about to expire, as the mage still has a mental connection to the spell and would feel its energies unravelling.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    In that case, he'd have to "know" about meta-gaming things like caster level, and stuff. It doesn't seem right.
    Caster level is metagaming?
    When magic is as quantized as it is in 3.5, it seems intuitive to me that wizards would know their "caster level".

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grelna the Blue View Post
    However, in the case of any spell like Mount that is Dismissible, the mage should definitely know when it is about to expire, as the mage still has a mental connection to the spell and would feel its energies unravelling.
    Ah, good point. The Dismissable attribute on a spell would make sense in this scenario. Thanks!

    Not sure if it's RAW, but it's a reasonable way to read RAW.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foryn Gilnith View Post
    Caster level is metagaming?
    When magic is as quantized as it is in 3.5, it seems intuitive to me that wizards would know their "caster level".
    I don't know, it seems wierd to me, just as weird as having the characters know they "took" a certain Feat. Either you have the following situation:

    1) No meta-game knowledge:

    "I can unleash pretty good magical energy, but with Fire-spells I'm even better!"

    or:

    2) Full meta-game knowledge:
    "I am caster level 5, but with Fire-spells I'm a 6, because I took the Fiery Burst Reserve Feat"

    The middle ground seems unreasonable:

    1.5) "I'm caster level 5, but with Fire-spells I'm a 6, because I worked extra hard with Fire-studies, and I found the ancient secret to cast bursts of fire at will."


    But, then again, YMMV.
    Last edited by Thespianus; 2010-12-30 at 04:20 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ernir's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    I don't think spells give a warning that they're about to expire, I don't remember any such general rule. Also, Wind Walk specifically mentions that it gives a warning, suggesting that it isn't the rule.

    However...
    Quote Originally Posted by Foryn Gilnith View Post
    Caster level is metagaming?
    When magic is as quantized as it is in 3.5, it seems intuitive to me that wizards would know their "caster level".
    This.

    Even if you don't have a timer available, you would have to be pretty oblivious to never notice whether the mage armor spell you cast before breakfast every morning expires before or after noon. This is case where it would be very obvious, but really, I would expect a spellcaster to know how long their spells last, even if it isn't to the second.
    Halfling healer avatar by Akrim.elf.

    My sarcasm is never blue.

    Personal stuff: The Diablo 2 game (DMing), BBCode syntax highlighter for KDE
    CharOp: Lists of Necessary Magic Items
    Homebrew: My proudest achievement, a translation of vancian spellcasting to psionic mechanics. Other brew can be found in my Homebrewer's Extended Signature.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Kansas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    I would say a decent Spellcraft check (DC: 10+spell level) would let you correctly guess the lenth of a spell.

    Or if you had Detect Magic on, you could make a Spellcraft check to see how much longer the spell will last.

    In games where I'm playing a Wizard, I know my "power" due to the fact that I have access to certain spells.

    Plus, when you hire a spellcaster, I'm sure there is some way of figuering out the price for spells. So most spellcasters should know their "caster level". Even if they don't call it caster level.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Koury's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    I've always assumed that characters knew. I often pass notes to the party Wizard that read "Your Stinking Cloud is dissipating. Spell ends in two rounds." or something like that to remind my players.
    I will NOT succumb to evil!
    ...Unless she's cute.
    _____________
    Avatar by Miss Nobody

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    @Thespianus:

    "I'm caster level 5, but because I worked extra hard with Fire studies and can manage fire energy more efficiently, my fire spells are more effective. [I may or may not know that the effectiveness increase is relatively constant, since these techniques are poorly studied and I've never bothered keeping track. If I do notice this, it would be a fairly simple matter to determine that its effective magnitude is Caster Level +1.]"

    This is what my intuition suggests. But, then again, intuition can often lead to tangled and inconsistent logic. Since your tastes vary, that's fine for you, I guess.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    Is there any RAW rule for knowing when a spell ends?

    For example: A simple spell like Mount have a 2 hr / caster level duration. A level 5 Wizard summons a Mount, packs the pony full of loot and heads off towards the nearest town. After 10 hours, the pony disappears, the loot falls to the ground and breaks into tiny pieces. The Wizard curses loudly.

    Is there any RAW support for a Wizard to know when a Mount will disappear, or in the general case, when a spell he cast previously will end? Or does he have to keep track of the time with some separate item?

    In that case, he'd have to "know" about meta-gaming things like caster level, and stuff. It doesn't seem right.

    If there is no RAW support for this, would it hurt the game to add it? Can it be abused?

    Thanks for any input.
    The caster knows the spell's duration but doesn't automatically know how much time has elapsed.

    (Note that if you did allow the latter, you'd have people casting spells like Arcane Mark to give themselves an 'internal clock' for measuring time in general, even if they don't care about the Arcane Mark's duration.)

    If you'd like game world characters to know time elapsed accurately, the DM can just posit that clockwork timepieces are not unheard of (perhaps very expensive, but PCs at level 2+ are wealthy by commoner standards), even in some canon settings. In Forgotten Realms I typically explain away certain elements as "gnomish", as FR gnomes are on the steampunk-y end of medieval-fantasy.

    Or make up a cantrip that gives you an internal clock for 24 hours.

    Also, things like small portable sundials (work OK if you're outside in a sunny place, and you have a compass to orient it).

    And some things like Traveler's Mount can also be dealt with by just having the wizard estimate conservatively (but if your players push this you might need to make up rules for how accurate a typical human's sense of time is).
    Last edited by ffone; 2010-12-30 at 05:50 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Banned
     
    BlueWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    1.I'd point out that figuring out the duration of a spell would be a part of a spellcasters training. They simply know how long their spells last. The hard way would be for the spellcaster to simply cast the spell, watch a clock ans see how long it lasts. This would be one of the 'behind the scenes things' that spellcaster's do.

    2.With high intelligences, the average spellcaster can keep track of time good. So if they know the spell lasts an hour, they know how long an hour is.

    3.Any spell still active and controlled by the caster could give a 'tingle' of running out of power. So the caster could feel the spell slowly weaken, maybe three rounds before it does.

    4.And there is no reason any spell effect could not give of a 'warning' that it's about to end...if you know what to look for. A mount, for example, might start to fade away, just a bit at the edges...or it's hoofs might give off a bit of smoke.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Washington St.

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    I would rule that any wizard worth his salt would just naturally know the length of time that has expired. In fact, any human should be able to internally tell time and keep track of it. That's true in the real world, why not in the game world? If an adventurer couldn't do that... well, he shouldn't be an adventurer! Unless he's a Gnome, you can never count on those guys keeping track of time, or equipment, or even stay on topic! I once was campaigning with this Gnome, and I swear, you could never count on that guy to keep track of anything. He'd start up a conversation about nothing, and then he'd...

    ... oh crap, the time. I'm late for work. Gotta go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    Casters effectively lost every weakness they had (from AD&D), and everyone else suffered for it. Since this was done as a direct result of player requests ("make magic better!"), I consider it one of the all-time best reasons NOT to listen to player requests.

    Most people wouldn't know what makes a good game if it stripped naked, painted itself purple, and jumped up on a table singing "look what a good game I am!".

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Brea, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    I feel like its a necessary abstraction. Does anyone complain when the fighter knows how to quantify his Base Attack Bonus for Power Attack purposes?

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Jjeinn-tae's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Washington

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarawara View Post
    I would rule that any wizard worth his salt would just naturally know the length of time that has expired. In fact, any human should be able to internally tell time and keep track of it. That's true in the real world, why not in the game world? If an adventurer couldn't do that... well, he shouldn't be an adventurer! Unless he's a Gnome, you can never count on those guys keeping track of time, or equipment, or even stay on topic! I once was campaigning with this Gnome, and I swear, you could never count on that guy to keep track of anything. He'd start up a conversation about nothing, and then he'd...

    ... oh crap, the time. I'm late for work. Gotta go.
    Some of us are not so lucky to have that internal clock... But in a wizard's case, I'm going to agree they probably have some knowledge of caster level, regardless of what they qualify it as, and probably, in their reality, it is measured in much smaller blocks of somewhat noticeable effect. They would reasonably understand what it gives them for duration, but I think the spell would only let them know if it was expiring if they were linked to it through concentration or similar.
    Game systems I play: DnD 3.5, Pathfinder, Star Wars Saga, Vampire: The Masquerade, Dungeons: The Dragoning, AFBME, Atomic Highway, Dark Heresy, Legend of the 5 Rings 4E, MAID and... EQRPG... Does anyone actually play that?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Agreed with J; it only feels metagamey b/c it's a discrete, integer number rather than a continuous value ("I'm caster level 3.72"); and spell slots are also discrete (i.e. Vancian).

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Some spells like fly describe themselves as ending slowly and safely which prevents such problems. From this and since nothing else says otherwise it's implied that you don't know. But usually it's not a problem. Even with a mount a saddlebag falling 5 feet won't break its contents. The spell only provides a saddle & etc. so the bags must have been provided non-magically.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-12-31 at 05:58 AM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    FelixG's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Just keep track of the sun, "I am an Int X wizard, during my days of training i often studied the position of the sun and moon in the night sky to judge the length of my spells."

    that way you can just give a glance up to check the time and correctly estimate how long your spell is going to last.

    Though what kind of loot were you carrying? that it was able to shatter on the ground after falling off an imaginary horse
    Quote Originally Posted by Esser-Z View Post
    We can peform: dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind. Because your friends don't perform: Dance and if they don't perform: dance, well, they're no friends of mine!
    Awesome avatar by Ninjaman!

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Can you feel the spell end?

    Ok, thanks everyone. I'm sorry for the thread necromancy, but I just wanted to thank everyone involved. :)

    And, yes, a simple Spellcraft-check would suffice in any cases where the duration of the spell is critical to the story/adventure.

    (The Mount didn't really disappear and cause all the loot to break, it was just an example ;) )

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •