Cats should be extinct [3.5]

[SilverLeaf167]

Does anybody know how the Monster Manual cat can even survive in nature? All of its attacks deal negative damage... (1d2-4, 1d3-1)
And why does everyone make jokes about cats killing commoners?

[hamishspence]

Minimum damage an attack can inflict is 1 point.

Since a cat has a high AC, and multiple attacks- it can shred a commoner in fairly short order.

[SilverLeaf167]

Oh, right. I forgot that thing about minimum damage thing :P
I guess that's enough to kill a rat with single hit...

[Yora]

And cats can full attack for 3 attacks per round.

[ZeroNumerous]

And, of course, cats have high enough Hide and Move Silently to always get a surprise round.

[Ducklord]

They don't get pounce, do they? Otherwise they'd really be nasty.

[Coidzor]

They don't get pounce, do they? Otherwise they'd really be nasty.

No, they don't, but they probably should, to continue in the vein of feline type creatures.

Also, compare the cat against its prey, the raven(taken as fairly representative of such small birds and songbirds) and the rat.

The raven has a spot and listen of +7, and +5, which opposes the cat's +16 to hide(either 12 normally or 20 in tall grass, I'm not sure which) and +8 to move silently, where the advantage in hunting the raven is to the cat, despite them having similar armor classes, the cat has multiple attacks to counterbalance this while the raven has one. And the raven has a minus -1 to its grapple relative to that of the cat.

The rat, on the other hand, is actually better at moving silently than the cat, though in general, their behavior would lead to the rat avoiding the cat rather than attempting to ambush it. With it's +16 to hide and +10 to move silently, the rat is quite difficult for the cat's +3 to listen and spot to detect when the rat is hiding and moving silently. Similarly though, the rat is effectively blind to the cat as well, with it having a +1 to spot and listen. A game of cat and mouse, if you will.

Though, since it's in the same size category as the cat, this is still a very large rat. A mouse would be diminutive, though I'm not sure what the usual size of wild rats is, and thus having a higher AC and being even harder for the cat to find when it hides and moves silently... IIRC, ships' rats are the ones that are supposed to have gotten as big as cats and terriers. So I'm not sure how representative they are of the creatures that cats would call prey, considering adventurers can kill them for XP without them being a swarm.

[Asheram]

Now wasn't it a bit 50-50... or was it 75-25... that a cat could kill a commoner?

[SilverLeaf167]

No, they don't have pounce, but they probably should, to continue in the vein of feline type creatures.

Housecats really rarely make "full attacks" after pouncing, unlike lions do. They might cause a scratch or two, but they come from trying to hold the prey in place. The bite is the thing that kills the prey. They only start using their claws if the initial attack doesn't do the job.

[Yora]

When you have the suprise round, you don't need to pounce. Run to the target as your suprise round action. Then win initiative and begin the first combat round with a full attack.

[hamishspence]

Cats are also not the only animal that does the classic "pounce" style attack.

Foxes, when hunting mice, do the same.

Foxes, despite being canine- are very catlike in some ways- some climbing ability- typically nocturnal- commonly pounce on mice- and have eye pupils that can be closed to slits.

[Eldan]

Now wasn't it a bit 50-50... or was it 75-25... that a cat could kill a commoner?

Pretty good, actually. The typical commoner with straight tens to all stats and a simple weapon deals potentially more damage, but the cat has the better armour, more and more accurate attacks, higher initiative, and can most likely ambush.

[SilverLeaf167]

Cats are also not the only animal that does the classic "pounce" style attack.

Foxes, when hunting mice, do the same.

Foxes, despite being canine- are very catlike in some ways- some climbing ability- typically nocturnal- commonly pounce on mice- and have eye pupils that can be closed to slits.

In case someone didn't understand, I meant they don't Pounce in D&D mechanic terms. In the game, it's probably more like a jumping charge, followed by a bite attack.

[Coidzor]

In case someone didn't understand, I meant they don't Pounce in D&D mechanic terms. In the game, it's probably more like a jumping charge, followed by a bite attack.

So the fleshraker's leaping pounce routine.

[hamishspence]

In case someone didn't understand, I meant they don't Pounce in D&D mechanic terms. In the game, it's probably more like a jumping charge, followed by a bite attack.

Yup. Cat's don't need the pounce ability to fight and hunt like real cats- the point being made was other animals fight (and act) a bit like cats as well.

"leaping pounce" probably isn't necessary though.

[Chilingsworth]

Are there any real world instances of cants killing people? I'd assume not, but then I remembered how well my assumptions usually turn out...

Also, does anyone else get the feeling this thread will end up summoning the Cat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named (TM)?

[Yora]

These ones?

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[Zeta Kai]

Housecats really rarely make "full attacks" after pouncing, unlike lions do. They might cause a scratch or two, but they come from trying to hold the prey in place. The bite is the thing that kills the prey. They only start using their claws if the initial attack doesn't do the job.

Against an opponent of equal or larger size, your average cat will commonly employ something akin to a rake attack: they will grip their foe with their front claws, while scratching & scraping with their rear claws. This is potentially their most damaging attack in RL, even more so than their bite. I've seen the aftermath of such fights, & its ugliness is only exceeded by its speed & efficiency. Ugh...

[Psyren]

These ones?

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That's what they want you to think. But let your guard down for a moment and they're shredding commoners with impunity.

Please, think of the commoners.

[Gullintanni]

Are there any real world instances of cants killing people? I'd assume not, but then I remembered how well my assumptions usually turn out...

Also, does anyone else get the feeling this thread will end up summoning the Cat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named (TM)?

I think the Cat thusly invoked was in fact, Snuggles.

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Snuggles the Death Kitty
Pseudonatural Paragon Cat
Size/Type: Tiny Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: ½ d8+19 (28 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 180 ft. (36 squares)
Armor Class: 91 (+2 size, +15 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck, +40 natural), touch 51, flat-footed 81
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+28
Attack: Claw +62 melee (1d2+35)
Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Full Attack: 2 claws +62 melee (1d2+35) and bite +60 melee (1d3+35)
Full Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant Insight, Improved Grab, Rotting Constriction
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Spell-like Abilities, Resist (Fire, Cold) 10, Resist (Electricity, Acid) 15, DR 10/epic, SR 40, Fast Healing 20, Epic Strike
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +23
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 40, Con 35, Int 18, Wis 37, Cha 22
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +17, Hide +16*, Jump +15, Listen +13, Move Silently +17, Spot +13*
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse(B), Multiattack (B)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Hopefully alone
Challenge Rating: 31

Snuggles receives a +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow (CL 35); 3/day - greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility (CL 15). DCs are Charisma-based

Constant Insight (Su)
Snuggles is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Improved Grab (Ex)
If Snuggles hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once Snuggles has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check he makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, Snuggles regains 10 lost hit points.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, Snuggles can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against Snuggles in this alternate form.

[hamishspence]

Also, does anyone else get the feeling this thread will end up summoning the Cat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named (TM)?

Can't find it here:
Homebrew Cat thread

though I suspect someone might come up with one by that name.
Or Catthulu.

[Yora]

Against an opponent of equal or larger size, your average cat will commonly employ something akin to a rake attack: they will grip their foe with their front claws, while scratching & scraping with their rear claws. This is potentially their most damaging attack in RL, even more so than their bite. I've seen the aftermath of such fights, & its ugliness is only exceeded by its speed & efficiency. Ugh...

The worst part is, that most cats apparently do it purely because of it's entertainment value.

[Foryn Gilnith]

the rat is quite difficult for the cat's +3 to listen and spot to detect when the rat is hiding and moving silently. Similarly though, the rat is effectively blind to the cat as well.

This is why the D&D stealth v. perception system is
Two random pixies should not epically fail at finding each other any more than two random humans should epically fail at finding each other.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

These ones?

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No.

Yarn for the Yarn Throne! Milk for the milk bowl!

[SilverLeaf167]

Against an opponent of equal or larger size, your average cat will commonly employ something akin to a rake attack: they will grip their foe with their front claws, while scratching & scraping with their rear claws. This is potentially their most damaging attack in RL, even more so than their bite. I've seen the aftermath of such fights, & its ugliness is only exceeded by its speed & efficiency. Ugh...

Well, yeah... the tactics vary a lot according to the situation. Maybe they should give cat's bite attack a disease? If a cat REALLY bites you, it's almost sure to get infected, sometimes very seriously. I once got a potentially deadly infection in my leg from a single cat bite, and even with medication it took over half a year to heal completely. The bite marks are still visible.

[Eldariel]

Pretty good, actually. The typical commoner with straight tens to all stats and a simple weapon deals potentially more damage, but the cat has the better armour, more and more accurate attacks, higher initiative, and can most likely ambush.

NPC Commoner also has a grand total of 2 HP (Avg. from 1d4 + 0 from Con), so yeah... He can one-shot the cat, but the chances of him hitting once before the cat hits him twice are kind of mediocre due to his +0 attack vs. Cat's AC of 14, and Cat's 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1 vs. his AC of 10 (or 13 if we give him a Hide Armor...which doesn't really make sense and he isn't even proficient so prolly not). Oh, and Cat has way better Initiative.

[Chilingsworth]

Spoiler

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I think the Cat thusly invoked was in fact, Snuggles.

Snuggles the Death Kitty
Pseudonatural Paragon Cat
Size/Type: Tiny Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: ½ d8+19 (28 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 180 ft. (36 squares)
Armor Class: 91 (+2 size, +15 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck, +40 natural), touch 51, flat-footed 81
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+28
Attack: Claw +62 melee (1d2+35)
Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Full Attack: 2 claws +62 melee (1d2+35) and bite +60 melee (1d3+35)
Full Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant Insight, Improved Grab, Rotting Constriction
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Spell-like Abilities, Resist (Fire, Cold) 10, Resist (Electricity, Acid) 15, DR 10/epic, SR 40, Fast Healing 20, Epic Strike
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +23
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 40, Con 35, Int 18, Wis 37, Cha 22
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +17, Hide +16*, Jump +15, Listen +13, Move Silently +17, Spot +13*
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse(B), Multiattack (B)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Hopefully alone
Challenge Rating: 31

Snuggles receives a +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow (CL 35); 3/day - greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility (CL 15). DCs are Charisma-based

Constant Insight (Su)
Snuggles is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Improved Grab (Ex)
If Snuggles hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once Snuggles has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check he makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, Snuggles regains 10 lost hit points.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, Snuggles can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against Snuggles in this alternate form.

Yup. That'd be him!

[Hanuman]

Does anybody know how the Monster Manual cat can even survive in nature? All of its attacks deal negative damage... (1d2-4, 1d3-1)
And why does everyone make jokes about cats killing commoners?

By your logic it probably gets worshiped by having a healing touch, it's claws cause negative damage.

[Myth]

This gives me an idea, of an Effigy Master making a cat effigy.

[Greenish]

How about a kobold commoner?

AC 12, claw/claw/bite, though at -1/-1/-6, but then with 1d3-1, they'd all have a chance to one-shot the cat.

[Edit]: Then again, a cat could kill one in the surprise round.