Gishes involving the tier 3 casters (3.5)

[gallagher]

I would be interested to know what Gish builds hat arent based onbeig a wizard or sorceror... And possibly also the warlock, though I doubt here are any PRCs that would fit that

for reference, this is for a lvl 9 campaign in ravenloft

[Coidzor]

Hmm, well, there's Psychic Warrior+Slayer, but that's psionics.

I've heard of shugenjas being mentioned as a potentially viable base for a divine caster-fighter that isn't a CoDzilla.

Dread necromancers can spend their early life as pseudo-gishy... And level 9 is a great level to PrC out for them. Dread Necro 8/Abjurant Champ 5/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Eldritch Knight 5 would give 19/20 casting and 16/20 BAB. Substituting out levels of EK for classes that grant an expanded spell list if that's desired. Not a whole lot of spells that synergize with magically augmenting one's self in fighting, but it does allow one to lead one's minions into the fray and benefit from any uttercold assault necromancy effects (a wall of cold and negative energy that heals you and your undead minions and hurts your enemies, while not the traditional sort of gish buff is still quite handy).

Beguilers similarly get martial weapon proficiency of some sort, IIRC, and light armor, so they have relatively easy access to gish PrCs compared to wizards and sorcerers. And can get Bard spells relatively easily if they use the Unseen Seer PrC to qualify for Prestige Bard. Or else they qualify for Prestige Bard already, there's some way for them to do it, which expands their spell list quite nicely to allow entry into PrCs like swiftblade and to cast traditional gish spells. The Bardic Knowledge and music of PrC bard can also open them up for Sublime Chording it up in later levels.

I believe Beguiler 6 can enter PrC bard without a hitch.

[Psyren]

Binder 15/KotSS 5 gets +16 BAB and a whole slew of tricks, all of which are supernatural. (Read: no ASF, no AoOs, no components, cannot be countered or dispelled.)

(You also soul bind as a Binder 20.)

[Draz74]

Duskblade 20.

Bard 9 / Swiftblade 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Swiftblade +8?

[stainboy]

Barbarian/Bard is freaking awesome.

By strict reading of the rules you can Inspire Courage while raging, and Inspire Courage and Heroism at least make up for losing Mighty Rage and a few points of BAB. Low level bard spells are most useful before combat so losing spells while raging doesn't hurt much. You swing a greatsword about as well as a pure barbarian, but you have enough interesting abilities not to be dead weight outside of combat.

[Coidzor]

Bard 9 / Swiftblade 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Swiftblade +8?

Alternatively, for more casting, some Abjurant Champion could be mixed in at the end instead of just Swiftblade.

Actually, I believe Bard 6 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion +1 / (Dragonslayer 1) / (Spellsword 1) / Swiftblade 5-7 would also be viable, depending upon one's sources available.

With only Bard and Swiftblade though, Bard 10/ Swiftblade 10 still gets 6th level spells and +17 BAB. Depending upon how much of the bardic music one wants, one could cut off at Bard 6 or 9 and get most of it.

For example Bard 6/ Abj Champ 5 / Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom, or Swiftblade 7 gets 17/20 or 19/20 casting and 18/20 BAB, and Bard 9 / Abj Champ 5 / Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 1 / finishing gish PrC 4 (which opens up 4/5 casting classes too, like cyran avenger) gets 18 or 19 out of 20 casting and 17/20 BAB....

It'd likely involve druid without some hoops to get druidic as a language without taking a level in the class, which would violate the tier 3 caster rule, but Fochlucan Lyrist is full BAB, dual-progressing, full-casting, and gives more bardic music uses per day.

It just requires hoops to be jumped through in order to enter it without burning 3-4 levels on qualifying.

[dextercorvia]

Mystic Ranger, with SotAO.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I made a Wu Jen gish around the idea of using Body Outside Body and Giant Size. Went something like Human Paragon 1/Wu Jen 1/HP +2/WJ +2/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +2/Archmage 1 (for Giant Size as an SLA and thus usable by the clones)/EK +2/Archmage +1 (for Transcend Mortality for the clones)/EK +1.

[Psyren]

A Wu Jen Jade Phoenix Mage named Amakusa would be awesome.

[Amphetryon]

You can make a JPM from any of the list casters with Warblade or Crusader, as you see fit.

[TheWhisper]

Okay, someone either explain what a "Gish" is, or point me to the post-o-frequently-used-slang.

[Tvtyrant]

Okay, someone either explain what a "Gish" is, or point me to the post-o-frequently-used-slang.

Githyanki Fighter-Wizard!

[sonofzeal]

Okay, someone either explain what a "Gish" is, or point me to the post-o-frequently-used-slang.

As Tvtyrant said, it comes from the Githyanki, but these days it applies to any melee/caster hybrid. Strangely, nobody tends to think of Clerics or Druids, who tend to mix melee and casting perfectly. Duskblade is probably the closest to what people think of as a "Gish", although there's usually a subtle implicit assumption that a proper "Gish" is multiclassed or PrC'd in some way. It's a weird, nebulous concept really. But if you can wear heavy armor, power attack with a greatsword, and still nail people with fireballs - you're probably a Gish.

[Gabe the Bard]

I agree that bards and sublime chords would make a good gish. You'd get all the high-level buffs that wizards get. Plus, bards have slightly better BAB, inspire courage and inspire greatness, and Snowflake Wardance which can all be combined for a great attack bonus.

[Coidzor]

A Wu Jen Jade Phoenix Mage named Amakusa would be awesome.

Heh, that's one I had to look up.

Wu Jen's Tier 3, eh? Forgot about that one.

[Urpriest]

Heh, that's one I had to look up.

Wu Jen's Tier 3, eh? Forgot about that one.

Wu Jen is...ambiguous in Tier. It's got a few of the broken higher tier options, but still has a pretty restricted spell list. It's a tough call generally.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Wu Jen is...ambiguous in Tier. It's got a few of the broken higher tier options, but still has a pretty restricted spell list. It's a tough call generally.

It also has some restrictions on prestige classes, as it can't get into sorcerer -only ones and some of the general wizard ones have issues, placing it over all at either low tier 2 or high tier 3.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist or Ruathar 3

Bard 6/ Warblade or Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist or Ruathar 3

Bard 8 (with Militia or Otherworldly feat)/ Knight Phantom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Knight Phantom 8

Bard 8/ Fighter or Barbarian 1/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3

[Psyren]

Heh, that's one I had to look up.

Wu Jen's Tier 3, eh? Forgot about that one.

Actually, I didn't mean to suggest Wu Jen for this thread. It was TDC's post that brought them to mind.

Wu Jen are actually low T1-high T2. Their list is small compared to that of a Wizard but they get most of the big offenders from core - Wish, Shapechange, Gate, Astral Projection, Time Stop, etc... even the lower level goodies like Alter Self, Rope Trick, Polymorph, Solid Fog etc. They have unlimited spells known and can qualify for/benefit from almost any PrC a Wizard can. They are also Int-SAD.

They are weaker than wizards (very few Force spells for instance, and no real support outside CArc/CM) but the gap narrows further if you follow Spell Compendium's suggestion to expand their list with elemental-flavored spells. Doing so can actually put divine spells in their grasp, as Metal could stray into the Cleric list and Wood of course screams Druid.

They are definitely far more powerful than anything in T3, able to break the game 7 different ways before breakfast.

[gorfnab]

Heh, that's one I had to look up.

Wu Jen's Tier 3, eh? Forgot about that one.

Wu-Jen 5/ Warblade 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10/ Abjurant Champion 4 - Transcend Mortality spell (CM) + Emerald Immolation ability (ToB) = blowing yourself up for fun and profit.

[TheWhisper]

As Tvtyrant said, it comes from the Githyanki, but these days it applies to any melee/caster hybrid. Strangely, nobody tends to think of Clerics or Druids, who tend to mix melee and casting perfectly. Duskblade is probably the closest to what people think of as a "Gish", although there's usually a subtle implicit assumption that a proper "Gish" is multiclassed or PrC'd in some way. It's a weird, nebulous concept really. But if you can wear heavy armor, power attack with a greatsword, and still nail people with fireballs - you're probably a Gish.

Interesting. Right now, I'm playing 3.5 for pretty much the first time, and I'm building an interesting melee Warlock/Ur-priest/Eldritch Disciple who spices up Eldritch Glaive attacks with teleporting around the battlefield and casting divine spells.

It's versatile and fun and no one else in the party has even been able to figure out what class I am.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As Tvtyrant said, it comes from the Githyanki, but these days it applies to any melee/caster hybrid. Strangely, nobody tends to think of Clerics or Druids, who tend to mix melee and casting perfectly. Duskblade is probably the closest to what people think of as a "Gish", although there's usually a subtle implicit assumption that a proper "Gish" is multiclassed or PrC'd in some way. It's a weird, nebulous concept really. But if you can wear heavy armor, power attack with a greatsword, and still nail people with fireballs - you're probably a Gish.

People probably don't think of building divine gishes because (A) there's no "building" involved ("Druid 20. Done.") , (B) "gish" usually suggests arcane/martial before anything else due to the word's origins, and almost all published fighty/casty PrCs being arcane-only probably contributes to that, and (C) the "nailing people with fireballs" part is much easier with arcane or psionic gishes than divine due to their having a much better selection of blasting abilities on the whole.