Lightly optimize a 15th level Aristocrat?

[Scarlet-Devil]

You read the title, I want some ideas on making a 15th level aristocrat that could pose some kind of challenge to a, let's assume balanced, party of 10th-ish level players, but who doesn't reek of fermented dairy products. No templates, core races, ideally human. By fifteenth level an aristocrat has 3 attacks, I'd say that qualifies him as a pretty damn good swordsman, make it show; is he trained in exotic combat techniques and maneuvers? Equipped with the mighty blade of his forefathers and garbed in the best protective talismans and enchanted armor his court could afford (let's just say he has access to a fifteenth level PC's wealth for equipment)?

Following these limitations, how could this duke/nobleman/whatever be a threat to the party should they wind up dukeing it out with him?

[satorian]

Do you really need him the Aristocrat class? Any class can be aristocratic, save maybe the barbarian. You want maneuvers? Just make him a warblade and call it a day. Maybe take a level of bard (or aristocrat, I guess) to give him the courtly knowledge you'd like him to have.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Do you really need him the Aristocrat class? Any class can be aristocratic, save maybe the barbarian. You want maneuvers? Just make him a warblade and call it a day. Maybe take a level of bard (or aristocrat, I guess) to give him the courtly knowledge you'd like him to have.

Nono, he simply must use the aristocrat class, that was the whole point of this thread .

[Zonugal]

You read the title, I want some ideas on making a 15th level aristocrat that could pose some kind of challenge to a, let's assume balanced, party of 10th-ish level players, but who doesn't reek of fermented dairy products. No templates, core races, ideally human. By fifteenth level an aristocrat has 3 attacks, I'd say that qualifies him as a pretty damn good swordsman, make it show; is he trained in exotic combat techniques and maneuvers? Equipped with the mighty blade of his forefathers and garbed in the best protective talismans and enchanted armor his court could afford (let's just say he has access to a fifteenth level PC's wealth for equipment)?

Following these limitations, how could this duke/nobleman/whatever be a threat to the party should they wind up dukeing it out with him?

You are going to have a really hard time with this just from an action economy stand-point. If the party has a single caster on it he'll lose (the Aristocrat class just isn't good enough to compete against magic).

With that said you may be better served having him force one on one duels between himself and the party's warriors as a means to level the playing field.

Feats like Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion; the Aristocrat has access to all knowledge skills after all...) and Elusive Target (Complete Warrior) are some strong options. The tactical feats Combat Cloak Expert (Player's Handbook 2), Combat Panache (Player's Handbook 2) and Einhander (Player's Handbook 2) may be something to look into as well.

Regarding wealth I might crack open Arms & Equipment and begin looking at exotic mercenary prices. You might not hit like a hammer but that Hill Giant you paid for 16 GP a day sure will.

[Myth]

The problem with your scenario:

A group of 10th level PCs that are capable casters who know how to play will absolutely rape this guy. They have 5th level spells which compared to swinging some sword the plain way (aka. non TOB) and being outnumbered is just absurd.

The second problem is that you are filling this guy with 15th level WBL. They'll beat him like a pinata and take the loot after, which means they will get a power increase you might not want. Just because he is wearing a chain shirt +4 doesn't mean they have to use it. They could easily sell it and the Wizard can buy 50 levels of spells with it's price (making stuff up don't quote me on that math) or buy a rod of metamagic something... You get the point.

The best thing about nobility is that they have a lot of underlings: generals, royal guard, personal bodyguards, court magicians, cousins or children who are far removed from the throne and thus took up the sword or spellbook... etc.

If you simply must boost this guy do it by making him read tomes, get magical tattoos and purchase contingent spells with this gold, not investing in things that can be looted.

[Coidzor]

^: Also, grafts as a possibility.

Well, he himself is not going to be a threat by himself. As an aristocrat, he's going to have to have back up, either plot-based or bought out of the WBL.

[Runestar]

Pay to be polymorphed into a horned devil?

[Trixie]

Copy Kubota approach. That is, don't fight fairly. Magic? How about item with high SR? High saves? Globes if invulnerability?

To offset this, apply all sorts of drawbacks on the items should they win. That +4 armor? It has embossed crest of that particular guy, news of death spread fast, and you can't sell it anywhere as everyone will just pale and call law enforcement. Or have it cursed if you're not of particular bloodline. Or race, even.

[Ytaker]

Having high level wizards and clerics buff him up absurdly is the only real way to go. Protection against spells, spell resistance, bull strength, unholy aura, haste, mind blank, greater heroism, whatever. He might survive a round or two.

He could also do some unholy ritual and be transformed into a more effective creature, like a pit lord.

[snikrept]

He should have lots and lots of competent retainers and vassals run in and start defending, healing and buffing him when he yells Guards!!

[Galdor Miriel]

Using wbl for an npc is ludicrous. Design your npc to be a fun, level appropriate challenge, give him the abilities you want him to have that will make it a fun fight, don't really build him like a PC would bebuilt, what is the point? Then he has a bit of treasure that the pcs can use.

You can easily avoid the PCs getting a +4 chainmail too early by just boosting his armor class and saying he has +3 chain in the loot.

PC creation rules are for PCs. Monsters are a guideline, so you can judge the power and there is absolutely no problem with creating tweaking mixingmonsters and/or NPCs

So I guess that when I dm I am saying I do not build my NPCs, I just try and make them a challenge that is appropriate and the rest is roleplay.

[Myth]

Using wbl for an npc is ludicrous. Design your npc to be a fun, level appropriate challenge, give him the abilities you want him to have that will make it a fun fight, don't really build him like a PC would bebuilt, what is the point? Then he has a bit of treasure that the pcs can use.

You can easily avoid the PCs getting a +4 chainmail too early by just boosting his armor class and saying he has +3 chain in the loot.

PC creation rules are for PCs. Monsters are a guideline, so you can judge the power and there is absolutely no problem with creating tweaking mixingmonsters and/or NPCs

So I guess that when I dm I am saying I do not build my NPCs, I just try and make them a challenge that is appropriate and the rest is roleplay.

I wouldn't advise pulling stuff out of your arse as a DM. If your monsters/NPCs are not rules legal your players will know sooner or later that you can't do something or other with any of the available choices in 3.5

The system is vast but one can't hide the fact that he is arbitrarily making stuff up forever. There's plenty of ways for the OP to design an interesting encounter for the players within the 3.5 ruleset, the problem is that he wants to use the Aristocrat class only.

[Ernir]

Knight of the land:

Spoiler

Show

Starting Abilities (nonelite array, as appropriate for NPC classed humanoids):
Str 13, Dex 9, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12 (increases go here)

Feats:
Wild Cohort (heavy warhorse) [1], Mounted Combat [Human], Power Attack [3], Mounted Combat [Riding Boots], Ride-By Attack [Battle Bridle], Spirited Charge [6], Quick Recovery [9] (LoM), Imperious Command [12] (DotU), Leap Attack [15] (CAdv).

Skills:
Ride, Intimidate, and Jump are relevant, rest can be whatever. Probably Handle Animal, Spot, or Spellcraft or something.

Stuff:
Riding Boots of the Battle Charger [12k+1.5*2k] (MIC)
Battle Bridle [9k] (MIC)
Sudden Stunning Valorous Lance [10k+mundane] (DMG2,UE)
Banner of the Storm's Eye [15k] (MIC)
Belt of Battle [12k] (MIC)
Ring of Spell-Battle [12k] (MIC)
Fearsome Mindarmor Armor +1 [9k+mundane] (DotU, MIC)
Vest of Resistance +5 [25k]
Vampire Torc [5k] (MIC)

About 50k GP left over. Gloves of Strength +6 or something? Another contingent spell?

Contingent Spells (person) [CArc]:
{table=head]Spell|Condition|Price
Teleport|Falls unconscious|4500
Heal|Falls unconscious|6600
Dimension Door|Snap fingers three times|2800
Freedom of Movement|Say "Help, I can't move!"|2800
Death Ward|"Foul necromancer!"|2800
Lion's Charge (SpC)|Say "Ruuuaaagh!"|800
Lion's Charge (SpC)|Say "Raaauuugh!"|800
True Strike|Say "Time to die!"|100
True Strike|Say "Begone from my realm!"|100
Delay Poison|Is subjected to poison|600
Obscuring Mist|Say "You have not seen the last of me!"|100
Revivify (SpC)|Dies|5500
Heal|Revivify spell goes off|6600
Protection from Energy|Is subjected to energy damage|1500
(Room for one more)|Stuff|Stuff
[/table]
Contingent Spells (horse):
{table=head]Spell|Condition|Price
Fly|Rider says "To the skies!"|1500
[/table]

This is assuming that taking Leadership and Landlord to get an ECL 13 Wizard in a flying tower to fight your battles is not what you want - even if it is thematically justifiable.

[Myth]

The above loses to a single Feeblemind. Int = 1, means no speaking, but is not disabled. And the party will get all that mounted ubercharger gear.

[Ernir]

The above loses to a single Feeblemind. Int = 1, means no speaking, but is not disabled.

If it has already used the Ring of Spell-battle, and fails the save. Which it will have at least a +9 (Base) + 5 (Cloak) + 5 (Mind Armor) = +19 on. The save DC of an Int 28 Wizard's (20 start, +6 item, +2 level ups) Feeblemind is 24, could be higher if he builds for enchantments. Meh. Should do for a "fighting chance" build.

And the party will get all that mounted ubercharger gear.

Which is what follows from the parameters of the original post, not a problem with the build.

If the PCs getting too much gear is a problem, you can always just get more awesome contingent spells rather than real items.

[Tael]

He's noble from a long line of nobles. It makes complete sense that his weapons and armor could only be worn by members of his line.

[Ossian]

Make him fight in a room that gives bonus only to him (the spirits of the ancestors merge with him and give him insane boosts, every "X" rounds" to spice it up). Stuff like spell resistance, DR and stat boosts. That, and magic items which are trapped or something to make them unavailable for looting (say: castle explodes after he dies). He is still going to get glassed, but he might put up a decent fight.

[Incanur]

With high abilities and that crazy amount of gp I think he could be a serious threat. I like Ernir's build pretty well aside from the pathetic non-elite array. I'd switch out Leap Attack because I doubt it works for mounted charging. Perhaps throw in Martial Study for Iron Heart Surge in case of emergencies. The previously mentioned Knowledge Devotion could also help with 18 ranks in the appropriate skill.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Hm, assuming a party consisting of fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric, or some close variations, I really see no reason he couldn't be a challenge if decked out enough, depending on what the casters are doing. Elusive target would go a long way to make him a pain in the arse to the fighter/barbarian guy and the rogue trying to flank him. I would give him a cloak of displacement or something similar to negate the rogue's sneak attack and generally make him far harder to hit. A belt of spell resistance would make the spellcasters more likely to fail than not at affecting him with any spell that allows spell resistance, unless they have spell penetration.

For his weapons I think duel wielding might be best; I'd give him weapon enhancements that could be more effective than the actual damage, like wounding and stygian. With stat boosting items like gloves of dexterity +6 and an amulet of health +6 he should be significantly harder to kill, imagine a dexterity of 22 or so, and a +5 mithril breastplate of nimbleness, with that and a +5 ring of protection his touch AC would be 21, pretty hard for most wizards, and probably for the cleric as well. His normal AC would be 31, which the meleers would probably have a lot of difficulty with as well, not to mention the concealment from his cloak. Even this might be too souped up already for the PCs, if I wanted them to actually win. As far as all the loot, if I didn't want them to have it it would be a simple matter of having reinforcements arrive just as the battle ends, forcing the PCs to flee.

[ka_bna]

Give him a Scarab of Protection and say it only has 'bout 3 charges left (normall 38k, but with 3 charges left maybe 10k?).
Gives him SR 20 (which may, if the dice are willing, annoy 10th lvl PC's) and protection against a few things. If you don't want the PCs to have this because of WBL, just Finger of Death the PC's a few times, and the scarab will turn to useless dust (and they'll even like it, because the loot was helpful!).

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Why is it a one-on-one fight?

Someone mentioned his retainers before, and I think that an aristocrat should be leveraging his power in the most aristocratic way possible. Who does he have on his payroll? How can he keep his presence obfuscated from them? What social circles has he tapped into?

The power of an aristocrat lies in the gameworld, really.

Also, see Batman. The dude has definite levels in Aristocrat.

[WarKitty]

This is one case where I really would use leadership. You can even skip the cohort, or make the cohort a cool mount. I'm more concerned about followers - a few warriors, even lower-level ones, can really change the dynamics.

[Grelna the Blue]

This is one case where I really would use leadership. You can even skip the cohort, or make the cohort a cool mount. I'm more concerned about followers - a few warriors, even lower-level ones, can really change the dynamics.

+1. Heck, +2.

What's the point of being a leader if you have to fight the scruffy adventurers by yourself?

Also, situational bonuses should be big. If he's on his home turf in his own great hall, let his guardsmen have arrow slits/ornamental screens to fire from that give them good cover bonuses. Let him have the switch on his chair that opens up the pit beneath the players (putting a Rancor in the pit is optional). He didn't get to 15th level in an NPC class by fighting fair, after all.

[Aharon]

I know you said no templates, but does that mean you don't want templates?

(Please read on...)

In the "Weapons of Legacy" Sourcebook, there is the "Legendary Creature" Template. It basically gives the Legacy-Abilities to creatures, for a slight CR increase (but CR shouldn't be a problem anyway, I think NPC-levels count 1/2, don't they?). This might be also cool from a fluff viewpoint - Nobility in this aristocrats family actually does come with a legacy
Bonus Points if you also give him an item of legacy... preferably a scepter, crown or other sign of rule.

If competently done, this is quite some magic, that a) won't bloat his wealth and b) won't make him to powerful. Only downside is that most of his power doesn't come from his class levels, but his wealth - but that's almost a given for non-magic-wielding NPC-classes.

[Bang!]

I like Ernir's post, except Leap Attack and Wild Cohort. (Leap Attack on a mounted character seems problematic and Wild Cohort seems superfluous on an NPC, when you could just stick the guy on a powerful mount without.)

I'd replace one or both of those with another mass fear feat like Dreadful Wrath from Player's Guide to Faerun (or Frightening Presence from Draconomicon, if DW's not available) and the Master of Poisons feat from Drow of the Underdark.

And I'm assuming the Never Outnumbered skill trick is in there too.

The mass fear effect would stack nicely with the intimidate abilities to reduce the party's advantage in the action economy (level 10-ish means no Hero's Feast, right?). Poisons are nice NPC toys because they're one-shot (so the party doesn't get a permanent wealth increase) and PCs are generally more vulnerable to poisons than other creatures (there are lots of potential NPC undead/devils/demons/constructs/plants/elementals, and typically very few PCs that fall into any of those categories), making them a way to make encounters scarier without giving the PCs toys that will make them much scarier.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

+1. Heck, +2.

What's the point of being a leader if you have to fight the scruffy adventurers by yourself?

Also, situational bonuses should be big. If he's on his home turf in his own great hall, let his guardsmen have arrow slits/ornamental screens to fire from that give them good cover bonuses. Let him have the switch on his chair that opens up the pit beneath the players (putting a Rancor in the pit is optional). He didn't get to 15th level in an NPC class by fighting fair, after all.

Indeed.

I also just realized, if you want to play up the social manipulation angle, why not emulate The Count of Monte Cristo? He's like the epitome of a suave, debonair aristocratic antihero, and he does a fantastic job of arranging circumstances and manipulating events and people to get his goals.

[nedz]

Just give him a permanent anti-magic effect or item (I'm not sure how exactly, but this must be possible) and a few combat feats. He'll still get paggered unless you use stuff like furniture perhaps to stop them all ganging up on him (Terrain and Movement are required for any single foe).

Leadership for a 13th level cohort is a must really, as are similiarly levelled hirelings. You have to level the action economy playing field if you want this toi work.

I considered running an aristocrat campaign a couple of years ago. One option I considered was that it would be OK for them to multiclass into something that was amateur like Sorceror or Favoured Soul. Wizard and Cleric on the other had would be right out, because they are "Trade".

He could also go for that Aristocrat only PrC

[Psyren]

I would use the Noble class from Dragonlance instead (PC version of Aristocrat.) They're pretty much the same except the Noble gets nice class features. It also gets Able Learner for free.

[Coidzor]

One thing that'd be a wealth sink without being readily available to PC looting would be buying a powerful mounted creature with a price.

But a potential problem with such a situation is that a Battletitan (MM3), for instance, is a CR 16 creature, and a human aristocrat 15 is a CR... 7? 8? Giving it WBL of a 15th level PC without giving it the elite array might have it as a 14 though. :/

Griffons are CR 4, Hippogriffs are CR 2, and Pegasii are CR 3. And as expensive as minor magical items, so the SRD's probably out there. So I'm not really aware of much that would cover the realm inbetween the ultimate fighting animal in the game and lower-level mounts other than magebred/warbeast or skimming the splatbooks for salable creatures or assigning prices to those you believe to be reasonable...

Could have some figurines of wondrous power like the limestone crab and/or maybe monstrous centipede...

Might look in the A&EG for guard creatures' prices as well.

[Kobold-Bard]

Give them Sovereign levels.[/subtleselfpromotion]

Need to do a non leadership/landlord based version. Thanks for reminding me.