[3.5] Optimized Cleric without DMM: Persist

[doc*sk]

I am trying to run my cleric so that he is not relegated into the healbot role. I have found several posts that explain how to do this with the Divine Metamagic feat (here and here). But the DMM feat is house ruled differently in my group.

In our game, the rule to try to balance out Divine Metamagic is that you cannot use the appropriate DMM feat until you can cast that level of spells. For example, the feat Persistent Spell adds 6 levels to the spell, so casting a 1st level spell with that feat uses a 7th level spell slot. According to our rules, I couldn't not use the DMM: Persistent Spell feat on those spells until my cleric is 11th level.

So, my question is what are your suggestions on optimizing a 3.5 cleric without using DMM: Persistent Spell until higher levels?

Thanks in advance.

[Elric VIII]

In my experience, until you begin to get spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might, you are best used in a buffer/debuffer role.

This is helped by taking the Divine Magician ACF from Unearthed Arcana. This allows you to give up a domain and add any Sor/Wiz spell of the Abjuration, Divination, Necromancy to your spell list (not just domain slots). Needless to say, True Strike + Power Attack can work nicely. Also things like Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation are all fair game. If you use the Zen Archery feat from Complete Warrior you can use Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks.

As for spells, here are some that I use at low levels.

Level 1:
Shield of Faith
Divine Favor
Doom
Bane

Level 2:
Bull's Strength
Spiritual Weapon
Calm Emotions

Level 3:
Prayer (this + Bane makes a good early debuff suite)
Bestow Curse

Once you hit the higher levels, you can fill the lower level slots with utility, such as Augery, Resist Elements, etc. But for the beginning your job is to grab some heavy armor and buff the tank while he's killing stuff, and put yourself between the enemies and the squishies (Wizard, Rogue).

As for weapons, depending non whether you take war domain, Longspear is a great choice since it is 2-handed, which will allow you to cast spells without sheathing.

Remember that the Summon Monster line is good as well, you can summon them around the enemies to provide flanking and have them use the Aid Another option to add to AC or To-Hit (PHB pg154).

[gbprime]

Well being a cleric, you still have a million other options, most of them still Tier 3 or better. Tell us what you want to DO with it, and we'll advise.

Role? Motif? Flavah?

[monkeysammich]

The cleric I am currently playing is a Human Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1

He has been fun to play throughout his leveling... more for the way I play him than anything else. He's secondary melee with buffs like Recitations, Mass Conviction, Mass Aid and Mass Shield of Faith for everyone.

Feats are: Exotic Armor Proficiency (Mountain Plate), Shied Specialization, Shield Ward, Divine Shield... also get Diehard from Ordained Champion and WF: Longsword from the War Domain.

Its less a healbot, and more a paladin with better casting. And swift action Flamestrikes.

[gbprime]

I've got a totally different cleric going. He's the only living disciple of a forgotten god, domains water, dreams, repose, and he's not right in the head. Think Waterbender meets The Ring or The Grudge.

Human Paragon 3 - Cleric 7 - Contemplative 2 (campaign required us to take a "background class", and racial levels counted, hence human paragon. Also, no PrC before level 10.)

FEATS - Servant of the Fallen, Water Heritage, Spirit Sense, Water Devotion, Sanctify Water, Clap of Thunder, Extra Spell

(DM required Extra Spell for a spell I wanted to create... Hydrokinesis, a water FX version of Telekinesis, which completes the Water Bender motif. Good news is I can spontaneously cast it.)

IN combat, he is a contingency caster, covering things like Mass Resist Energy, Swift Etherealness, Energy Aegis, summoning water elemental meat shields, and grappling/disarming with Telekinesis. On the rare occasions when he attacks someone, he can use a sonic touch attack from his reserve feat or Ice Axe. (Ice Axe and Telekinesis are particularly effective when Empowered, and he has 2 rods of Empower now.)

And in 12 levels, he has never cast a healing spell. The group has a healbot for that.

[Elric VIII]

monkeysammich has a good point, clerics can enter OC after level 4, with the only relevant prerequisite being K (religion) 7 ranks.

Also, something to consider is the {Scrubbed} Divine Vigor feat. This lasts for 10 rounds per Cha modifier. The extra movement can be helpful in heavy armor and the temp HP lets you save on healing yourself, since you will be doing some healing.

{Scrubbed}Travel Devotion could also help you with the mobility that clerics lack.

You could also go leadership for a Healer Healbot. That won't take away spotlight from the group, and it does have some useful, if not great abilities.

[Pigkappa]

Ask your DM before choosing any combination of spells or feats to "optimize" your cleric. If he's smart enough to prevent you from using DMM to be much better than your teammates, he's unlikely to be happy when he finds out you have another way to break the game.

[Urpriest]

Ask your DM before choosing any combination of spells or feats to "optimize" your cleric. If he's smart enough to prevent you from using DMM to be much better than your teammates, he's unlikely to be happy when he finds out you have another way to break the game.

Nobody here is suggesting breaking the game though. The idea is to simply have a satisfyingly powerful character.

[Keld Denar]

I like the anti-caster cleric. Cleric3/ChurchInquisitor6/SacEx10/Cont1. You get the Inquisition domain from CI, as well as the ability to auto-save vs any illusions you see. Take Divine Defiance from Fiendish CodexII for immediate action counterspells and buy a Dispelling Cord from the MIC. You have a +6 untyped bonus on Dispel Magic. If you also snag Arcane Mastery (take 10 on CL checks), you can automatically counterspell any caster up to 5 levels higher than you by burning 1 TU attempt and 1 prepared Dispel Magic slot.

Other than that, just hang back a bit and drop a couple of combat buffs like Prayer or RRotF and be the magic against magic while your party plays the role of steel vs steel.

Also, Divine Spell Power is great for turboboosting your CL. It gives you a built in +3 bonus, and you get a +3 bonus for being in your persistant Consecrate field (see Sacred Exorcist), and you can easily get another +3-4 from Charisma to automatically make the +0 without rolling. If you roll well, you can get up to +4 CLs, which makes spells like Magic Vestaments and Greater Magic Weapon really effective.

[doc*sk]

I'm looking at a cleric that can fill in for a leaving mage. But I also would like to be able to go toe-to-toe with undead and lycanthropes (his homeland is overrun with the latter).

I am joining the game late, so I'm making a 7th-level character (I'm thinking Clr3/ChInq4).

His two domains will probably be Sun and Moon (from FR).

[Elric VIII]

In that case, I would definately go for Divine Magician for some of those great no save ray spells and debuffs. My current Cleric has:

1 Ray of Enfeeblement
2 Ray of Sickness (SPC)
3 Ray of Exhaustion
4 Enervation
5 Waves of Fatigue
6 Antimagic Field (as a 6th level spell, rather than 8th)
7 Waves of Exhaustion
8 Avascular Mass (SPC)
9 Wail of the Banshee

[doc*sk]

Where can I find Divine Magician?

[Escheton]

Complete Mage

DM handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=8344.0

[Gullintanni]

In my experience, until you begin to get spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might, you are best used in a buffer/debuffer role.

This is helped by taking the Divine Magician ACF from Unearthed Arcana. This allows you to give up a domain and add any Sor/Wiz spell of the Abjuration, Divination, Necromancy to your spell list (not just domain slots). Needless to say, True Strike + Power Attack can work nicely. Also things like Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation are all fair game. If you use the Zen Archery feat from Complete Warrior you can use Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks.

In that case, I would definately go for Divine Magician for some of those great no save ray spells and debuffs. My current Cleric has:

1 Ray of Enfeeblement
2 Ray of Sickness (SPC)
3 Ray of Exhaustion
4 Enervation
etc...

I'm considering running the spells above with the following feats with my Divine Magician:

Zen Archery (For Wis on ranged touch attacks)
Reach Spell (Converting touch attacks to Rays)
Split Ray (For doubling up on the above Rays)

Does this seem too cheesy? I'm also considering Sudden Maximize for turbo-charging Enervations. My Cleric's primary focus will obviously be de-buffing/control/and counterspelling. I'm going to take Divine Defiance at some point as well.

[Elric VIII]

I'm using Split Ray, Zen Archery, and Easy Metamagic to make Split Ray only +1 level. It's working out so far, causing no trouble with the DM. The only thing is that Arcane spells seem to have the best debuffs, so you will be using these a lot, I'm not sure Reach spell will be that useful.

[Tvtyrant]

Clerics are a Tier 1 class. You can do any role; it all depends on which one you want to use.

If you want to be a wizard as a cleric you pick the magic domain which essentially gives you UMD, as well as some fairly good spells. Its bonus is the use of Wizard scrolls and items. If you want to go SoD pick the Destruction Domain and you get a permanent slot for Harm, Disintegrate and some other goodies; you also normally get a lot of SoDs like Slay Living. If you want to really melee it up go Earth Domain and Strength or War domains for the Iron Body spell to add to your divine buffs.

The main thing is you want to be neutral on at least one axis in order to keep the axis spells open. I suggest Lawful Neutral for ease of RP and access to Evil spells like Desecrate and Harm. Ahhh yeah, Harm. You also get the ability to use Planar Ally for anything not anthenema to you if you don't have a deity, so don't take one. Again using Lawful Neutral with a RP that concentrates on destroying Chaos lets you use Pit Fiends at high levels.

[Endarire]

You could be a Cleric Malconvoker.

Plenty of Wizards summon. You can buff 'em all and your party with AoEs like prayer!

[Tvtyrant]

If your looking at prestigey goodness you could always go Radiant Servant of Pelor. Its mostly healing oriented, but you can then use the spell slot savings to prep other spells.

If I was going to make a Cleric I would pick Lawful Neutral with Rebuke Undead and spontaneous healing, maxed Wis, high Charisma, good con and strength, dump the rest. Then I would take the Magic and Travel domains for utility and teleport, arm myself with a heavy metal shield and platemail and a morningstar and concentrate on self buffs. Of particular use are going to be: Greater Magic Vestmant, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. They save you a lot on WBL, which lets you get more useful enhancements like SoulStealing or Fortification to add to your equipment. Then I would invest in some utility scrolls for the inevitable. For early combat I would use Enlarge Person on the tank (which may be myself) and let me/them beat the enemy down. Later buffs get better, but that one is gold.

[Gullintanni]

I'm using Split Ray, Zen Archery, and Easy Metamagic to make Split Ray only +1 level. It's working out so far, causing no trouble with the DM. The only thing is that Arcane spells seem to have the best debuffs, so you will be using these a lot, I'm not sure Reach spell will be that useful.

I'm just not sure what else to take in terms of metamagics. Split Ray has any other metamagic as a pre-req. Without DMM, a lot of the metamagics seem less than ideal. This character is being built using Living Greyhawk rules, which outlaws just about every metamagic reducer out there, so I'm going to be running a character focused on debuffs and counterspelling using Divine Defiance.

I should also mention that in Living Greyhawk, characters are restricted to non-evil deities. I'm running a Cleric of Wee Jas using the updated Greyhawk domains (which include the Magic, Inqusition and Domination domains). Good to know that one or two people out there think Zen Archery is worth it just for Rays though.

[Fizban]

You don't need to persist combat buffs as long as you have the time to cast them. On the flipside, if your party just runs into combat (literally: there's something there? I kill it! Ugh), then you won't have time to cast more than one buff at most. So, if you want to do melee, I'd make sure the rest of your stats and permanent gear are up to par with expected primary melee setups. That way you only need the one Divine Power or Righteous Might right when combat starts. One thing to note is that if you don't intend to cast save or dies, then you don't need to fully prioritize your wisdom. For example, with the other melee characters running 22 strength before rage I needed three buffs to catch up, and the rest of the party was just walking attack roll machines without any combat planning or strategy so I never had time to do so.

It really isn't that hard to carve out a simple melee role alongside the rest of the party. Decent strength and con scores with Power Attack and Divine Power is all you need to stand there and make solid full attacks. Watch out for the level 5-ish area though. The point where the full BAB guys are getting 2 attacks while you only have one and no Divine Power to back you up, is a brutal place to try and melee.

[hamishspence]

The main thing is you want to be neutral on at least one axis in order to keep the axis spells open. I suggest Lawful Neutral for ease of RP and access to Evil spells like Desecrate and Harm. Ahhh yeah, Harm.

Harm isn't actually an Evil spell:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm

Desecrate, however, is.

Offhand, I can't think of any Good deities that offer the Destruction domain- so in general it might be a good idea to be Neutral on the Good/Evil axis and take a Neutral deity.

But if you're going to be a Undead-raiser specializing in Desecrate+altar+souped-up zombies/skeletons, Evil probably works better than Neutral- if the DM enforces "repeated Evil spells eventually lead to alignment change"- which is suggested to be the standard rule in Eberron Campaign Setting.

[Tvtyrant]

Hmmm, he didn't say Eberron, but even if that were true you could simply cast a bunch of spells on the good alignment and they would even out. And going evil only works in an evil campaign for the most part; I was born with a heartful of neutrality.

[hamishspence]

Hmmm, he didn't say Eberron, but even if that were true you could simply cast a bunch of spells on the good alignment and they would even out.

That's not how it works- casting evil spells risks leading characters to evil alignment

(the Malconvoker specifically notes that it has an exception to the rule- implying that it is in fact the default rule, as is suggested in BoVD and Eberron Campaign Setting)

but, casting good spells doesn't "balance it out".

Heroes of Horror does allow for good intentions, and overall Good behaviour, to balance out minor Evil acts and produce a Neutral alignment, though.

What makes Eberron different isn't that Evil spells can lead to Evil alignment, but the fact that Good clerics can cast Evil spells at all- in normal D&D, only Neutral clerics can cast Evil spells.

[Gullintanni]

That's not how it works- casting evil spells risks leading characters to evil alignment

(the Malconvoker specifically notes that it has an exception to the rule- implying that it is in fact the default rule, as is suggested in BoVD and Eberron Campaign Setting)

but, casting good spells doesn't "balance it out".

It doesn't really matter. Wee Jas is extreme Lawful Neutral, but she's also a death goddess. As long as the spells cast fit with the code of conduct of her Clerics, it's simply regarded as service to her will.

[hamishspence]

Yup- plus- as a LN deity- her clerics can "slip to LE" and she'll still grant them spells.

Change to NE though, and they'll break the 1-step rule.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Also, have you ever considered being a Necromancer-type cleric? Necro Clerics don't truely need DMM: persist unless they are going the Bone Knight/Necro-Gish route as all they really need to do is desecrate an area and animate an undead horde to do their work for them while they launch negative energy spells to heal their undead and harm enemies. No DMM: Persisting needed to do that. If you where to go that way deathbound and undeath are the best domains though Divine Magician is still a good option for a necro cleric and if you happen to be evil the evil domain is, alright, for a necro cleric. Heck, a necro cleric dose not actually have to be evil either. A netural cleric can still rebuke and cast [evil] spells, after all.

Oh, and if you are going to make ANY long ranged/non-melee build I would highly advise you use the Cloistered Cleric ACF. You lose good armor and get the worst BAB you can have, but in return you get a few spells added to your list, the knowldage domain as a bonus domain(which gives you all knowldage skills as class skills), bardic knowldage and 6+ Int modifier skill points instead of the standard 2+ int that clerics get. Simply put, if you don't plan to be a Gish/melee-cleric and see your character mostly staying out of melee then there is absolutly no reason not to take cloistered cleric over the standard cleric unless there is some RP related thing that makes cloistered cleric not an option or your DM banned Unearthed Arcana.

[hamishspence]

Heck, a necro cleric dose not actually have to be evil either. A netural cleric can still rebuke and cast [evil] spells, after all.

In fact, if the deity is Wee Jas, they must Rebuke- Neutral cleric's of Wee Jas can't choose to Turn.

However, the PHB does say "rebuking is an evil act". There's plenty of precedent (BoVD, Champions of Ruin, Eberron Campaign Setting) for committing evil acts being at least a little problematic if you want to keep your Neutral alignment.

Heroes of Horror suggests that to keep your Neutral alignment and prevent your Evil acts from moving you to Evil aligned- you must have overall good intentions- and behave like a good person aside from your evil acts.

So your Neutral Undead Master cleric, would have to be a hero- as brave and altruistic as most good guys- if they want to stay Neutral. In which case, the minor Evil acts would not be enough to give them an Evil alignment.

[Gullintanni]

Simply put, if you don't plan to be a Gish/melee-cleric and see your character mostly staying out of melee then there is absolutly no reason not to take cloistered cleric over the standard cleric unless there is some RP related thing that makes cloistered cleric not an option or your DM banned Unearthed Arcana.

In fact, if the deity is Wee Jas, they must Rebuke- Neutral cleric's of Wee Jas can't choose to Turn.

However, the PHB does say "rebuking is an evil act". There's plenty of precedent (BoVD, Champions of Ruin, Eberron Campaign Setting) for committing evil acts being at least a little problematic if you want to keep your Neutral alignment.

Cloistered Cleric is from Unearthed Arcana, which isn't used in the Living Greyhawk setting so no dice. Otherwise I'd agree. As for evil and rebuking beng problematic, again, it fits Wee Jas' code of conduct. Her order praises scholarship, discipline and law in all of her portfolios including death.

That being said, according to Wee Jas' Living Greyhawk code of conduct, commanding chaotic undead is a high blasphemy without her exrpessed permission. Again this characters primary focus will be on Debuff and Dispel. Maybe some limited animation/command of undead, but given the prestige classes im taking, my end result will be turning as a 15th level cleric.

I could pick up some items from LM but I'll never be optimized as a necro. It'll be Zen Archery + Divine Magician for No Save Debuff Ray attacks. Divine Defiance + Magic Domain and Spontaneous Domain Casting for immediate action counterspelling + Inquisition domain through Church Inquisitor PrC for +4 to dispel checks.

Also, Living Greyhawk's Magic Domain has Miracle as a 9th level spell as Disjunction is banned, so I'll have spontaneous access to Miracles.
Minor dabbling in Animate Dead for meat shields.

I think the result will be a pretty satisfying cleric.

[hamishspence]

The "problematic" bit would be if the character doesn't want to become LE, but wants to stay LN. Wee Jas and her clergy may not care about alignment change- but if the character casts Good spells as well as Evil- they may not want to lose access to them (evil clerics cease to be able to cast Good spells).

Hence, the character may need to put a lot of work into "staying LN".

[Tokuhara]

Doc*sk, I second Contemplative levels and Divine Magician, but also want to add Sovereign Speaker. Sure, you lose a caster level, but in doing so, you get domains, and domains are your friend.

as stated before, cleric is tier 1, so just do what you enjoy doing.

Personally, I love being the "mage," using a Hellbred (Spirit) Cloistered Divine Magician (using the Spontaneous domain ACF) 7/Sovereign Speaker 9/Contemplative 2/Church Inquisitor 1/Divine Oracle 1

Here's what you get:

14 domains to choose from, all of which are spontaneous, which allows for a more "seat of your pants"-type casting

3 extra domain slots

Class Features that allow for a vairable pantheon of options