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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Okay, so Arcane Disciple isn't exactly broken. Used RAW, it means a wizard can add domain spells to his spellbook, and a sorcerer can have them as spells known, but they don't get them in addition to their new spells learned. That means a sorcerer who has the feat will have at least one precious known spell that can only be used once per day. What this means for beguilers and dread necros, I'm not sure. Maybe that they can add domain spells using their advanced learning?

    It certainly adds a little extra flavor and variety for arcane casters, but for the prerequisites and the domain spells all working off Wisdom, it isn't a great feat.

    Now, what if we changed the feat a bit and say that you DO get extra bonus spells, like the Extra Spell feat, but the number of extra spells you can know or have in your spellbook at any given time is equal to your WIS modifier?

    This is what I proposed to my DM, but are there any opinions about whether this would be a good way to fix it?

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    I'm not sure I see the problem here. These are divine spells, so you must be devout enough or your deity simply won't grant them. In game terms, that means having a sufficient wisdom score.

    It also means that most characters can't obtain 8th or 9th level spells with this feat, but really, three or four spells for one feat is already a good choice.

    So no, I don't think this is a good fix, because (1) fluff-wise it doesn't make sense, and (2) crunch-wise it makes an already great feat even better.
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    As I understand the feat, since it adds the spells to the base class' spell list, it works best for Dread Necro, Warmage and Beguiler. It gives them immediate access to all of the spells, restricted by their character level and based off of their wisdom score. Each spell is only usable 1/day, so while it's a good feat to improve these classes' versatility a bit, it's not game-breaking. For these classes, your change has no effect.

    Your proposed change would give sorcerers some added versatility, and would be a minor restriction on wizards. I guess it's your DM's call whether that's a good thing.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    9 spells for a single feat (limited by level and WIS modifier) is already a great bargain; compare it to the feats Extra Spell and Extra Slot. In JaronK's original Tiers discussion, a lengthy argument was made that merely using this one feat boosted the Beguiler from Tier 3 to Tier 2. These things combine to indicate to me, at least, that a 'fix' for the Arcane Disciple feat is either not needed, or is needed as a nerf rather than a boost.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    I think I should clarify. The description for the feat says that "You may learn the spells as normal for you class." I understand that to mean you can add them as spells known or put them in your spellbook as if they were class spells, but you don't automatically gain all the domain spells up to your level when you take the feat. So a sorcerer will have the same number of spells known whether she has the feat or not. Classes that have a set spell list would have to pick up those spells through advanced learning.

    That's my interpretation of the feat, but from what I've seen on various boards, it doesn't seem to be how it is used by a lot of people. What I suggested was a sort of compromise so that you get to learn a certain number of those domain spells for free based on your wisdom modifier. It's less of a bargain than 9 free spells, but certainly better than having to learn them as normal sorcerer spells.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe the Bard View Post
    I understand that to mean you can add them as spells known or put them in your spellbook as if they were class spells, but you don't automatically gain all the domain spells up to your level when you take the feat.
    That is correct, but note that most casting classes either know every single spell on their class list (e.g. beguiler, warmage) or can scribe as many as they want by just paying some money (e.g. wizard). The sorcerer is an exception, and this feat isn't really very good for them.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    These are divine spells, so you must be devout enough or your deity simply won't grant them. In game terms, that means having a sufficient wisdom score.
    Wait, what?
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That is correct, but note that most casting classes either know every single spell on their class list (e.g. beguiler, warmage) or can scribe as many as they want by just paying some money (e.g. wizard). The sorcerer is an exception, and this feat isn't really very good for them.
    That's what boggles me. The feat was clearly written with wizards and sorcerers in mind. But it becomes much more powerful for non-core classes that are not mentioned anywhere in the feat description. You'd think it would be the other way around; those classes that have set spell lists should use advanced learning to pick up the domain spells from Arcane Disciple.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Wait, what?
    "To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."

    Says so in the SRD. Why on earth should that apply to a priest but not a disciple?
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    "To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."

    Says so in the SRD. Why on earth should that apply to a priest but not a disciple?
    This is why I suggested using your Wisdom modifier to determine how many of the domain spells you would get as bonus spells. This would be the same for all arcane classes, whether you're a sorcerer who gets spells known, a wizard who scribes spells into a spellbook, or an arcane class with a set spell list.

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    "To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."

    Says so in the SRD. Why on earth should that apply to a priest but not a disciple?
    I'm trying to figure out how you'd need high wisdom score to be devout.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Yeah, Arcane Disciple for sorcerers pretty much sucks. The biggest advantage for them is to be able to use the specified spells from devices, not for normal casting from their own spell slots.

    I could easily see houseruling it that for sorcerers (and similar restricted-spells-known classes), you can "know" the spells for the purposes of casting without them counting toward your normal spells known, keeping the 1/day per spell restriction and adding a WIS modifier/day cap on the total number of arcane spells you can cast. Divine spells would still consume the normal spell slots when used this way.

    So, a sorcerer with a 15 WIS could cast 1st through 5th level divine spells (assuming he or she has up to 5th level slots available) from the specified domain once per day each, but not more than 2 divine spells per day total. That should make the feat workable for sorcerers, preserving their limited-yet-versatile nature, without overpowering it for them.


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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    I'm trying to figure out how you'd need high wisdom score to be devout.
    Because traditionally that's what the attribute meant. It was only in 3E that they (correctly) figured out that this made the attribute completely pointless for anyone who's not a divine caster, and redefined it to mean "perception" instead. Archetypically, however, priests are definitely known for their wisdom, not the quality of their spot checks.
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Gabe, maybe it would help if I understood better what you're trying to accomplish with your change. It seems that you're thinking of using this for a character in a game - a sorcerer, I'm assuming?

    It's hard to know what classes the feat was "meant" for, but you're right in saying that as written it's not very useful for sorcerers. Your suggestion definitely does nerf the feat for the classes that are currently using the feat.
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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Because traditionally that's what the attribute meant. It was only in 3E that they (correctly) figured out that this made the attribute completely pointless for anyone who's not a divine caster, and redefined it to mean "perception" instead. Archetypically, however, priests are definitely known for their wisdom, not the quality of their spot checks.
    That's about casting divine spells, but you don't need to be able to cast divine spells or have high wisdom to be devout, IMO.
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  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    That's about casting divine spells, but you don't need to be able to cast divine spells or have high wisdom to be devout, IMO.
    Well, your character doesn't need to cast arcane spells or have high intelligence to be smart, either. There's just an obvious correlation between the two. Ability scores are way too granular to decide everything about your character.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fix for Arcane Disciple

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    Gabe, maybe it would help if I understood better what you're trying to accomplish with your change. It seems that you're thinking of using this for a character in a game - a sorcerer, I'm assuming?

    It's hard to know what classes the feat was "meant" for, but you're right in saying that as written it's not very useful for sorcerers. Your suggestion definitely does nerf the feat for the classes that are currently using the feat.
    I have an 18th-level bard/sublime chord whose using the feat to gain a few spells from the healing domain. It's mostly done for flavor because his deity used to be a healbot cleric that I played in a previous campaign. The sublime chord has a wisdom score of 19, so he can actually get Mass Heal as a 9th level spell soon. But he only gets two 9th level spells, and it would be a shame to be able to use one of them only once per day. So basically I'm trying to optimize around the feat without getting rid of it completely.

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