Humans as WMD's?

[druid91]

Well I had an Idea for a fey setting that was a bit more open than usual.

Here yes the fey, hide. Usually, but everyone knows who is in charge here. The fey rule from something akin to the underdark. But they also rule the land above. They just don't make their presence obvious. Except for the fact that everyone will refer to nobility who aren't there.

Now one idea I had as to why this was. Was because while perfectly capable of fighting on their own. And even winning against humans relatively easily. Humans can wield Iron. Human warriors are used as terror troops by the fey because of the iron being damaging to them. When protected by the feys magic they become nigh on unstoppable.

The methods they would get these troops by are different for each faction, Some may trade changelings, some might get a yearly "sacrifice" of a young boy, Some might just go on occasional hunts for usable humans.

Whatever the method they take them young and raise them to be war-machines.

Any ideas? Would this make a good base for a campaign setting?

[Skorj]

What makes humans, in particular, desireable as such troops? As opposed to dwarves, gnomes, or, well, warforged?

[Arbane]

What makes humans, in particular, desireable as such troops? As opposed to dwarves, gnomes, or, well, warforged?

Humans aren't quite as ugly as those?

[druid91]

Dwarves I imagined as one of the few competitors out there, Straight to the point, gruff, and with a strong sense of law.

Gnomes I was planning on hijacking along with elves for my generic fey race, they can't all be satyrs. Slap on DR/cold iron and I'm good to go.

Warforged? They could work but they would be more of a dwarven thing. They just don't seem to fit to me.

And finally, Humans are pliable. They can do anything. You want an archer? have an archer. You want a swordsman? Here you go. You want an engineer? No problem.

They have no set society that can't be changed. They can easily after a few generations adapt to their symbiotic relationship with the fey.

[Elric VIII]

Humans' natural greed makes them perfect mercenaries. Dwarves tend toward honor and other silly things, Warforged are constantly going all emo with their incomplete identity as living beings, and gnomes are just annoying.

[druid91]

Humans aren't quite as ugly as those?

This as well. Fey are big on appearance.

[The Glyphstone]

Why would there necessarily be warforged in the first place? In a fey-dominated setting like this, traditional magic would likely be far more dominant over the magitek-aimed elements that would drive the invention of warforged and their like.

[Nameless Ghost]

A cold iron golem could prove a real threat. Resistance to magic, unaffected by most of the beguiling effects the fey might use and, well, made of cold iron!

[hunt11]

Another advantage to using humans over almost any race is that it would take less time for them to reach maturity and to start being actually useful for the fey.

[druid91]

Why would there necessarily be warforged in the first place? In a fey-dominated setting like this, traditional magic would likely be far more dominant over the magitek-aimed elements that would drive the invention of warforged and their like.

This.. is a very good question. I like warforged, but they do seem at odds with the setting.

[The Glyphstone]

This.. is a very good question. I like warforged, but they do seem at odds with the setting.

It happens. My homebrew setting had warforged to begin with, but they caused just too many problems with regards to both the assumed tech level to make them and what they'd do to social and economic dynamics. So I took them out.

[KingFlameHawk]

Another advantage to using humans over almost any race is that it would take less time for them to reach maturity and to start being actually useful for the fey.

Also because of this there are a lot more humans so there would be the advantage of numbers on their side.

[Randel]

Also, it could be that humans are easier to "train" than other races (from an evolutionary standpoint).

Dwarves have very long lives and tend to operate on honor alot and would never attack a fellow dwarf. Over the millenia of dwarven civilization then all of the dwarves who would attack other dwarves were executed for their crimes. In order for dwarven civilizations to exist where the members live for centuries in mines with eachother then they all need to be completly able to rust eachother, and as a result then dwarves are naturally honorable and work with other dwarves.

Orcs are wild and savage, kind of like bears or other wild beasts. Each orc hates members of other races and is only marginally less hateful of other orcs. A lone orc could probably just leave the group and go hunt stuff on his own, but he finds its easier if he's got some buddies to help make bigger raids. Thus, orc tribes or raiding parties are primarily a band of orcs working together to raid stuff and are led primarily by whichever orc happens to be nasty and big enough that the others won't challenge him. If the group grabs enough loot from a raid then its likely that a few of the orcs will just take their share and split to live alone. Killing the leader likely breaks apart the group because the group is basically a bunch of tough individuals who work together for their own purposes.

Humans however are naturally social creatures and are willing to attack and kill other humans. The average human could be a farmer or soldier or something who just 'has a job to do' and prefers living in a place with other humans around to watch their back. Human leaders just tell the people below them to do something and as long as everyone more or less get paid/protected/fed then it works out. There could be cruelty, starvation, public executions or whatever but the humans involved tend to say "I was just following orders" and they go along with it until either something breaks the whole system down or they personally get put on the chopping block. Human history is full of leaders who put themselves on a throne and pay a bunch of soldiers to do their dirty work... they pay their soldiers with taxes from those they protect/oppress and if anyone starts questioning the logic behind this whole scenario then they get publicly executed as an example to others.


In short: Dwarves are too loyal to eachother for elves to manipulate, Orcs are so viscious and self-centered that they can't really be controlled, but humans naturally organize themselves into groups. As long as the elves can jam themselves into the upper part of the human social structure then they can get all the human underlings to follow them just as if they were humans.

Humans don't really care if the guy on the throne is a human or an elf, the soldiers will follow as long as they get paid and the commoners will follow as long as they don't get stabbed. The fact that elves live for centuries longer than a human just means that the King of that land won't die as often and there aren't all those messy power struggles when the heirs to the throne try to take it for themselves.

On the flipside: Humans are utterly terrifying when they are organized and going against you. Since they naturally form into groups they will shun and hate anyone who isn't part of their group. A human nation with a human king might see a human nation with an elven king and call them "lap dogs for the fey" and then get all riled up to wipe out the elves for the glory of humanity (and their own human king). Lets not even go into what they do with orcs, goblins, and the like. Humans are willing to kill eachother for stupid reasons and throw their lives away for even stupider ones, you don't even want to know what kind of reasons they use to kill members of other races.


Thus, the fact is that humans are kind of like the mercenaries of the races. They can go with pretty much anyone as long as they are getting paid or think they have a good reason to go along with it. They can be led around like sheep but can attack like trained guard dogs. As allies and underlings that are excellent, but as enemies they are terrifying.

[DeltaEmil]

Hobgoblins seem to be better. They have the same maturity speed like humans, are inclined to be martially trained, are cruel and mean (which dark-heartened fey should love), and although lawful are still mercenary enough to not be bound by silly rules like dwarves.
Unless you count goblinoids amongst the fey, then I'd say cats would be good substitutes for hobgoblins, which are also better than humans, seeing as cats kill human commoners en masses.

Hobgoblins are the nazi goblins. They wear a top hat and monocles while butchering their enemies and talk sophisticated stuff like tactics and how to more efficiently butcher enemies while talking about tactics.

[WarKitty]

Of course, there's no reason why these other races have to exist in your setting. If I ran a game like that, I'd probably just say that other humanoids don't exist.

[Coidzor]

They have no set society that can't be changed. They can easily after a few generations adapt to their symbiotic relationship with the fey.

Really now, you can't manage culture as a world builder?

Another advantage to using humans over almost any race is that it would take less time for them to reach maturity and to start being actually useful for the fey.

Kobolds and Goblins, the two races most commonly placed into slave castes, both beat out humans in terms of birth rate and rate of maturity. Goblins mature at some point between 6 and 12, from what I recall of reading on the subject, though that's possibly earlier edition material, but have a max life span well below that of humans, thus they have a relatively higher plasticity than other candidates due to not having as long of a racial memory.

Kobolds reach maturity at around 6ish, IIRC, and live for a period of time comparable to humans unless they're dragonwrought in which case it's a better than human lifespan. Kobolds have obvious utility to this Fey conglomerate for enlarging their subterranean realms and dealing with unsightly veins of iron ore. And due to their reptilian manner of reproduction, don't need kobolds to raise them at all after the eggs are laid.

[Tvtyrant]

Besides, normal troops does not equal WMD. A Tarrasque, or a Lich even does. But masses of troops are weapons of small scale destruction.

[Coidzor]

Besides, normal troops does not equal WMD. A Tarrasque, or a Lich even does. But masses of troops are weapons of small scale destruction.

Indeed, I thought it was going to be about fey ruling from the shadows and having the humans be living bombs and cattle.

[FelixG]

Why would there necessarily be warforged in the first place? In a fey-dominated setting like this, traditional magic would likely be far more dominant over the magitek-aimed elements that would drive the invention of warforged and their like.

This is a really simple fix.

Some group, called group X for now, found out about the control but knew as such a small group they could not do much.

Now group X decided they needed more muscle to pose a threat to the Fey that had taken over, but they couldn't openly advertise for their little club so they turned to Magitek for the solution.

Born from this were their warforged, but sadly the word got out and the movement was crushed, but some of these plans remained around in fey or resistance hands and a few new ones are turned out each year.

tada, they are in :P not at odds either

[druid91]

Really now, you can't manage culture as a world builder?

Well I could make humans into a special culture with all sorts of cool traditions. But I'd rather stick with Players handbook, Their culture is very malleable, due to their high turnover rate. At least until the fey stepped in, then their culture became more set. That happens when ruled by beings who last for hundreds of years.

As for goblins, and kobolds. They don't have the same shock value. Which is scarier? A hundred individuals ranging from five to six feet in height? or an army of little guys ranging from three to four feet in height?

Besides, normal troops does not equal WMD. A Tarrasque, or a Lich even does. But masses of troops are weapons of small scale destruction.

They are less normal troops as opposed to what you send when you want large amounts of your enemies to die horrible painful deaths.

Normal troops would be elves, maybe some gnomes brought along for ranged magic support.

Humans are brought along when you want the enemy to go into a wets their pants level of panic. Full armies would be rare,

[Coidzor]

Which is scarier? A hundred individuals ranging from five to six feet in height? or an army of little guys ranging from three to four feet in height?

The army, of course. An army suggests something larger than 100 guys. And if they're riding wolves...

And if shock troops are what one wants, orcs are stupid and easily manipulated provided one understands the interaction of carrot and stick with them. And hobgoblins actively want to pursue martial endeavors, take well to discipline, and already have the same sort of fey vibe that redcaps and such do, as well as thriving with a strict hierarchy with their base, given monoculture.

Since the Fey could field an army to crush the humans if they wanted in your example, it seems clear enough that they're wanting the servitors as cannon fodder and shock troops. Specialization of servitors supplies both roles more handily in the form of the two largest of the goblinoid species.

Humans are brought along when you want the enemy to go into a wets their pants level of panic. Full armies would be rare,

Then you don't want humans. RAW, that's just not what they mechanically bring to the table.

Now, homebrew them into nukes (can go boom at a command from their masters) or bioweapons(fast diseases? disease-curses taking a leaf from mummy-rot?) or with some form of especially nasty poison or chemical attack, then they'd be closer to that. 1 extra feat ain't really going to do that unless using it to shape the soulmeld that let's one spit acid is enough....

Hmm. You may want to take a look at the Emerald Legion, Voidmind, and Lolth-touched for some food for thought.

Maybe some flavor of were-creature...

[Tvtyrant]

You could go Hill Giant-WereDireBear creatures; those are essentially just big humans and truly would be a force to be reckoned with. But 100 6 ft. people wouldn't crush an army of Gnomes; they would be slaughtered. Humans are slow and not particularly strong animals in both RL and any game I have ever heard of; the only argument for them is that they can use Iron, but so can Gnomes.

Whats more terrifying, 100 humans on foot or 1000 Gnomes on Mastiffs?

[druid91]

You could go Hill Giant-WereDireBear creatures; those are essentially just big humans and truly would be a force to be reckoned with. But 100 6 ft. people wouldn't crush an army of Gnomes; they would be slaughtered. Humans are slow and not particularly strong animals in both RL and any game I have ever heard of; the only argument for them is that they can use Iron, but so can Gnomes.

Whats more terrifying, 100 humans on foot or 1000 Gnomes on Mastiffs?

You seem to be missing something. Multiple things in fact.

1: Gnomes can't wield iron. They are part of the fey.

2: Gnomes primary schtick will be casting. They are most assuredly not known for their combat ability. Most of the race is wizards or something akin to a wizard, they have relied on elves for most of recorded history for standing between them and the enemy.

3: Now imagine their is a few mounted elves seeded throughout the ranks of the humans throwing up globes of invulnerability. OR antimagic fields. Or if they really mean business that and firing disjunctions and rays of antimagic throughout the enemy. The humans are the elves toy.

4:How on earth do you suggest that they kidnap young from such monstrosities? They would lose people, not an option.

The army, of course. An army suggests something larger than 100 guys. And if they're riding wolves...

And if shock troops are what one wants, orcs are stupid and easily manipulated provided one understands the interaction of carrot and stick with them. And hobgoblins actively want to pursue martial endeavors, take well to discipline, and already have the same sort of fey vibe that redcaps and such do, as well as thriving with a strict hierarchy with their base, given monoculture.

Since the Fey could field an army to crush the humans if they wanted in your example, it seems clear enough that they're wanting the servitors as cannon fodder and shock troops. Specialization of servitors supplies both roles more handily in the form of the two largest of the goblinoid species.



Then you don't want humans. RAW, that's just not what they mechanically bring to the table.

Now, homebrew them into nukes (can go boom at a command from their masters) or bioweapons(fast diseases? disease-curses taking a leaf from mummy-rot?) or with some form of especially nasty poison or chemical attack, then they'd be closer to that. 1 extra feat ain't really going to do that unless using it to shape the soulmeld that let's one spit acid is enough....

Hmm. You may want to take a look at the Emerald Legion, Voidmind, and Lolth-touched for some food for thought.

Maybe some flavor of were-creature...

Nasty poison/chemical weapon? Iron weapons... I plan on making it a bit more dangerous than just bypassing DR, it's going to be more akin to a poison when I'm done with it. And no-one else in the fey kingdoms can use it.

Dwarves can but they are more an enemy than a part of the fey empire.

Dragons can use it, but they have nearly died out, and they are majorly annoyed at the fey metaphorically kidnapping their little buddies the humans.

Goblinoids don't exist, mainly because I'm sick of goblinoids.
Me: I go around the corner what do I see?
Dad/DM: There are three goblins..
Me: Again!?

Kobolds do, but they are more akin to tuckers kobolds, xenophobic trap, and tactics masters. Hence why they haven't been overrun.

Giants? They are rare, like all the random crazy monsters that aren't animals.

[super dark33]

you mean 'Humen riders'? (last panel)

[jebob]

I know its off-topic, but hey:

In short: Dwarves...

Made my day

[Coidzor]

You seem to be missing something. Multiple things in fact.

2: Gnomes primary schtick will be casting. They are most assuredly not known for their combat ability. Most of the race is wizards or something akin to a wizard, they have relied on elves for most of recorded history for standing between them and the enemy.

This you just didn't mention at all, so you shouldn't condescend to us for not knowing it. Especially since there's no real mechanical reason that gnomes wouldn't have warriors going off of their PHB fluff which you mentioned as being the basis for your worldbuilding due to liking the monocultures as a starting point.

Also, the point was not as a specific suggestion to you but an example to provoke thought.

3: Now imagine their is a few mounted elves seeded throughout the ranks of the humans throwing up globes of invulnerability. OR antimagic fields. Or if they really mean business that and firing disjunctions and rays of antimagic throughout the enemy. The humans are the elves toy.

Still not as threatening as a horde of goblins and isn't threatening because the humans are human.

4:How on earth do you suggest that they kidnap young from such monstrosities? They would lose people, not an option.

If they have enough magic to throw around willynilly and be worth spit as overlords, they wouldn't lose a meaningful number of individuals to get a breeding population, especially if they're immortal.

Nasty poison/chemical weapon? Iron weapons... I plan on making it a bit more dangerous than just bypassing DR, it's going to be more akin to a poison when I'm done with it. And no-one else in the fey kingdoms can use it.

And so the fey are using humans as shock troops to kill.... other fey? I'm going to need some more explanation than that to even come close to understanding your angle here.

Goblinoids don't exist, mainly because I'm sick of goblinoids.

Fair enough, but the points I raised about them still stand. For largely the same reasons you apparently OD'd on them from your father's DMing.

Kobolds do, but they are more akin to tuckers kobolds, xenophobic trap, and tactics masters. Hence why they haven't been overrun.

That doesn't do anything to explain how highly, highly magical and powerful fey don't have some of their own, really. It seems to more explain why they haven't wiped them out or taken all of their stuff.

Giants? They are rare, like all the random crazy monsters that aren't animals.

You seem to have a rather skewed idea of the standard D&D world or else want to make the D&D world mundane and yet make humans fantastic at the same time. It seems almost contradictory to me.

[druid91]

This you just didn't mention at all, so you shouldn't condescend to us for not knowing it. Especially since there's no real mechanical reason that gnomes wouldn't have warriors going off of their PHB fluff which you mentioned as being the basis for your worldbuilding due to liking the monocultures as a starting point.

Also, the point was not as a specific suggestion to you but an example to provoke thought.



Still not as threatening as a horde of goblins and isn't threatening because the humans are human.



If they have enough magic to throw around willynilly and be worth spit as overlords, they wouldn't lose a meaningful number of individuals to get a breeding population, especially if they're immortal.



And so the fey are using humans as shock troops to kill.... other fey? I'm going to need some more explanation than that to even come close to understanding your angle here.



Fair enough, but the points I raised about them still stand. For largely the same reasons you apparently OD'd on them from your father's DMing.



That doesn't do anything to explain how highly, highly magical and powerful fey don't have some of their own, really. It seems to more explain why they haven't wiped them out or taken all of their stuff.



You seem to have a rather skewed idea of the standard D&D world or else want to make the D&D world mundane and yet make humans fantastic at the same time. It seems almost contradictory to me.

1: I could have sworn I had, But point. I'm sorry.

2: You have to remember the whole horrible painful death thing if humans kill fey with iron weapons.

3: They could. But why use all that effort when they have piles and piles of humans around?

4: Think like drow. Their is a lot of infighting amongst the fey courts.

5: Goblinoids :twitch:

6: Yes they could have a few. Maybe even a lot. Humans still outnumber them. They are much more valuable as strategists and engineers than as troops.

7: Wait? you mean they aren't rare in your normal d&d world? That it's no big deal to find a pyro-hydra, or giant in your back yard?

[Douglas]

The big question that immediately comes to mind for me here is: if humans are so devastatingly effective against fey, why haven't humans rebelled and taken over by now?

[druid91]

Mainly because they are only devastatingly effective, when protected by fey.

Humans with magic will be beyond rare. And even then they will be sorcerers. Not exactly the sort of guys you can count on to do much protecting.

TL;DR

Humans are fighters, without the mages behind them they are appropriately less damaging.

[claricorp]

an idea would be that many of the more brutal races(orcs, goblins, hobgoblins etc.) live in an area less accessible to the fey, humans and such could be used to route them out.

another would be that the brutal races have been overused in wars before and are in too low a number to be used as common fodder and there numbers must be rebuilt. the fey have switched to humans and half races for the time being and may be finding them more reliable/effective/tactical/independent etc than there previous warriors.