Introduction to AD&D 2nd Ed

[GreyMantle]

Hello there, Exalted Playground.

I began playing D&D with 3.5, for various reasons.

But, having done that for a bit, I'm more than a little bit curious about the older editions-specifically 2nd Ed.


If I were to have a hankering to pickup some of those books, what would be the ones more veteran gamers would recommend?

In addition, I've discovered that there was apparently a revision of 2nd ed released in the mid-90s? Did that mean anything? Was it related to the "Player's Option" series?

Was there any sort of "Campaign Setting" sourcebook released for 2nd ed Greyhawk?


I thank anyone who takes the time to answer in advance.

[Domigorgon]

I've never played 2nd edition, but my favourite things that came with it were the original Infinity Engine games (Baldur's Gate etc.) and the Planescape setting - highly recommend!

[GreyMantle]

Yeah, those games are certainly excellent, Torment especially.

[Ozreth]

I don't have much 2e experience but have been looking into it myself. Most people tell me to just start with the 3 core books as that is where 2e shines. Then add/subtract things as you see fit.

Also, there was a Greyhawk setting released, I believe in a box set as well as several other greyhawk boxes and a books. 2e was the era of campaign settings so every setting that you are familiar with was either introduced or reintroduced in 2e.

[SimperingToad]

Yeah, pretty much start with core, then look to expanding if you want. But that pretty much applies to any game. Learn the basics, then add on when you feel comfortable.

There is little difference between the original 2E core books and the revised (black cover) books. Mostly formatting and art. Personally, I prefer the original as the books are easier on the eyes for me, but mixing and matching won't really have much of an effect rule-wise. I'd also recommend the hardback Monstrous Manual over the binder version.

The Player's Option books are a different kettle of fish. They came out after the revised covers, and present a boatload of optional rules and customization rules, much of the concepts contained therein getting reworked into 3E. I personally can live without them even though there are some nice fiddly bits which can be used.

[DMClockwork]

Well other then the core 3...

Most of the Planescape stuff is great, The Complete Book of Villains is an excellent resource for ideas to flesh out characters (not just evil ones), most of the "Complete X's Handbook/ Complete Book of X" series (replace X with Bard/Psionics/Elves/etc.), The Castle Guide, and the World Builder's Guidebook.

Some of the above listed have the added benefit of not being edition or even really system specific, so even if you find you don't like 2e those are definitely useful ttRPG books.

It's too bad this post didn't come a few months ago, WOTC had a bunch of 2e pdfs for free on their site. The link is still there but it seems to be broken

[Roland St. Jude]

Yeah, pretty much start with core, then look to expanding if you want. But that pretty much applies to any game. Learn the basics, then add on when you feel comfortable.

There is little difference between the original 2E core books and the revised (black cover) books. Mostly formatting and art. Personally, I prefer the original as the books are easier on the eyes for me, but mixing and matching won't really have much of an effect rule-wise. I'd also recommend the hardback Monstrous Manual over the binder version.

I completely agree on all accounts.

The Player's Option books are a different kettle of fish. They came out after the revised covers, and present a boatload of optional rules and customization rules, much of the concepts contained therein getting reworked into 3E. I personally can live without them even though there are some nice fiddly bits which can be used.

I agree with this, too. There are some support books that might be of interest, Book of Artifacts, the one on the gods, etc. But I wouldn't pick up the Players Option stuff until you've played the core into the ground. It offers lots of alterations and potential rule changes, but it's really unnecessary (and I don't recall us adopting many of them).

What I'd suggest you do is get your hands on the PHB, DMG, and Monstrous Manual. Start playing and research what campaign settings you like. As Ozreth mentioned, 2E was the era of campaign settings. Read up on those and pick ones that seem of interest to you. They tended to get pretty good support.

One other thing 2E has that 3.x lacks is modules. Modules had been around since the D&D/1st Ed. A&D days, but I really think the 2E ones were where they hit their stride. Less tournament-driven than the earlier ones with some really good arcs.

[GreyMantle]

Thanks, this is precisely what I had been hoping for.


Concerning modules, does anyone have suggestions for what their favorites were? Also, how much adaptation is needed to run 1E modules in 2E?

[hamlet]

What Simpering Toad said, plus this:

Yes, Greyhawk got released in a 2nd edition format called From the Ashes. However, I recommend against it. It's overly expensive nowadays and has a lot trimmed out so that a lot can be added in in the form of . . . well . . . IMO stuff you don't need, like little adventure cards and so on.

If you're interested in Greyhawk, pick up a copy of the old World of Greyhawk boxed set from the 80's, and then pick up a copy of a little book called "Greyhawk Adventures." It's "updated to 2nd edition" sorta kinda and has some setting specific items and spells and some specialty priests which is nice. Not all the gods got the specialty priest workup, but it gives you a baseline so that you can work from there based off of the original boxed set, or do some intense googling to find some other fanwork specialty priests. Less is more here, though.

If you're really interested in doing a setting, then I can make a couple recommendations. Forgotten Realms is very nice for 2nd edition as long as you keep things simple. There are just oodles of products out for it, but I find the best baseline to start with is a copy of the greybox setting and a copy of "Forgotten Realms Adventures" for specialty priests and spells. Past that, you kind of want to turn the dial back a little. Less is more most times.

Dark Sun is the 2nd edition ruleset stretched, beaten, hammered, tortured, and miscagenated into something new and awesome. It's really the showcase setting for what the AD&D rules were capable of if you were to take the "toolbox" concept and run with it all they way to the goalposts. Get the original boxed set (not the revised one) and Dragon Kings and the Psionics expansion. The rest is trash. Oh, and the monster manual expansions of course.

Dragonlance blue boxed set is good. Just ignore all the class info for the Knights of Solamnia and assume knights are fighters/paladins/clerics and ascend the ranks as described in the fluffy bits. Also, don't try to use 2nd edition dragons if replaying the war of the lance. Bad things will happen.

Kingdoms of Kalamar is, IMO, just about the best AD&D campaign setting for your money. Get the 3.5 version and/or the AD&D orange boxed set for specialty priests and a spare set of maps. Worth every cent and then some.

As for sourcebooks and expansions of the rules . . . that's really your call (assuming you are the DM). My recommendation is, as always, less is more. The various complete guides are loaded with alternating gold and manure. Sometimes might be worth it to pick and choose some of the stuff that turns your crank from them. There were two sets (one for priests and one for wizards) of complete spell compendiums that had all spells ever printed for the 2nd edition. Worth the money though you want to be carefull about how you parcel them out to players. Keep the faucet here turned low or you will be unhappy. Tome of Magic is worth it, as is the Book of Artifacts if you want to meddle around with that kind of stuff.

And of course Dungeon Magazine should be something you start collecting. All the best 2nd edition adventures were there.

[hamlet]

Thanks, this is precisely what I had been hoping for.


Concerning modules, does anyone have suggestions for what their favorites were? Also, how much adaptation is needed to run 1E modules in 2E?

The best 2e modules came out of Dungeon nine times out of ten. There are a few standouts that everybody always holds up.

Castles Forlorn is, IMO, one of the best, especially if you add in about 30-40% of Feast of Goblyns adventure into it and allow for some side adventures to add in XP and fill up some of the inevitable wait times that will crop up. Just be sure to slice off a lot of Feast of Goblyns because a lot of it is terrible.

I HIGHLY recommend Dungeon Magazine #10 adventure called (I think) The Towers. Stargate 15 years before stargate, and done better.

Forgotten Realms book Lords of Madness is all about undead, and a couple of the adventures in it are really fun.

Running 1e modules in 2e is virtually conversion free. The only changes you might have to make are in spell descriptions, levels of NPC's, and a few notable monsters (dragons, demons, devils, giants, and one or two others). Otherwise, it's run as is.

[Matthew]

Best place to survey the products available is probably TSR Archive. The rules for first and second edition are about as close as the two editions of Star Wars D6, which is to say casual players probably will not even notice that there is a difference. A really good introduction to second edition is TSR 1105 First Quest, but probably not worth tracking down if you are already familiar with the concepts. It does contain a few bits and pieces that really ought to have been included in the rules, but were left out for various reasons [e.g. advice on handling something not covered by the rules (assign a probability and roll a die), and standard secret door probabilities].

The three books you need to start off are:

TSR 2100 Dungeon Master's Guide (1989)
TSR 2101 Player's Handbook (1989)
TSR 2140 Monster Manual (1993)

Originally, the Monster Manual for second edition was sold in short folios, but the compilation is a lot easier to track down! Truthfully, the Dungeon Master's Guide is pretty bland and much inferior to the first edition version, but worth having. These books were all revised and reprinted in the mid nineties, but aside from larger font, some minor errata, and a totally different layout and art the content is identical. In the case of the Monster Manual, I think only the cover was changed. As others have mentioned above, aesthetically the unrevised versions are generally more pleasing, but that is mainly subjective preference.

TSR 2160 Dungeon Master's Guide (1995)
TSR 2159 Player's Handbook (1995)
TSR 2140 Monster Manual (1996)

There were numerous supplements to the core rules, such as the two hardback books:

TSR 2108 Legends & Lore (1990)
TSR 2122 Tome of Magic (1991)

The former is a list of real world deities with game system information for use with AD&D, and the latter a collection of spells and some additional rules for magic, which I found quite useful at the time. It also has a number of spells that have little use outside of the context of:

TSR 9266 Battle System (1989)
TSR 9335 Battle System: Skirmishes (1991)

...which were mass combat systems for use with AD&D and miniatures.

In addition to these, there were also three lines of supplementary products for the rules, the DMGR, PHBR, and the HR series. As you might expect, the two former provided supplemental rules for the Dungeon Master and Player, respectively (though, in truth, all of the material had to meet with the approval of the game master). The HR series provided the framework for seven distinct semi-historical periods, so you could play AD&D: Rome, AD&D: Crusades, AD&D: Renaissance, and so on.

Dungeon Master's Guide Rules Supplements

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TSR 2112 DMGR1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide (1990)
TSR 2114 DMGR2 The Castle Guide (1990)
TSR 2123 DMGR3 Arms and Equipment Guide (1991)
TSR 2128 DMGR4 Monster Mythology (1992)
TSR 2133 DMGR5 Creative Campaigning (1993)
TSR 2144 DMGR6 The Complete Book of Villains (1994)
TSR 2151 DMGR7 The Complete Book of Necromancers (1995)
TSR 2164 DMGR8 Sages & Specialists (1996)
TSR 2170 DMGR9 Of Ships and the Sea (1997)

Player's Handbook Rules Supplements

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TSR 2110 PHBR1 Complete Fighter's Handbook (1989)
TSR 2111 PHBR2 Complete Thief's Handbook (1989)
TSR 2113 PHBR3 Complete Priest's Handbook (1990)
TSR 2115 PHBR4 Complete Wizard's Handbook (1990)
TSR 2117 PHBR5 Complete Psionics Handbook (1991)
TSR 2124 PHBR6 Complete Book of Dwarves (1991)
TSR 2127 PHBR7 Complete Bard's Handbook (1992)
TSR 2131 PHBR8 Complete Book of Elves (1992)
TSR 2134 PHBR9 Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings (1993)
TSR 2135 PHBR10 Complete Book of Humanoids (1993)
TSR 2136 PHBR11 Complete Ranger's Handbook (1993)
TSR 2147 PHBR12 Complete Paladin's Handbook (1994)
TSR 2150 PHBR13 Complete Druid's Handbook (1994)
TSR 2148 PHBR14 Complete Barbarian's Handbook (1995)
TSR 2155 PHBR15 Complete Ninja's Handbook (1996)

Historical Resource Series

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TSR 9322 HR1 Vikings Campaign Sourcebook (1991)
TSR 9323 HR2 Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook (1992)
TSR 9376 HR3 Celts Campaign Sourcebook (1992)
TSR 9370 HR4 A Mighty Fortress Campaign Sourcebook (1992)
TSR 9425 HR5 The Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook (1993)
TSR 9408 HR6 Age of Heroes Campaign Sourcebook (1994)
TSR 9469 HR7 The Crusades Campaign Sourcebook (1994)

Back in the day, I saved up all my pocket money and bought one of these every month or so, but in all honesty you do not need them, most are absolutely superfluous to the core game. When I was about 16 or so, though, the Complete Book of Villains (I think it was) opened my eyes to adventure design, but most people are probably now acquainted with the basic ideas it conveyed through the internet (it really is an information marvel).

As already touched on, in the mid nineties the Player's Option and Dungeon Master's Option books appeared with the revised core books:

TSR 2149 Player's Option: Combat & Tactics (1995)
TSR 2154 Player's Option: Skills & Powers (1995)
TSR 2163 Player's Option: Spells & Magic (1996)
TSR 2156 Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns (1995)

These were quite different from all the supplemental material that had come before, and in many cases quite unusable with some of it (the pick and choose intent of AD&D was easily lost by anybody reading the earlier supplements, since so much of it interlocked). Combat & Tactics is basically the D20/3e combat system bolted onto AD&D, complete with "Attacks of Opportunity". Skills & Powers and Spells & Magic are point based character creation guides intended to create much higher variability between individual character races and classes, but lend themselves very easily to optimisation abuse (by which I mean very unequal options and unclear rules that can be badly misread).

The mid nineties was when I cancelled my subscription to Dragon Magazine and more or less gave up on D&D until about 2000. Sure, we still played the odd game now and then, but the recycled art and ideas, amongst other things, made it increasingly feel like a self devouring serpent. MtG was also a factor, as I recall, as well as just our general age and interest in drink and girls. Still, in the fifteen years since, I can probably count on two hands, maybe even one, the number of products I have bought from Tactical Studies Rules or Wizards of the Coast.

When it comes down to it, second edition is kind of "build your own D&D" and an imagination is pretty much all you need for that. Nowadays, when playing AD&D I lean towards a very stripped down version of the game, default races, default classes, no proficiencies, simplified equipment, short spell lists, and the B/X attribute tables. I keep on hand:

TLG Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works (2008)
TLG Castle Zagyg: Yggsburgh (2005)
TLG Castle Zagyg: Dark Chateau (2005)
WotC 11742 Greyhawk Gazetteer (2000)
TSR 9578 Player's Guide (1998)
TSR 9405 WGR6 City of Skulls (1993)
TSR 1064 From the Ashes (1992)
TSR 1043 City of Greyhawk
TSR 1015 World of Greyhawk Setting (1983)
TSR 9025 World of Greyhawk Gazetteer (1980)

...but truthfully, I rarely use any of it, except probably the world maps! As far as modules go, I have been collecting the OSRIC Advanced Adventures line from Expeditious Retreat Press and First Edition Dungeon Crawl Classics from Goodman Games and Black Blade Publishing.

I think if your players are new to AD&D then you might as well pull out the old AD&D classics, like A1-4, G1-3, D1-3, and so on, but if you are finding those hard to obtain, then AA1 Pod Caverns of the Sinister Shroom is a pretty good choice. as Hamlet says above, most of the really good second edition adventures were published in Dungeon Magazine, though if you are buying into a campaign setting then there are module arcs that you could collect. There are very few "generic" offerings, which I cannot say bothered my teenage self, as he had plenty of time and making adventures was half the fun!

[dsmiles]

If we're talking supplements here, I'd pick up the Skills and Powers book, Plansecape, Lankhmar, and Forgotten Realms.

[SimperingToad]

Thanks, this is precisely what I had been hoping for.


Concerning modules, does anyone have suggestions for what their favorites were? Also, how much adaptation is needed to run 1E modules in 2E?

One thing to be careful of from 1E to 2E is the fact that some monsters received power boosts, giants and dragons being two examples. If you have the 2E MM though, you can update modules easily.

Some things like specialist mages will need to be taken into account as well, mostly from the perspective of wether you want NPCs encountered to be specialists.

[olthar]

I played first and 2nd edition and when 3rd came out was one of the people who refused to play it. Now that I've played a 3.5 game for a few years I would recommend one thing. Don't play straight 2nd edition. There are a lot of things about 2E that I like a lot more than 3.5, but going backwards would be confusing. If you want to give something before 3 a shot, then I suggest picking up most of the rules as they are, but sticking to some of the improvements that 3 made.

The biggest change (imo) from 2 to 3 was thaco/ac. I actually like thaco (yeah, I'm crazy) but the reverse AC thing would be insanely confusing to someone coming from 3 (because it was confusing to everyone already). If you were to want to use 2E books and stuff then I would suggest doing a simple conversion of thaco and ac over to the 3e system.

If I remember correctly, fighters thaco goes down 1 per level, thief 1 every 2, cleric 2 every 3 and mage 1 every 3. This would essentially mean BAB goes up at that rate. Then treat an ac of 10 as an ac of 10 and numbers lower than 10 would increase the ac that amount above 10 (0=20, -10 = 30). This seems like a lot of work, but trying to understand the THACO system is probably more work.

[Tvtyrant]

I still don't understand how 2E Hybrid classes work...

But I love the campaign settings from 2E. I actually buy them despite not owning core so I can translate them into 3.5 for fun and profit. It helps I played 2E as a kid with my BF at the time :P

But seriously; Spelljammer, Al-Qadim, Darksun, Planescape?? Who couldn't love those! And the modules! Especially the Vault of the Drow stuff; if not for their role in creating the modern Drow no one could not love that!

[Kurald Galain]

I still don't understand how 2E Hybrid classes work...

That's easy. If you're not human, pick two or three classes, divide the XP you get between them evenly, and level up in both. Only listed class combos are allowed.

If you are human, you can't do that; instead, you can at some point decide to go back to level one in a new class. You'll stop advancing in your old class and start advancing in your new, but you get XP penalties for using your old class abilities while your new class is a lower level.

In both cases, whichever class has the best hit points, saving throws, or attacks, you use that value. You do keep the restrictions of both classes, e.g. wizards can't wear armor even if multiclassed.

Both of these tend to be overpowered if you start a campaign at higher level and you're allowed to retroactively start as one of these.

[Matthew]

One thing to be careful of from 1E to 2E is the fact that some monsters received power boosts, giants and dragons being two examples. If you have the 2E MM though, you can update modules easily.

Some things like specialist mages will need to be taken into account as well, mostly from the perspective of wether you want NPCs encountered to be specialists.

This is true, but shouldn't be too big a problem. In second edition fighters start somewhat more powerful because of weapon specialisation, but when using first edition modules with second edition rules the changes in monster statistics will not usually be noticeable, but as SimperingToad says it is something to be aware of.

If I remember correctly, fighters thaco goes down 1 per level, thief 1 every 2, cleric 2 every 3 and mage 1 every 3. This would essentially mean BAB goes up at that rate. Then treat an ac of 10 as an ac of 10 and numbers lower than 10 would increase the ac that amount above 10 (0=20, -10 = 30). This seems like a lot of work, but trying to understand the THACO system is probably more work.

To be honest, converting THAC0 to BAB and descending AC to ascending AC is likely to be more trouble than it is worth because it is ingrained in the system and supplements. The players do not really need to know the THAC0 or AC of their characters, since most of the math in that respect is done by the game master [i.e. whether he adds armour class to the roll and compares to THAC0 or deducts armour class from THAC0 to find the hit number]. On the other hand, if the players want to add bigger numbers and the game master does not like THAC0 then they can always use the "21+ system", where they add their "fighter level" (or equivalent fighting ability, FA) to the roll and the game master compares the roll to 21 after taking AC into consideration.

D20 + Modifiers + AC => THAC0
D20 + Modifiers => THAC0 − AC
D20 + Modifiers + FA + AC => 21
D20 + Modifiers + FA => 21 − AC

Any one of those formulae should yield the same mathematical result.