ECL of Snakes for Elder Serpent Template

[Matamane]

Dragon 313 has the ECL of a Huge Elder Viper as 10, so by my math, by taking away the template the ECL of a Huge Elder Viper is 5.

So 2 questions, 1st, is my math and logic correct?

2nd is using similar calculations and your own adjustments, what would be the ECL of smaller Vipers, ie Small, Medium or Large.

[Matamane]

Bump it up, shame to make a new topic asking the same question

[Cog]

For the math: yes, that template increases the ECL by 5 (two HD and three LA). However, vipers have an intelligence of 1, which disqualifies them from being characters, and makes the matter of their ECL moot unless you're swapping out for some other template instead - by which point you're better off just evaluating the result anyway.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Dragon 313 has the ECL of a Huge Elder [Serpent] [Huge] Viper as 10

ftfy

so by my math, by taking away the template the ECL of a Huge Elder Viper is 5.

no. ECL = RHD + LA + CL. 10 = 8 + 2 + 0 in this case. Since more than the entire "2" is the Elder Serpent template the LA is -1 for the base race. But the (cohort) by consensus adds atleast LA1...

The Huge Viper might not have enough intelligence to be a playable character since before the template, the snake's intelligence could be anywhere from -3 to 5 (but we know its actually 1 from the 3.5 MM).

Keep in mind there are still update issues. I would think the LA - entry for 3.5 would trump this dragon mag anyways.

Furthermore the LA given for the templated creature is cohort only. So by RAW, this isn't a PC race anyways. Assuming a nice DM that interprets the update in your favor but keeps the int AND ignores the cohort restriction, you still have six ugly RHD that need to be level-drained away.

Even for ECL1, the +5nat, +6str, +4dex, +2con +2wis isn't worth the -10int, -8cha ... unless you were to grab this Elder Serpent template that is not quite worth the LA+3.

[Goonthegoof]

The whole point of the elder serpent is giving the creature enough intelligence to play, it adds 2d6+6 intelligence.

[Matamane]

Assuming I can get the template from the get go, would a Large Viper be ECL 1 before the application of the Elder Serpent template?

[hamishspence]

Might depend on if a Large Viper is "as bad" as a Huge Viper (relative to its Hit Dice) or worse.

Elder Serpent grants +2 Hit Dice. So a Large Viper would have 5 HD after the template is applied, and 3 HD before the template is applied.

So- before the template, it would have 3HD, and if the LA listed in the sample creature is an indication of the base race having -1 LA, (since the template itself has an LA of +3) - then the 3HD Viper would have an Effective Character Level of 2.

However- if the extra size between Huge and Large "counts" as raising the base race's LA, then the Large Viper might have an LA of -2 , compared to the Huge Viper's LA of -1.