Does anyone know anything about sociopaths? I want to try to roleplay one

[randomhero00]

I have an idea for a character, a bard actually, that's a sociopath. He charms everyone he meets. Mirroring their personality. Rarely showing his own. That's about as far as I got in my research. The (hopefully) kicker will be near the end when the party figures out he's insane.

[Aharon]

I suggest American Psycho (The book, not the film). Despite possibly being conceived by the author as a caricature (it's an open question wether all that stuff happens or is just the protagonist's imagination), IMO, it gives a good overview of how a violent sociopath might act.

Also keep in mind that sociopathy's main characteristic is a lack of empathy - and by that measurement, lots of people ar sociopaths.

[randomhero00]

I suggest American Psycho (The book, not the film). Despite possibly being conceived by the author as a caricature (it's an open question wether all that stuff happens or is just the protagonist's imagination), IMO, it gives a good overview of how a violent sociopath might act.

Also keep in mind that sociopathy's main characteristic is a lack of empathy - and by that measurement, lots of people ar sociopaths.

Yeah but this character isn't supposed to be a serial killer. Just mentally effed, ya know? I'm not even sure what alignment would be. He doesn't actively kill for pleasure or anything. He just has no empathy and doesn't understand the need to feel for others. Which is really a subtle roleplay path.

[Keinnicht]

Yeah but this character isn't supposed to be a serial killer. Just mentally effed, ya know? I'm not even sure what alignment would be. He doesn't actively kill for pleasure or anything. He just has no empathy and doesn't understand the need to feel for others. Which is really a subtle roleplay path.

If you don't want him to be a serial killer, how is he going to be an adventurer?

[/joke]

[hamishspence]

An adventurer doesn't have to be a "serial killer" if they only kill in self-defence or on the instruction of local authorities. Though I get the joke.

"low/no empathy" can be played- maybe stress that the character doesn't understand certain drives others have.
They might be completely mystified by the concept of "caring for others as people" and see everything in terms of "Assets" and "Threats".

Count Dooku, in the Episode III novelization, was a bit like this.

[randomhero00]

I guess it would depend on the position the DM forces the party into. A nursery of babies is infected with a long lasting deadly plague. Do you kill them to stop it now or let them grow up, perhaps isolated, but still at risk in infecting others? The sociopath would be all for killing them instantly.

But that's something I'd have to rely on my DM producing. I'm trying to think of general roleplay quirks that I don't have to rely on a specific situation.

[Frozen_Feet]

Wikipedia on Psychopathy and Antisocial personality disorder.

A bit about charismatic psychopaths thriving at the top of the business world.

If looking for a fictional point of inspiration, try "Long" John Silver, from Treasure Island - he's a text-book psychopath. Seemingly affable, helpful to the protagonists when their goals meet, but ready to switch sides at the drop of a hat, a remorseless murderer and eloquent liar.

Curiously enough, it's implied in the book he had wife and kids, and was going to live happily ever after with them outside the reach of the law with his share of the treasure.

Of course, he might have been lying...

[Cristo Meyers]

"low/no empathy" can be played- maybe stress that the character doesn't understand certain drives others have.
They might be completely mystified by the concept of "caring for others as people" and see everything in terms of "Assets" and "Threats".

Count Dooku, in the Episode III novelization, was a bit like this.

This would definitely be close enough to work, since we're talking about a psychological condition here. Going really in depth into the hows and whys of sociopathy would probably only cause more problems.

The way you've described the character he would definitely be a complete user of people. They're no more than means to whatever end the character is after and he'd probably be completely incapable of grasping the fact that using these people like that is reprehensible.

[Mastikator]

I know a little about sociopath, I'm not a psychiatrist, but this is my hobby psychology knowledge:
Sociopaths are superficially charming, that part you have covered. They are also have zero capacity for empathy, they just don't care about other people. A sociopath can watch a baby get mutilated and not flinch, a sociopath can see his own family burn alive and not care.
Playing a sociopath is not a good idea since if you want to play it well you'll eventually have to betray your group the moment it benefits you.

Sociopaths tend to exhibit parasitic behavior, using other people then leaving them, and though most sociopaths aren't serial killers, they are pathological liars.
They are also very impulsive and lack long term goals. They also tend to be at average IQ or slightly above. And they understand human emotion, but not on an empathic level. So moderate or higher int, low wis, very high charisma.

Psychopathy is generally triggered by three things, the first is an abusive childhood, the second is a mental disorder or brain damage (can be caused by head trauma), the third is a gene that you need to have.

If you've read Dexter then you get a good description. If you've watched the show, but not read then know this, Dexter is way too meticulous and methodological, in the book he's very impulsive and sloppy.


I'd go with Chaotic Evil, with a capital on both letters, just because a sociopath doesn't compulsively and ritually murder people (which is what serial killers do), doesn't mean that murdering babies is out of the picture. But outwards he would seem like chaotic good (until a paladin shows up I guess).

[hamishspence]

I know a little about sociopath, I'm not a psychiatrist, but this is my hobby psychology knowledge:
Sociopaths are superficially charming, that part you have covered. They are also have zero capacity for empathy, they just don't care about other people. A sociopath can watch a baby get mutilated and not flinch, a sociopath can see his own family burn alive and not care.

Might be the most extreme end of the scale- and it may be a scale rather than a type. A character might exhibit "sociopathic tendencies" which might be amplified or reduced depending on the situation.

For example, character could be "more sociopathic" toward any group they can label "the enemy" yet still be capable of caring, to an extent, for their "in-group".

[randomhero00]

Yeah but even a sociopath can see his group as a useful tool. In games I've played there's never been a reason to betray them (except toward the very very end, i.e. epilogue).

edit: then who are the meticulous murderers we've heard about in society? They must be sociopaths obviously. So obviously some must be meticulous.

[Grelna the Blue]

Sociopathy is frequently conflated with several other disorders. I suggest using the attributes of Dissocial personality disorder, which is broad enough to to include sociopathy within it and defined well enough to be usable. I have seen players portray this disorder without even trying. To be sure, at least one of those players suffered from this disorder himself, so he could hardly help it.

Dissocial personality disorder is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

• Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
• Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations. (One aspect of this one I've seen is that they they often don't "get" law or morality on any basis other than reward/punishment)
• Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
• Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
• Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment (One way this can play out is, "I'm already wanted by the law for murder, so why not kill that guardsman?")
• Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
• Persistent irritability.

[arguskos]

I have a character who is a sociopath, but more in the "serial killer" direction of things. If you feel that my characterization of Zekharyah would be of value to you, I'd be happy to share. However, be warned, when I get deep in character, I get... deep in character. Ye be warned.

[hamishspence]

Dissocial personality disorder is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

if you pick the right 3 or 4:

• Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
• Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment
• Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
• Persistent irritability.

you can have a fairly "mild" sociopath, rather than the more violent kind.
Carl Denham from King Kong (maybe the Peter Jackson version?) is cited as CE in Complete Scoundrel- despite not being particularly violent- which might be a case of the milder type of Evil.

[FMArthur]

What you're asking for describes pretty much any evil adventurer who isn't of the "kill everything just for fun" variety. Really anyone who comes into a D&D game with an unabashed "gamer" attitude is going to be playing that way by default.

[Ytaker]

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders66.html

Sociopath case studies

http://toogoodtobereal.blogspot.com/...sociopath.html

The techniques a sociopath uses to charm people.

"According to Dr. Hare and Dr. Babiak, psychopaths are always on the lookout for individuals to scam or swindle. The psychopathic approach includes three phases: the assessment phase, the manipulation phase and the abandonment phase. "Some psychopaths are opportunistic, aggressive predators who wil take advantage of almost anyone they meet, while others are more patient, waiting for the perfect, innocent victim to cross their path. In each case, the psychopath is constantly sizing up the potential usefulness of an individual as a source of money, power, sex or influence".

The authors go on to say that some psychopaths enjoy a challenge while others prey on people who are vulnerable. This could include people who are lonely or people who need emotional support, elderly people or those who have been recently hurt or victimized. During the assessment phase, the psychopath is able to determine a potential victim's weak points and will use those weak points to seduce.

http://www.experienceproject.com/gro...ociopath/42740

Stories from socoiopaths.

I was woken up this week to what I might be by being told by some people after I proudly exclaimed about my week's current misdeeds that it's not normal to not care about right or wrong. I thought it through, the only reason I ever really do the "right" thing, is to get ahead in life, or to not be arrested, if there were no laws I'm sure I would have caused chaos, sheer ******* chaos by now.

[Telonius]

There's a range of behaviors that a sociopath can fall under. The "mirroring" thing is actually one way that some therapists use to help the higher-functioning ones "fit in" to normal society.

A sociopath doesn't have to be "insane" in the "raving lunatic" or even "heartless murderer" sense. It might just be that they're totally incapable of emotion. Bard would actually be a pretty interesting concept for that. He can play his instrument with such skill that it could bring tears to anyone's eyes but his own. His performance persona would be a total mask. If he ever lets anyone see behind it - if they ever see that he really doesn't care - his music would be forever ruined. The audience would feel like they've been played.

[Callista]

Yup, sociopaths are usually CE and always evil. If they cease to be Evil, they no longer qualify as sociopaths. They do not need to be killers; in fact, the vast majority aren't; they're simply people who care only about themselves, and that's the definition of evil. (There's more to it, of course. Go on and read a few books, do some research. It's actually pretty interesting.)

How chaotic your character is will be very significant. If he is very chaotic, then he'll be unable to inhibit his impulses to do antisocial things; and that would make him a bad character to play--you wouldn't get to play him for very long because the rest of the party would either ditch him or kill him. You'll want to play someone who is very nearly, or actually is, NE.

If you'll remember the way Belkar is learning how to play society's game--it's a lot like that. Belkar started out as strongly evil and strongly chaotic; now he's only moderately chaotic, and that's making it easier for him to live in society as an evil person. You'll want to do something like this. Give your character a decent Wisdom score that he can use to understand others, understand society, and think about things before he does them. What you want is not a thug who kills the first person who looks at him funny--you want a high-functioning sociopath who is willing to play the game, put on a good face, and charm people into thinking he is a nice guy in order to get what he wants.

But re-think the idea of this person being "insane" in the out-of-touch-with-reality way; they wouldn't be. There's no psychosis involved.

And of course, you should have a backup character so that if this goes wrong and the party kicks out or kills your PC, you can quickly bring in someone new and won't have to sit out while you make a new character.

[hamishspence]

they're simply people who care only about themselves, and that's the definition of evil. (There's more to it, of course. Go on and read a few books, do some research. It's actually pretty interesting.)

In a D&D sense, it's more the point where a person's alignment can't be anything other than evil.
It's possible to have an evil-aligned character who isn't a full-blown sociopath though- they'd probably have other traits to make them evil.

Like, behaving in a sociopathic fashion toward some people (who might be designated in their mind as "the enemy") rather than all people.

[AyeGill]

Bard would actually be a pretty interesting concept for that. He can play his instrument with such skill that it could bring tears to anyone's eyes but his own. His performance persona would be a total mask. If he ever lets anyone see behind it - if they ever see that he really doesn't care - his music would be forever ruined. The audience would feel like they've been played.

this.
i second.
+1

[Gnaeus]

Remember that in many historical societies, this behavior could be the norm, or even admirable. How it plays in your game may vary.

There was a recent documentary about a mob killer. He lived a normal life, had a wife and kids (of whom he was very protective), but if someone threatened his family or him, he cut them up and dumped them in a cave. He mentioned that he would torture them, solely for the purpose of making himself feel any emotion about their death.

[hamishspence]

Remember that in many historical societies, this behavior could be the norm, or even admirable. How it plays in your game may vary.

There was a recent documentary about a mob killer. He lived a normal life, had a wife and kids (of whom he was very protective), but if someone threatened his family or him, he cut them up and dumped them in a cave.

Hence the suggestion I made, that it was "sociopathic toward some people" rather than "sociopathic toward all people" that's a sign of Evil alignment.

To care about somebody- implies that the character is not totally sociopathic toward everyone- they have empathy- even if it's pretty narrow.

[Callista]

It's not necessary to be completely lacking in empathy to be a sociopath. In fact, many are very good at detecting others' emotions--they know exactly how you are feeling, the better to manipulate you.

[Ytaker]

It's not necessary to be completely lacking in empathy to be a sociopath. In fact, many are very good at detecting others' emotions--they know exactly how you are feeling, the better to manipulate you.

They don't feel the emotions though. That's one of the defining characteristics of sociopaths. If they felt your emotions they'd feel remorse when they did bad things because they'd feel your pain.

[WarKitty]

There's a range of behaviors that a sociopath can fall under. The "mirroring" thing is actually one way that some therapists use to help the higher-functioning ones "fit in" to normal society.

A sociopath doesn't have to be "insane" in the "raving lunatic" or even "heartless murderer" sense. It might just be that they're totally incapable of emotion. Bard would actually be a pretty interesting concept for that. He can play his instrument with such skill that it could bring tears to anyone's eyes but his own. His performance persona would be a total mask. If he ever lets anyone see behind it - if they ever see that he really doesn't care - his music would be forever ruined. The audience would feel like they've been played.

+2. He can charm his way out of anything. He can bring tears to the judge's eyes when he's on trial. He's an expert at getting people to see things the way he wants them to see things. But he himself doesn't feel anything.

[hamishspence]

It's not necessary to be completely lacking in empathy to be a sociopath. In fact, many are very good at detecting others' emotions--they know exactly how you are feeling, the better to manipulate you.

"Lacking in caring" then- a person can genuinely care about someone other than themselves (hence not being a "total sociopath") and still have other traits to qualify them as evil aligned.

Empathy in this context referred to actually being able to, say, dislike the sight of others suffering- emotionally or physically- because they can imagine themselves in the same position.

[Callista]

Right. Lacking in caring, not in understanding. Someone who doesn't read emotions well is merely socially clumsy or oblivious, not sociopathic--once they know what the other person is feeling, they'll likely care about it just as much as the people who've got a positive modifier to their Sense Motive checks. :)

[Lord.Sorasen]

A huge trap you could fall into with this character is to treat him as a character without emotions: those with antisocial disorder feel emotions themselves, which drive them to commit evil acts. Finding the emotion which fuels your character is important.

A big one, for instance, is fear of abandonment. It makes sense if you think about it: If you don't understand why people do what they do or feel how they feel, you'd probably be okay with manipulating them for your own gain. What's more, you'd consider those who didn't go along... You might use the word evil, but you'd probably see them more as neutral to be honest. A sociopath, for instance, might have a dog which keeps him company... But should the dog stop listening to him, or seem to stop loving him, there's a good chance he would kill it.

What I'm trying to say is a sociopath needs not only motive to act as they do, but an irrational trigger which could break the mask. For a bard, perhaps finding those who do not listen to his song. Or perhaps seeing the party "put him at risk". Remember he feels not for others, but he does feel for himself, and consider this second half as importantly as the first.

[Fox Box Socks]

I'm not a psychiatry student or buff, but I do watch a lot of television. So while I can't tell you a whole lot of clinical terms, I can tell you what your fellow players will be looking out for when they hear that you're playing a sociopath.

In the common parlance (as much as I can tell), psychopathy is generally defined by a lack of conscience. Maybe it you're born with it, maybe it develops from an abusive home, but it really doesn't matter. By the time they're adults, they have a great deal of difficulty understanding morality in general, specifically sympathy. Belkar's a great example: in the angel / devil conscience gag, his angel just plain isn't there. What is the "right" thing to do never factors into the equation. To a sociopath, all interactions with all external parties are about one thing: what will benefit me, personally, the most? Sometimes this means seducing them. Sometimes this means swindling them. Sometimes this means killing them. Depends on personal preferrance.

Of course, simply killing everyone you meet is a good way to get locked up, so crucial to long-term survival is the ability to fake it. Sociopaths tend to be wonderfully skilled liar and charmers, if only by necessity. The most narcissistic and cynical (two rather common traits) view those strange urges like "charity" and "compassion" that everyone else seems to have to be a weakness, so preying on those weaknesses is largely a social matter. When people see through their deceptions, however, is when things tend to get violent, as hair-trigger tempers are bread and butter.

Gaming as a sociopath while also being a team player is going to be...difficult. After all; the only reason you're associating with these people is because there's going to be a big payoff for you somewhere down the line; if there weren't, then you wouldn't be there. The second that the short term benefit of betraying your fellows outweighs the long term benefit of whatever, it would be hideously out of character for you to not to stab them in the back (possibly literally). Again, not a psychologist, but from my limited understanding simply growing a conscience is out of the question, so if you're going for authenticity with the condition, betrayal may be inevitable.

I don't know what system you're using, so I'm going to give suggestions based on what I know. For D&D, Intelligence and Charisma should be paramount. Be prepared to make a Bluff check every time you open your mouth. If you're playing 3.5, look at Rogue, Hexblade (lol Hexblade), Bard, and take a long hard look at Beguiler. If you're playing 4e, look at Artful Dodger Rogue, Thief, Illusionist Wizard, Fey Pact or Sorcerer-King Pact Warlock, Cunning Bard, and Resourceful Warlord. For World of Darkness, Finesse traits and Social Skills get most of the billing, but don't neglect Firearms or Weaponry. Try Circle of the Crone Daeva or Ventrue in VtR (Architects of the Monolith and Sotoha bloodlines are of special mention here. A Sotoha could make a frighteningly effective sociopath), Free Council Thrysus for MtAw, and Spring Court Fairest for CtL.

Read through all of World of Darkness: Slasher, regardless of what system you're using, especially the sections on Charmers and Geniuses. Also useful would be the Draugr section in The Wicked Dead, as it gives very good advice on how to both roleplay and run a character that is all vice and no virtue.

Hope this was helpful

[Trekkin]

Sociopaths, in my opinion, should act CE for TN reasons. They are, in a sense, extremely driven individuals, and could be roleplayed almost as computers in the sense that they look at individuals and see decision engines to be manipulated because that's how they think they work internally. They probably have a set of mental constructions intended to keep their options open when near others, having learned that actually acting in what they consider to be their best interest leads to negative reactions.

In short, restrict his world to a series of causal relationships free of overarching moral concerns.