[4e] The Pun-Punished

[Christopher K.]

Inspired by the antics of a certain invincible Kobold wizard, this is an adventure idea I thought my group might enjoy.

Eons ago, before the formation of the world we live in, before our gods took the forms we now know them in, there was a particularly clever Kobold. Nobody alive is quite sure how it came to be, but he managed to surpass the gods in power and transcend the physical laws of his universe.

Time has passed, and that Kobold may yet live on, but it is against his will. Trapped by the very power he drew from the universe around him, he now seeks to undo the damage he has done with the aid of a new generation of heroes.

What sort of encounters and puzzles would you expect from an adventure to help destroy Pun-Pun(assuming he couldn't merely will himself to cease to exist)

[TalonDemonKing]

Acsension to power, in reverse.

Eventually strip away every step he took until hes nothing but a kobold, then kill him.

[Greenish]

Traditionally, it's kobold paladin. A wiz/sorc of any race can also do it.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I feel like this could be tied into the 3.5 --> 4e edition change somehow, if you wanted to Magic Missile the fourth wall.

[Anxe]

I believe the traditional way to destroy Pun-Pun is to use his equally powered familiar against him.

[AtomicKitKat]

Un-write Pazuzu from the universe, or failing(due to him being a "required" portion of the multi-verse) which you step back in time, warn him of the consequences, and he subsequently mulches any Kobold who asks for that boon(note, as a Demon, he is NOT contractually bound to grant Wishes just because he says "Ask for a Wish, and I'll grant it", unlike a Devil).

[Urpriest]

I'd have them have to go inspire the Omniscificer. They have to go through a time portal into a magical, 3.5-oid world, where they have to convince a masochistic artificer to drown himself while strong-arming some hirelings to help him.

[Christopher K.]

Acsension to power, in reverse.

Eventually strip away every step he took until hes nothing but a kobold, then kill him.

Except that in 4e, several relevant elements to Pun-Pun's ascension are missing or undefined.

Traditionally, it's kobold paladin. A wiz/sorc of any race can also do it.

The first version I ever head of was Kobold Wizard.

I feel like this could be tied into the 3.5 --> 4e edition change somehow, if you wanted to Magic Missile the fourth wall.

Pun-Pun was going to make some comments about how there were things he liked and didn't like about the ever-changing universe around him.

I believe the traditional way to destroy Pun-Pun is to use his equally powered familiar against him.

I was wondering, actually, if it'd be possible to make his familiar a feasible villain in this quest somehow.

Un-write Pazuzu from the universe, or failing(due to him being a "required" portion of the multi-verse) which you step back in time, warn him of the consequences, and he subsequently mulches any Kobold who asks for that boon(note, as a Demon, he is NOT contractually bound to grant Wishes just because he says "Ask for a Wish, and I'll grant it", unlike a Devil).

That might be doable; I've never run a god-slaying campaign before, so I don't know how, but I'd assume there are some stats somewhere that would contain the relevant information?

As for warning him, how believable is it from Pazuzu's perspective that strangers from a future game system appear to stop a Kobold from getting a single Candle of Invocation?

[MeeposFire]

The original was a wizard though it has gone through many changes over time.

[Elfin]

Except that in 4e, several relevant elements to Pun-Pun's ascension are missing or undefined.

That's because, obviously, the heroes changed the past so that those elements never existed, and thus are in a world where Pun-Pun does not exist and cannot contact them.

Time travel makes my head hurt.

I was wondering, actually, if it'd be possible to make his familiar a feasible villain in this quest somehow.

I like this! Pun-Pun wants to nobly sacrifice himself; his familiar is going to hold on to power at all costs.

[DragonBaneDM]

Hm... Well Pazuzu is only fitting as the BBEG, so pick up a copy of the Demononicon if you haven't yet.

It would probably have them fighting demons a lot, actually. They'd probably make first contact with Pun Pun in Paragon Tier, so up till then it'd just be your standard DnD game, riddled with clues and stories of PP's power, ascension, and deeds.

[NichG]

The ascended kobold, after a few moments giddy with the thrill of arbitrarily high levels of power, looked out over the multiverse and regarded its beauty. Yet at the border of his senses, a limit that should not exist, he beheld a wall. And just for a moment, his portfolio sense told him of a threat to himself. He came to know the truth of the universe. He knew that he had come into existence due to the thoughts and theories of mysterious beings from beyond that controlled all actions within the cosmos. These were the Lawyers, those who made and determined the outcome of the laws of all reality.

And so he came to know that his existence hung by a thread. For he stood at the cusp of impossibility - all life in the multiverse could only exist so long as those from beyond could calculate the results of the actions within. He had stopped short of true infinity, and none stood against him to test an immovable object against unstoppable force, yet his arbitrarily high mental powers led him to realize the possibility of another, a great knower of all things, one who could break the bonds of mere arbitrarily high power and touch the infinite. If two such beings were ever to clash...

And so he engineered the Change. He used his powers to write any ability into existence to start changing what abilities actually existed. And thus he crafted a universe without infinite ascension, without the tricks that had made him possible.

Yet with this change, he knew his own powers still posed a threat to all things, for just as he wrote the new rules, so did he remain as a fragment of that which was, a link to a past in which infinities were possible. And thus he knew that he must die a complete and thorough death for the multiverse to truly be safe. Yet with the changes made, he could no longer simply give himself the ability to die in such a way. He needed to be killed.

The rules he had made placed a certain handful of beings above all others, made them special, capable of doing whatever needed to be done if they were sufficiently clever. Thus were the PCs given their ultimate quest.

[Greenish]

The first version I ever head of was Kobold Wizard.

First (or so I seem to recall) 1st level Pun-Pun was a paladin for using Pazuzu.

The wizard version doesn't need Pazuzu's help.

[2xMachina]

Chain gating is fun *gets hit by DMG*

[DragonBaneDM]

The ascended kobold, after a few moments giddy with the thrill of arbitrarily high levels of power, looked out over the multiverse and regarded its beauty. Yet at the border of his senses, a limit that should not exist, he beheld a wall. And just for a moment, his portfolio sense told him of a threat to himself. He came to know the truth of the universe. He knew that he had come into existence due to the thoughts and theories of mysterious beings from beyond that controlled all actions within the cosmos. These were the Lawyers, those who made and determined the outcome of the laws of all reality.

And so he came to know that his existence hung by a thread. For he stood at the cusp of impossibility - all life in the multiverse could only exist so long as those from beyond could calculate the results of the actions within. He had stopped short of true infinity, and none stood against him to test an immovable object against unstoppable force, yet his arbitrarily high mental powers led him to realize the possibility of another, a great knower of all things, one who could break the bonds of mere arbitrarily high power and touch the infinite. If two such beings were ever to clash...

And so he engineered the Change. He used his powers to write any ability into existence to start changing what abilities actually existed. And thus he crafted a universe without infinite ascension, without the tricks that had made him possible.

Yet with this change, he knew his own powers still posed a threat to all things, for just as he wrote the new rules, so did he remain as a fragment of that which was, a link to a past in which infinities were possible. And thus he knew that he must die a complete and thorough death for the multiverse to truly be safe. Yet with the changes made, he could no longer simply give himself the ability to die in such a way. He needed to be killed.

The rules he had made placed a certain handful of beings above all others, made them special, capable of doing whatever needed to be done if they were sufficiently clever. Thus were the PCs given their ultimate quest.

This. You're doing this.

[AtomicKitKat]

That might be doable; I've never run a god-slaying campaign before, so I don't know how, but I'd assume there are some stats somewhere that would contain the relevant information?

As for warning him, how believable is it from Pazuzu's perspective that strangers from a future game system appear to stop a Kobold from getting a single Candle of Invocation?

It's not about the Candle of Invocation. It's about Pazuzu getting advanced warning about the dangers of granting "I Wish to become a Sarrukh." or whatever the Wish was that allowed the 1st level version to exist. He can continue to grant Wishes to Lawful Good(something about him only wanting to pervert the absolute lawfullest goodie towards the most chaotic evil) Kobolds all day. Just not that Wish.

[Tiki Snakes]

It's not about the Candle of Invocation. It's about Pazuzu getting advanced warning about the dangers of granting "I Wish to become a Sarrukh." or whatever the Wish was that allowed the 1st level version to exist. He can continue to grant Wishes to Lawful Good(something about him only wanting to pervert the absolute lawfullest goodie towards the most chaotic evil) Kobolds all day. Just not that Wish.

All Pun-pun asks for from Pazuzu is a candle of invocation. Pun pun then uses the candle to get any following wishes, so yes. It is about the candle of invocation, really. I'm pretty sure no version of Pun pun asks Pazuzu to turn him into a Sarrukh.

Perhaps a time-travelling plot to destroy the man who invented the Candles, or to convince the assembled gods at the dawn of time 'wish' magic is a very bad idea, might be a better route.

Pun pun would at least have to be a mid-level psion, after that. :)

[2xMachina]

No. Really. Just a Candle, and you start a Chain Gate.

Heck, as far as anyone cares, a Kobold could lvl up, and spend his GP on a candle, and he becomes Pun Pun.

You need to nuke all Sarruhks or, ALL ways to gate in things.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

Anyway, the important part of Pun Pun is
Gate in a Sarruhk and make it use his Manipulate Form ability.

How you gate one in, is not the point. Pazuzu only makes it easier.

[Greenish]

You need to nuke all Sarruhks or, ALL ways to gate in things.

Nuking Sarrukhs isn't a bad idea anyhow, it's not like any race that counts would miss them.

Also, exercising tight population control on Candles of Invocation is recommended.

[2xMachina]

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It's just there are 2 options, and they are not easy. (Nevermind the time travel problem)

You'd not be able to lock down all calling effects, so you've to go the Sarrukh Genocide way

[Christopher K.]

That's because, obviously, the heroes changed the past so that those elements never existed, and thus are in a world where Pun-Pun does not exist and cannot contact them.

Time travel makes my head hurt.

I like this! Pun-Pun wants to nobly sacrifice himself; his familiar is going to hold on to power at all costs.

Time travel is worse than the trippy sorcerer curse I came up with in the last campaign that made it to epic tier. (The z and alpha axes were switched in a single locale, so within the confines of the curse, a cross section of the village projected forward showing all its major changes until the end of time, and that cross section moved forward to show different parts of the village in a loop). Though if I remember correctly, time travel was actually the solution by creating a paradox and summoning some evil god from the Far Realm.

Yeah, I figured that Pun-Pun in this story would be willing to give up all his power in exchange for restoring balance to the universe, but his familiar (was it ever named?) wants to keep all its power.

Hm... Well Pazuzu is only fitting as the BBEG, so pick up a copy of the Demononicon if you haven't yet.

It would probably have them fighting demons a lot, actually. They'd probably make first contact with Pun Pun in Paragon Tier, so up till then it'd just be your standard DnD game, riddled with clues and stories of PP's power, ascension, and deeds.

I found my copy of Demonomicon, but wouldn't Pun-Pun's snake make for a more interesting BBEG?

<Epic awesome!>

So Pun-Pun made 4e to ensure fairness? Interesting concept.

First (or so I seem to recall) 1st level Pun-Pun was a paladin for using Pazuzu.

The wizard version doesn't need Pazuzu's help.

I remember the wizard version having some dialogue with Pazuzu.

Chain gating is fun *gets hit by DMG*

*lifts up a sharpened PHB* There's more where that came from.

It's not about the Candle of Invocation. It's about Pazuzu getting advanced warning about the dangers of granting "I Wish to become a Sarrukh." or whatever the Wish was that allowed the 1st level version to exist. He can continue to grant Wishes to Lawful Good(something about him only wanting to pervert the absolute lawfullest goodie towards the most chaotic evil) Kobolds all day. Just not that Wish.

The wish was for the Candle.

All Pun-pun asks for from Pazuzu is a candle of invocation. Pun pun then uses the candle to get any following wishes, so yes. It is about the candle of invocation, really. I'm pretty sure no version of Pun pun asks Pazuzu to turn him into a Sarrukh.

Perhaps a time-travelling plot to destroy the man who invented the Candles, or to convince the assembled gods at the dawn of time 'wish' magic is a very bad idea, might be a better route.

Pun pun would at least have to be a mid-level psion, after that. :)

Hrm.. That'd explain the absence of 'wish' in 4e.

No. Really. Just a Candle, and you start a Chain Gate.

Heck, as far as anyone cares, a Kobold could lvl up, and spend his GP on a candle, and he becomes Pun Pun.

You need to nuke all Sarruhks or, ALL ways to gate in things.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

Anyway, the important part of Pun Pun is
Gate in a Sarruhk and make it use his Manipulate Form ability.

How you gate one in, is not the point. Pazuzu only makes it easier.

Nuking Sarrukhs isn't a bad idea anyhow, it's not like any race that counts would miss them.

Also, exercising tight population control on Candles of Invocation is recommended.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It's just there are 2 options, and they are not easy. (Nevermind the time travel problem)

You'd not be able to lock down all calling effects, so you've to go the Sarrukh Genocide way

Quest to make a Scroll of Genocide?

[AtomicKitKat]

Oh, the Wish was for the candle. That makes a bit more sense. In that case, warn Pazuzu to keep tabs on any and all Candle of Invocation Wishers. And then smite any Sarrukh that is Called.

[MeeposFire]

Not that it matters

"Ascension is now achievable (and has been for years... sorry) at level 1. All you need is the will and the know-how. Here's how:

1. Make sure that your alignment is not CE. LG would work best. You want to benefit the multiverse and there is no better way to do that than for it to be like puddy in your hands.
2. You need a Knowledge check of 25 to know that you can summon Pazazu like Beetlejuice. As a Psion with a Sage Psicrystal, an 18 Intelligence, the Skill Focus feat, four ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) and a masterwork item of relevance (say a book), you can take 10 to get 25. It's ok that you got bullied as a child for your narrow focus and strange fascination in all things relating to the planes. It will pay off in the end.
3. Summon Pazuzu by calling out his name three times. He'll appear and be like "Yo! What the hell?!?! What do you want Mor-tal? Power? I can give it!" You'll look all calm and not impressed and be like "I'd prefer a Lawful Evil aligned Candle of Invocation". "There is a price!" the demon lord will scream. "You must go closer to EV-ILL!!!" "Ok" you will say. "I shall be Neutral Good from now on." Pazuzu shouts "If you're going to stick with the one shift limit I would greatly prefer that you shifted to Lawful Neutral over Neutral Good!!!" You will look as if this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave, then say "You're a real ballbuster but we have a deal."

Now you have your candle.
4. Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5.
5. Use the Candle to Gate in a Sarruhk. Command him to grant you Manipulate Form through the use of Manipulate Form.

Ascend.

*** What follows is the older method of ascension ***

Pun-Pun, Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3 Divine Minion 1. Wizard 1."

This is from Khan's thread on Pun-Pun. As can be seen Pun-pun started off as a wizard build. The Pazuzu thing was a way to start at level 1.

Here is the thread http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...er._EVER.?pg=1

[Master_Rahl22]

I love NichG's write up. You have to pitch it to your players that way. Also, I like the idea of homebrewing up a Sarrukh for 4E (assuming they're not somewhere in the FRCS or something already) and having the players quest be to wipe them all out. If you really want to be meta, you can have them quest to find obscure things no-one has ever heard of ("Candle of Invo-whatsis? Pazuzu-who? Wish? What in tarnation are you talking about?") . I also like the idea of Pun-pun's familiar as BBEG.

[Prime32]

On the familiar as BBEG: Remember that it has an NI Charisma score. Charisma determines your force of personality, and can be used to make Bluff checks that can counter Pun-Pun's NI Sense Motive.

IIRC for the trick to work Pun-Pun's familiar needs to be a snake. Symbolism!

[AtomicKitKat]

Ok. Time for my boy Paz to smite any Efreetis called as well. Seriously though, if you're Ao or any other overdeity, just smite any Sarrukhs called(fairly sure Overdeities exist in all planes except Genesised ones simultaneously).

[Christopher K.]

Oh, the Wish was for the candle. That makes a bit more sense. In that case, warn Pazuzu to keep tabs on any and all Candle of Invocation Wishers. And then smite any Sarrukh that is Called.

An anti-Sarrukh campaign seems to be the most likely route. Is there any way to implement time travel in existing 4e mechanics? I remember there was a suggested campaign involving time travel, but I can't remember what book it was in or what the specifics were.

I love NichG's write up. You have to pitch it to your players that way. Also, I like the idea of homebrewing up a Sarrukh for 4E (assuming they're not somewhere in the FRCS or something already) and having the players quest be to wipe them all out. If you really want to be meta, you can have them quest to find obscure things no-one has ever heard of ("Candle of Invo-whatsis? Pazuzu-who? Wish? What in tarnation are you talking about?") . I also like the idea of Pun-pun's familiar as BBEG.

Pazuzu-who sounds like a fun little kids' show. I'm going to definitely have to homebrew the Sarrukh, as it didn't show up in my combover of the Compendium. I'm thinking at some point or another, a major premade plot point in 4e may need to be implemented. For some reason I can envision Pun-Pun eating the Seed of the Abyss.

On the familiar as BBEG: Remember that it has an NI Charisma score. Charisma determines your force of personality, and can be used to make Bluff checks that can counter Pun-Pun's NI Sense Motive.

IIRC for the trick to work Pun-Pun's familiar needs to be a snake. Symbolism!

It'd be wrong for me to say that the snake has *puts on shades* unfamiliar motives.

..yeah.

Ok. Time for my boy Paz to smite any Efreetis called as well. Seriously though, if you're Ao or any other overdeity, just smite any Sarrukhs called(fairly sure Overdeities exist in all planes except Genesised ones simultaneously).

One of my original ideas for the campaign was actually to involve all gods not incapacitated(And possibly ones who should best be left alone) forming some sort of divine siphon to disperse Pun-Pun's excess energy across the universe. Another fun one was seeking an audience with the Raven Queen to put in a formal request for Pun-Pun to die, only to find out that the gods were completely unaware of him.

[Mando Knight]

Is there any way to implement time travel in existing 4e mechanics?

Is there a way to implement time travel in 3.5's mechanics? No. Unless you're going to have tactical time travel (an absolute nightmare), it only needs to be a plot point. Give them a DeLorean or a blue police box or a ritual or whatever, you don't need to worry about the mechanics of it, regardless of game system.

[NichG]

Psions can do it in 3.5, thanks to unclear/poor wording of Time Regression. It burns a lot of XP, but if you had an external source of XP or power points you could probably take advantage of the fact that you're going back to before they were spent and then just loop it. You might have to set up a facility where there's a thought bottle just sitting and waiting to be used this way for the span of time you plan to travel back. Or you arrange for a way to use this without the XP cost - an epic feat perhaps?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/po...Regression.htm

[The Glyphstone]

Is there a way to implement time travel in 3.5's mechanics? No. Unless you're going to have tactical time travel (an absolute nightmare), it only needs to be a plot point. Give them a DeLorean or a blue police box or a ritual or whatever, you don't need to worry about the mechanics of it, regardless of game system.

I know there was at least one Dragon Magazine with time-travel magic in it, and I think Teleport Through Time is available on the Wizard's website somewhere.