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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Our group may be trying its first Pathfinder game and I had a fun idea for a character: an Eidolon who's master is still alive but completely unable to act, and always near her Eidolon (this could be accomplished by having an enemy caster having cast Trap the Soul on her, I think).

    Is this idea even possible? For flavor reasons, I'd like to play the biped Eidolon. Is such an Eidolon useful enough in combat? What do I do when the Eidolon "dies"? An how should I go about building one?

    I hope the Playground can help me!
    "One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere."

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ashiel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    The concept is pretty cool, but here's a few things you might wish to consider:

    • Eidolons reach a maximum of 15 HD by 20th level, so if you're just going eidolon (and thus not taking class HD or NPC levels) then you'll really fall behind in terms of saving throws and the like. You'll also be very vulnerable to spells with effects based on HD (such as Holy Word or Blasphemy). If you're allowed to take class levels, it'll make it much easier on you.
    • Eidolons aren't subject to dispel magic, but you'll have a very specific set of weaknesses which can pop up fairly regularly by mid levels. Spells like dismissal and banishment are essentially save-or-dies for you, and you wink out in areas of antimagic, such as within an antimagic field; making you useless in some cases. Spells like Holy Word and Banishment
    • Eidolons are outsiders, so staple buffs such as enlarge person have no effect on them unless the summoner themselves is using the spell (due to their special class feature).
    • At low levels you'll have some troubles with low AC (eidolons cannot wear armor). Likewise, your HP won't be very high (eidolons start with 2 HD but they don't receive maximum starting HP) at first; so you'll be a little squishy. If you purchase one of the 3 point damage reductions (DR 5/chaos for example) it'll greatly improve your survivability.
    • If slain, without the summoner you couldn't return to the plane; meaning your adventure is pretty much over at that point. No raise dead for you. You don't even die, persay. You just can't get back without your AWOL summoner calling you.
    • Eidolons don't deal with damage reductions very well. You can invest 2-4 points into learning how to use weapons to get past this, but most eidolons rely on having a lot of natural attacks as the brunt of their offensive abilities. While a cheap evolution allows you to bypass DR/Magic easily enough, you'll need a weapon for more exotic reductions.


    Likewise, if it's your first Pathfinder game, maybe you should consider something a little more normal. Kind of like a campaign to refresh the mind and get back to basics.

    Otherwise, it could be do-able. It's just you'll have to be very careful. You can access some rather interesting options early though (such as flight, damage reduction, magic-equivalent natural attacks, 3 attacks/round, etc) which can help. You may want to invest in magic items that help ward you against anything that could target your summoned-outsider nature.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Okay, thanks. I can see I'd have a lot of weaknesses, as I'm essentially playing a class feature. So, I need some serious opti-fu - more than I can muster, at least.

    Also, would a Trap the Soul on the Summoner let the Eidolon remain in its summoned state? Or am I missing something. Would petrification + Stone Shape work?
    "One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere."

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ashiel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceaon View Post
    Okay, thanks. I can see I'd have a lot of weaknesses, as I'm essentially playing a class feature. So, I need some serious opti-fu - more than I can muster, at least.

    Also, would a Trap the Soul on the Summoner let the Eidolon remain in its summoned state? Or am I missing something. Would petrification + Stone Shape work?
    The main conditions that would bar the summon from existing are unconscious, asleep, or if the summoner is killed; as per the entry on the Eidolon. Anything else is probably fair game. So yeah, flesh to stone would result in a useless summoner with an eidolon still about; and I guess so would trap the soul.

    As long as you've got the heads up on your weaknesses, I think you'll be okay. I'm sure you didn't want to play the eidolon for power (otherwise you'd want the summoner there to buff you like they do so well), but many players might not realize the "hidden" drawbacks of doing some of those things; which is why I wanted you to be aware (to make a more informed decision if you weren't aware).

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goober4473's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    I suggest making a regular character (such as a fighter or monk), and describing it as an eidolon. Maybe work with the DM to come up with some racial stats that are balanced with the core races, including being an outsider (which I believe normally can't be raised from the dead), etc.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    I would either homebrew or come up with a refluff. Like for instance a flaw (really major too) is that you pass out when your eidolon is further than 100 ft or leaves/dies/whatever. And get a free feat. I think that is absolutely reasonable. Then do everything in your power in character to stay close to your eidolon. Maybe pretend that its your wife or bodyguard or whatever. Basically make it a phobia to leave the presence of your eidolon. Maybe explain it as epilepsy even. If your DM is good he'll give you more power eventually than a free feat.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    I'd just make a fighter with Eidolon as your flavour text and appearance. If I'm ever running a pathfinder game I intend to ban their summoner and use my own version of it, so take it with a grain of salt.
    Game systems played: D&D Basic (and other rainbow coloured boxes), AD&D, D&D 2, D&D 3 & 3.5, Champions, GURPS, Warhammer, Cyberpunk, Rifts... and more I can't remember.

    Current Campaign(s): Savage Worlds post apoc.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaldrin View Post
    I'd just make a fighter with Eidolon as your flavour text and appearance. If I'm ever running a pathfinder game I intend to ban their summoner and use my own version of it, so take it with a grain of salt.
    That's not really banning it is it? Unless you're jokingly thinking its too powerful?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    That's not really banning it is it? Unless you're jokingly thinking its too powerful?
    It's banning their version, yes. It's not too powerful. I just think it's a stupid way to go about a summoning specialization class. I've hated it from day one.
    Game systems played: D&D Basic (and other rainbow coloured boxes), AD&D, D&D 2, D&D 3 & 3.5, Champions, GURPS, Warhammer, Cyberpunk, Rifts... and more I can't remember.

    Current Campaign(s): Savage Worlds post apoc.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ashiel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaldrin View Post
    It's banning their version, yes. It's not too powerful. I just think it's a stupid way to go about a summoning specialization class. I've hated it from day one.
    But why not leave it as an option for your players? What makes it so "stupid" that you would outright deny it to your players?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Rixx's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    (eidolons start with 2 HD but they don't receive maximum starting HP)
    In the final version, eidolons get only 1 HD at first level, which is not maximized.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    But why not leave it as an option for your players? What makes it so "stupid" that you would outright deny it to your players?
    The concept and execution of the eidolon in its entirety.
    Game systems played: D&D Basic (and other rainbow coloured boxes), AD&D, D&D 2, D&D 3 & 3.5, Champions, GURPS, Warhammer, Cyberpunk, Rifts... and more I can't remember.

    Current Campaign(s): Savage Worlds post apoc.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ashiel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixx View Post
    In the final version, eidolons get only 1 HD at first level, which is not maximized.
    Oops. I dunno why I said that. I just got done writing up a group of cultists who used the summoner class and their eidolons all indeed have 1 HD. I guess that's what I get for not referencing it on the spot.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Yes, refluffing would be a possibility, thanks for the suggestions.
    However, I was really hoping I could optimize an Eidolon so it would be at least able to perform alongside other melee classes. Is this possible?
    Edit: And if so... how?
    Last edited by Ceaon; 2011-01-06 at 05:19 PM.
    "One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere."

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Rixx's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    I'd say a quick fix, if you just wanted to play as an eidolon alone, would be to give the eidolon full hit dice progression (and probably a maximized first hit die). Keep everything else (like the attack limits and evolution points) the same.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    An Eidolon as PC isnt a very good idea. The Main thing is Alot of the 'Eidolons are Broken' threads Besides often having incorrect Math. Sometimes they involve the 'the eidolon has all the magtic items and my summoner is an invalid' Ideas.

    It creates a disproportionately strong Creatre.

    Secondly the Eidolon is partially balanced having the summoner as a weak link.

    That All said you can probly re-tool it to be an okay Pc class. Though a better idea migt be to stick with he summoner and just change around th relatonship so the Eidolon is in charge.

    this keeps the class blanced as it was intended.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo_Rat View Post

    That All said you can probly re-tool it to be an okay Pc class. Though a better idea migt be to stick with he summoner and just change around th relatonship so the Eidolon is in charge.
    I agree with this; the summoner need not be incapacitated, he/she could merely be an incompetent NPC. This gives some of the support spellcasting support and a bit of a weak link, and provides an amusing option for dealing with NPCs.

    Mechanically, you'd probably have to homebrew something, or give the eidolon negative LA (or rather, treat it as the eidolon of a character a few levels above the party).
    Last edited by ajkkjjk52; 2011-01-08 at 10:35 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Eidolon PC (Pathfinder)

    Yeah, I really want to have the summoner herself incapacitated, soulgemmed or whatever. Fluff preference.

    I should mention my group isn't very high-op generally, and we're trying a new(ish) system so I don't think I have to over-optimize. That being said, I tries building a skirmisher fly-by Eidolon. Comments?

    Type: biped
    Skills: Use Magic Device, Fly, Acrobatics, Diplomacy, maybe some others
    Feats: 1 Toughness, 3 Skill Focus (UMD), 6 Flyby Attack, 9 Vital Strike, 11 Magical Aptitude, 14 Improved Vital Strike, ...
    No idea for my level 17 and 20 feats.
    Evolutions (very roughly in order): Skilled (UMD) (1 point), Weapon Proficiency (2+2 points), Flight (2+1 point), Improved Natural Armor (4x 1 point), Damage Reduction (3+2 points), Reach (1 point), Ability Increase (Str) (4x 2 points)

    Which would leave me with 128 HP, saves of +11/+10/+9, 41 AC, a speed of 30 (fly 50) and an unmodified attack roll of +26 at 20th level, and of course some magical items to improved these numbers.

    The idea is that the Eidolon makes a Fly By attack with a magical Greatsword or something similar, provoking no AoO because of reach (we usually have humanoid opponents) and dealing a little extra damage because of Vital Strike. If this is not a viable option, the Eidolon defaults to using wands or scrolls via UMD.

    Is this an okay, playable option or am I severly overlooking something?
    Last edited by Ceaon; 2011-01-09 at 03:19 PM.
    "One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere."

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