How Does the Psychic Warrior Match Up against the ToB Classes?

[wayfare]

I'm joining a campaign where the ToB classes are played, as I was wondering how a psychic Warrior would match up against them. The party has a Crusader (and may be getting a swordsage). I was going to try to make a Psychic Warrior who focused on making his weapon deadlier, along with some personal buffs.

How would this compare to a swordsage or a warblade?

[Tyger]

From a purely "tier" perspective, the Psychic Warrior and the ToB classes are all likely in the Tier 3 range, which puts them around equal. They have some versatility and excel at what they chose to specialize in. In short, properly built, you should be just fine with a Psy Warrior in a ToB classed party.

[IcarusWings]

I'm pretty sure they're both about tier 3, so you should be fine. I'm not certain though, but I've never heard of anyone who knows what they're talking about ever say that either ToB or the PsiWar is unbalanced.

[Lateral]

Yeah, they're both tier 3. The only problem you may have, though, is that it's near-impossible to mess up a Warblade or Crusader, but the Psychic Warrior is much easier to build ineffectively by choosing the wrong powers, feats, etc.

[wayfare]

Thanks for the quick response!

Any build suggestions?

[FMArthur]

They're around the same power level. Sometimes a little weaker or stronger depending on the choices you or they make. I think Psychic Warriors are a little easier to mess up though, so they're not at the same level of ease-of-use. There are a lot of bad feats to fill your bonus feats and a fair amount of bad powers to waste your powers known and PP on. It's good that you're focusing on buffs, since ToB really does not, but take care to watch your action economy when building the character - my first Psywar sounded great with all the buffs I could stack together, but in actual play he was the janitor for mop-up after most of the fight was over because of the amount of time he wasted.

[Godskook]

Tier-wise, they're all tier 3.

Role-wise, a psychic warrior is more glass-cannon than the crusader and more front-line than the swordsage. None of you fulfill the 'skillmonkey' party role, though, so the group as a whole is going to suffer there, unless you got other party members.

[Telok]

I've played both warblade and psiwar and they are pretty equal to me.

PsiWar has a bot more nova potential perhaps, or durability if you build for that. You'll probably PrC out into the psychic slayer or something, but you don't have to do so to stay relevant. Warblade might have a slight edge in resource allocation and endurance and won't need to PrC unless you see something you really like.

For fun, they combine really well.

All this is assuming no overt cheese and just taking good picks from the powers/maneuvers.

[wayfare]

They're around the same power level. Sometimes a little weaker or stronger depending on the choices you or they make. I think Psychic Warriors are a little easier to mess up though, so they're not at the same level of ease-of-use. There are a lot of bad feats to fill your bonus feats and a fair amount of bad powers to waste your powers known and PP on. It's good that you're focusing on buffs, since ToB really does not, but take care to watch your action economy when building the character - my first Psywar sounded great with all the buffs I could stack together, but in actual play he was the janitor for mop-up after most of the fight was over because of the amount of time he wasted.

Anything in particular I should avoid?

[Emmerask]

Tier-wise, they're all tier 3.

Role-wise, a psychic warrior is more glass-cannon than the crusader and more front-line than the swordsage. None of you fulfill the 'skillmonkey' party role, though, so the group as a whole is going to suffer there, unless you got other party members.

A human swordsage is a pretty good skillmonkey 6+ int +1 skillpoints and a good skill-list

[FMArthur]

Anything in particular I should avoid?

I'm sorry, it's actually been a long time since I've made any Psychic Warriors. I make Ardents to fill the same role these days, since I have to make so many characters as a DM and they are easier to make.

To be honest, you might prefer to build an Ardent than a Psychic Warrior anyway. Instead of bonus feats they have psion-level PP (Psychic Warrior's low power points will be constantly limiting), they get higher-level powers faster, and they choose whole packages of powers at a time that are thematically categorized. So they are much, much easier to build as a result while still having Psychic Warrior's BAB, acquiring most of the good Psychic Warrior powers at a faster rate to use more often than Psywars, and get a fair bit of decent Psion powers as well.

They have slightly poorer hit dice and weak Fortitude saves, but don't be put-off by that; there are so many ways for them to drastically improve their durability that they are better tanks than Psychic Warriors for their power selection and PP pool.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In my mind, there are two types of psychic warriors

Natural attack based: using powers such as claws of the beast, jaws of the wolf, form of doom, etc. To become a clawed tencacled nightmare (see king of smack)

The other are the one that uses more normal buffs (expansion, strength of my enemy and the like) for this types I would use the soulbound wapon acf found in the mind's eye articles (google it, I don't have the link handy atm) which trades your first two feats (level 1 & 2) for a magic weapon that scales better than the soul knife (yes, an entire class replaced by an ACF).

If you go either way, there are two powers crucial to any psy-war imo those being psionics lion charge (who doesn't love pounce and bonus damage?) And hustle (extra movement is nice for many things).

Also get linked power metapsionic (CPsi) to take care of your action economy problems.

[Person_Man]

Generic Psychic Warrior Builds:

• King of Smack: Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Karmic Strike + anything that increases your actual or effective size. It's not that hard to get your Claws of the Beast damage up to 12d6ish territory. Claws of the Vampire heals 50% of the base damage done by your claws. Karmic Strike (and/or Robilar's Gambit, if you're playing a high level game) gives you a free attack whenever an enemy hits or attacks you. Find a way to dump your AC (like Shock Trooper) and have fun. Just be sure to protect yourself against ranged attacks, and maybe take Fearless Destiny (Races of Destiny) or something similar in case you miss a lot.
• Tashalatora: Similar to the King, this uses Monk 1-2/Psychic Warrior X with the tashalatora feat (Secrets of Sarlona) and anything that increases actual/effective size to get ridiculous Unarmed Damage. Lacks the healing power of the King, but generally gets better overall damage and Skills. Also tends to be the preferred route for most Grapple builds.
• Zen Archer: The Zen Archery feat (Complete Warrior) shifts your To-Hit from Dex to Wis for bows. Hustle grants you free move actions, which negates the need for Manyshot. This gives you decent ranged damage per round for minimal investment.
• Sir Wisdom the SAD: Basically everything (AC, hit points, to-hit, etc) can be determined by Wisdom for a Psychic Warrior, if you know where to look.
• Tiny But Deadly: The opposite of the King of Smack - this build gets very small and uses tricks like Iajutsu Focus, Confound the Big Folk, Underfoot Combat, Goad, etc, to move into enemy squares and kill them. Generally works better for the Psychic Rogue or Factotum though.

There are dozens of other options. Just look at the best psionic powers (and don't forget Expanded Knowledge) and imagine what you could do to exploit and have fun with them.

[Emmerask]

There are some pretty nice ACF´s you might want to consider building one.

Mantled Warrior
Skilled City Dweller
Soulbound Weapon

[Godskook]

A human swordsage is a pretty good skillmonkey 6+ int +1 skillpoints and a good skill-list

The swordsage:
1.Can't trapfind (No search, trapfinding or disable device)
2.Can't supterfuge (No forgery, open lock, sleight of hand or bluff)
3.Can barely scout (no spot, but has listen, hide and move silently)
4.Can't play party face (no 'nice' Cha-based skills)
5.No UMD/UPD, which is nice for someone in the party to have.
6.Gather information is notably missing too.
7.Can't be a knowledge-monkey

Of those, the Crusader can fulfill the party face role in a pinch, but a pity he doesn't have more of them. And at 2+int, the psychic warrior isn't going to be helping much, if at all.

Sure, if the party has more than 3 PCs, the swordsage can supplement as a secondary skillmonkey quite well, but he's *VERY* lackluster as a primary skillmonkey.

[Psyren]

A Psychic Warrior can take anything in ToB to the mat, imo. Let's see a Warblade generate contact poison out of pure ectoplasm at low levels (4) and coat his weapon and all his arrows in it. Or a Crusader become Large/Huge/Gargantuan depending on starting size and level, then extend its reach even further to trip every bad guy in the room. Or a Swordsage and its pet rock transform into a pair of hydras. Or just go for the simple expedient of gaining a huge buffer of temp HP, cutting all damage you take in half, granting yourself concealment and buffing your AC and all your saving throws.

Where the ToB classes have the advantage is staying power, because Psywars are preciously short on juice. There are several cheesy yet RAW ways around this as well, however.

[nyarlathotep]

Another good choice is the mantled warrior ACF from minds eye. You give up one or two bonus feats for access to one or two ardent mantles (not sure on the number for either). This gives you powers normally unavailable to psy warriors.

[Psyren]

Another good choice is the mantled warrior ACF from minds eye. You give up one or two bonus feats for access to one or two ardent mantles (not sure on the number for either). This gives you powers normally unavailable to psy warriors.

You give up one bonus feat for one mantle and its granted ability (equivalent to two feats.) The Psywar ACFs are very good.

Not only do you get access to powers outside your list, you get access to them sooner than you could with Expanded Knowledge. For instance, you can learn Metamorphosis from EK at level 13; you can get it from the Natural World mantle instead at level 10.

In addition, gaining that first mantle qualifies you for the Don Mantle and Tap Mantle feats to acquire more. Tap gives powers and Don gives the ability; Natural World is a great one to just Tap since its granted ability is weak but its powers are good.

[JKTrickster]

Also just see here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162701

[Psyren]

Also just see here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162701

I find it odd he downgrades Psicrystals to "orange" for psywars if their ability to gain feats is disallowed. Power sharing (especially Vigor+Share Pain and/or Metamorphosis), seeing/hearing through magical darkness/silence, and the Personality skill bonuses get them to at least green in my opinion.

Nevertheless, thanks, I'd misplaced that link

[Eldariel]

A human swordsage is a pretty good skillmonkey 6+ int +1 skillpoints and a good skill-list

And a small Rogue-or-Factotum (depending on stats) dip to expand the skill list a bit with Able Learner has you covered, and is far from terrible regardless of what you're doing. Swordsage is a fine primary skill monkey.


And yeah, they're the same power level approximately. Psy War probably has a higher ceiling thanks to Metamorphosis and Schism, but also lower bottom of course. Psy War is also a bit tricky with regards to power points. So...yeah, long as you "know" what you're doing, you should be ok on Psy War. You do need to know, though.

[Ernir]

Yeah, they're both tier 3. The only problem you may have, though, is that it's near-impossible to mess up a Warblade or Crusader, but the Psychic Warrior is much easier to build ineffectively by choosing the wrong powers, feats, etc.

A Psychic Warrior can take anything in ToB to the mat, imo. Let's see a Warblade generate contact poison out of pure ectoplasm at low levels (4) and coat his weapon and all his arrows in it. Or a Crusader become Large/Huge/Gargantuan depending on starting size and level, then extend its reach even further to trip every bad guy in the room. Or a Swordsage and its pet rock transform into a pair of hydras. Or just go for the simple expedient of gaining a huge buffer of temp HP, cutting all damage you take in half, granting yourself concealment and buffing your AC and all your saving throws.

Where the ToB classes have the advantage is staying power, because Psywars are preciously short on juice. There are several cheesy yet RAW ways around this as well, however.

I would combine the points made in these two posts. The meaning: the PsyWar has a broader optimization range.

[Godskook]

And a small Rogue-or-Factotum (depending on stats) dip to expand the skill list a bit with Able Learner has you covered, and is far from terrible regardless of what you're doing. Swordsage is a fine primary skill monkey.

Except the majority of the skillmonkey-ness is coming from the dip+feat, not the swordsage, in your example. A vanilla swordsage? Not so much.

[Emmerask]

The swordsage:
1.Can't trapfind (No search, trapfinding or disable device)

Agreed, though this is true for almost any pc without trapfinding (most traps have a dc of >20 making search checks irrelevant without)

2.Can't supterfuge (No forgery, open lock, sleight of hand or bluff)

True but if you adapt your playstyle you can instead use other skills to achieve a similar goal ie sense motive and intimidate

5.No UMD/UPD, which is nice for someone in the party to have.

cross class + masterwork umd item is in most cases enough to achieve the goal

7.Can't be a knowledge-monkey

This is where I disagree, Knowledge local, knowledge history and knowledge nobility and royalty are a very strong foundation especially history can substitute for a very wide variety of knowledge skills
Knowledge Nature has its uses too, but that depends on the setting.
Yes you are missing the two big ones religion and arcana but those are in most groups the skills the casters learn anyway.

Then we have skills like astronomy, mathematics, engineering, dungeoneering etc which are very rarely used nearly no one puts that many points into them anyway (except for prc reqs)... put a few cross class points into that buy a masterwork tool and it should be enough (a masterwork star chart for example)

Btw is the X6 at first level a print-error, I would think so?

[Greenish]

Btw is the X6 at first level a print-error, I would think so?

If they didn't mean it, they would have fixed it in the errata.

Oh wait…

[Godskook]

Agreed, though this is true for almost any pc without trapfinding (most traps have a dc of >20 making search checks irrelevant without)

And it is a *KEY* skillmonkey skillset. Skillmonkeys that don't have it get made fun of.

True but if you adapt your playstyle you can instead use other skills to achieve a similar goal ie sense motive and intimidate

Sense Motive can be handy sometimes, but Intimidate is about as subtle as a crowbar(sometimes literally!).

cross class + masterwork umd item is in most cases enough to achieve the goal

Its a DC 20 check to use a wand, and that's about the easiest it gets, and with UMD, you *MUST* roll, so to ensure that you always pass, you need a +19 on the roll. You're going to need more than cross-class ranks and a MWK tool to get that kind of bonus(cross-class max ranks at level 20 is *still* only 11).

This is where I disagree, Knowledge local, knowledge history and knowledge nobility and royalty are a very strong foundation especially history can substitute for a very wide variety of knowledge skills
Knowledge Nature has its uses too, but that depends on the setting.
Yes you are missing the two big ones religion and arcana but those are in most groups the skills the casters learn anyway.

Missing 6/10 of the set, and more importantly, 4/6 of the creature-identifier set, is fairly fatal to being able to fulfill the role competently.

Regardless, you seem to be missing my primary point, which is that in a party with just a crusader, swordsage, and psychic warrior, the swordsage can't fulfill the primary skillmonkey role. Sure, he can help, but he's second rate, at best.

Btw is the X6 at first level a print-error, I would think so?

Print-error indeed.

[dobu]

you could check out the psy warrior handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162701