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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    I have never gotten to play a spell thief prior to moving on to pathfinder. My current DM opened all completes + PF so my first though was "finally." I looked over the book, and he said I could combine my spells into int for it, which is nice bump. Down to two main stats.

    I'm wavering between straight spell thief and spell thief into arcane trickster. I don't know why, but the thought of stealing fireballs with fireballs sounds like so much fun.
    Fair amount of changes specific to his game below. The few that matter:
    Arcane armor training doesn't take an action (including mastery)
    TWF defense is combined with TWF, and gets an additional +1 for improved and greater TWF.
    Current weapon finesse is free. (including touch spells)
    New weapon finesse: You replace str with dex for damage on finesse weapons.
    Arcane Trickster: Only requires first level spells.
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    On weapons:
    All nonracial exotic weapons -> Martial Except for a bastard sword. It still takes training to use it one handed.
    Exotic weapon -> adds ability to current weapon from: Brace, Disarm, Trip, Reach can be added to polearms
    Double weapons cost 1.5x to enchant both ends with the same enchantment and 1x to MW

    On Armor:
    Adding the hide shield from sandstorm.
    Tower shield and hide shields are under heavy shield proficiency.
    You may shield bash with a towershield, and place a spike on it.

    On Races:
    Halforcs can choose the current race, or the beta version of their race
    Halflings lose the +1 to saves, and gain a feat
    Humans get to name a skill as a class skill
    Dwarves get +2 to CMD
    Elves get to roll automatically for secret doors within 10 feet
    Gnomes get darkvision to replace lowlight

    On feats:
    All feats that add 2 to 2 different skills are gone. Instead you can take a generic one that adds to any 2 you want(except for class bonuses, such as
    alertness from a wizard's familiar.
    Arcane armor training doesn't take an action (including mastery)
    Disruptive is 1/2 your BAB, instead of 4.
    Dodge and mobility are combined.
    Endurance and diehard are combined.
    Run and Fleet are combined.
    Improved counterspell will also allow using two of the same level spells.(same school, still)
    All save bumping feats are combined with the appropriate improved save bump feat.
    Cleave and vital strike are combined. Cleave and great cleave will work with the vital strike tree, but great cleave is still a seperate feat.
    Rapid reload works on all crossbows, no need to take per crossbow type.
    Strike back allows you to strike for each hit they do on you, up to your standard full attack.
    Toughness is back to beta version (3+1 per HD)
    TWF defense is combined with TWF, and gets an additional +1 for improved and greater TWF.
    Current weapon finesse is free. (including touch spells)
    New weapon finesse: You replace str with dex for damage on finesse weapons.
    Craft wonderous items: Any power than duplicates, or exceeds previous craft feats cost 50% more. I.E. An elixer as a potion of cure critical costs
    spell level * caster level * 25 * 1.5 Ask if this confuses you.
    Enlarge and widen spell are combined.


    On classes:
    Barbarian: Didn't look, as noone is barbarian. Feel free to suggest one if you want.
    Bard: Looks fine to me.
    Cleric: You may spend a second charge to add 1/2 your cleric level to a channel. Swift action.
    Druid: Needs something, not sure what yet.
    Fighter: Gains perception and stealth as class skills. They also get 4+int skills.
    Monk: I just hate this class. Replace with swordsage from Tome of Battle.
    Paladin: I'm looking at you smite, but I'm not sure how to change you.
    Ranger: Evasion at 4th. Imp at 12th. Trackless step (like druids) at 7th.
    Rogue: Adds half rogue level to CL if they take a caster class.
    Sorcerer: At 6th, 12th, and 18th the sorcerer can choose a metamagic feat they have. Using this feat no longer increases casting time.
    Wizard: Universalist: You can add int to damage for hand of the apprentice.
    Transmutation: You can sacrifice half the bonus (round as least benefits) to make it an insight bonus instead of enhancement.
    Necromancy: Your channel is based off int.
    Illusion: In addition to current powers you can use illusions againist targets normally immune. You can target 1/5 wizard levels times per
    day immune creatures and force them to percieve it as a nonimmune creature. (vs true seeing, undead, etc)
    Evocation: Intense spells instead adds +1 damage/die
    Enchantment: Same as Illusion
    Divination: 1/day you may add half your wizard level to a reflex save. You must decide to use this before rolling.
    (you may roll spellcraft first)
    Conjuration: 1/day you may ignore making concentration checks to maintaining a spell after damage.
    Abjuration: Resistance will stack with any other resistance to the same element.

    On PrC:
    Shadow Dancer: Gains a die of sneak attack on 3, 6 and 9. Shadow jump is a swift action, that doesn't end your turn.
    Pathfinder Chronicler: Gains 1/2 spell progression.
    Assassin: Gains rogue talents at 3, 6 and 9.
    Dragon Disciple: Dead caster progression levels give +1 CL. The +2 int is replaced with +2 (caster stat)
    Duelist: See feats, already better from that alone.
    Arcane Archer: Gains arcane strike as a bonus feat. (level 1)
    Arcane Trickster: Only requires first level spells.
    Mystic Theurge: You have to cast 2nd level spells on one side, and 1st level on the other. You may decide which way.
    Loremaster: Add your loremaster level to knowledge checks.
    Eldritch Knight: When you proc spell critical, you may use it as a free action. However you may not use your swift action to cast a spell.


    The group I run with is fairly low op, so I don't mind being unoptimized. However I do like having a fair bit of choice as far as actions go. Would straight ST be better? Do note that I can get into Arcane Trickster at 5th level, and the campaign ends at 15 so I can get the AT capstone prior to then. Sneak attack on AoE spells seems like a nice bonus for a class that trades SA for stuff.

    So I'm looking for suggestions / thoughts on this. Oh, my race is chosen: Tiefling with the infernal bastard trait. I give up darkness for a cantrip at will (mage hand for AT) and lose my resistances for +2 saving throw vs those elements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    I'm wavering between straight spell thief and spell thief into arcane trickster. I don't know why, but the thought of stealing fireballs with fireballs sounds like so much fun.
    Sadly, this is not possible. You have to sneak attack to steal a spell, you need an attack roll to sneak attack, fireball does not have an attack roll.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2011-01-08 at 01:05 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Last edited by BobVosh; 2011-01-08 at 12:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    They changed AT for PF:
    This is actually good if you can get multiple casters with the same fireball.

    May I interest you in a Spellthief 9/Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 2 (with Master Spellthief feat)? It's not super-optimized, but it's quite good. You get:
    • BAB 16
    • 5th level spells from Suel Arcanamach
    • 2nd level spells from Spellthief
    • Caster level 25 as Arcanamach and 13 as Spellthief.
    • You can ignore 10% (or was it 15%?) of arcane spell failure.
    • Tenacious Spells plus high CL means not worrying about Dispel Magic ever again
    • Abjurant Champion and Arcanamach's extended spells means buffing is very easy
    • Full Spellthieving

    If you don't mind not being able to steal 9th level spells, you could drop a level of Spellthief for one more level in something with full BAB. For added awesomeness, dual wield lightsabers flame blades.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    What would be the level 15 version of that build, as I assume that you don't level in the blocks it is in. We are only going that high.

    *edit* I forgot to mention, he gave rogue weapons to the ST as well.
    Last edited by BobVosh; 2011-01-08 at 01:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    What would be the level 15 version of that build, as I assume that you don't level in the blocks it is in. We are only going that high.
    Hm, a level 15 build gets trickier because of BAB issues.
    Something like Spellthief 4/XXX 3/Suel Arcanamach 3/Abjurant Champion 5 works, though, where XXX has full BAB (otherwise you wouldn't be able to squeeze Martial Arcanist in there, because Arcanamach requires BAB +6).
    Alternatively, Spellthief 8/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5 works as well. The gem here is Martial Arcanist + Master Spellthief to get a high caster level.
    Other good prestige classes for a Spellthief are Spellwarp Sniper and Unseen Seer. Something like Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Unseen Seer 4 is pretty solid, gaining maximum benefit from Master Spellthief. Of course, this is more of a Wizard build than a Spellthief build, though.
    The best thing about Spellthief is the Master Spellthief feat, I believe. And the best way to use it in core is with Abjurant Champion's Martial Arcanist, so I'd take advantage of that. I have a miniguide on it.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Woah. A guide recommending GSA. That blew my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Woah. A guide recommending GSA. That blew my mind.
    It's only halfway good with the whole +15 CL in 10 levels thing. If you can't get it (and the example of the ability contradicts the table), it's not worth it.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Despite the boost to Arcane Trickster in PF, I would recommend taking a look at Unseen Seer from Complete Mage. It works wonders with Master Spellthief and wizard levels, going Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X, generally finishing off with Arcane Trickster levels.

    If the PHB 2 is open for use, grab Hunter's Eye with your first advanced learning for extra CL/3 d6 sneak attack dice for the low, low cost of a swift action and a 2nd level spell slot. Use said dice to steal spells: profit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Is there a list of spells that don't have saves, and have attack rolls? Preferably ones with multiple attacks. Such as scorching ray.

    Basically the good sneak attack ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Is there a list of spells that don't have saves, and have attack rolls? Preferably ones with multiple attacks. Such as scorching ray.

    Basically the good sneak attack ones.
    I know such a list existed back at 339, but it could have been lost.

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Have you thought of Spellwarp Sniper? That would let you turn area spells into rays and sneak attack with them. It also fully progresses caster level and sudden raystrike stacks with sneak attack.

    There's a handy list of warp-able spells, sorted by whether they allow a save or not and if they have SR or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Another option is to look at the Sandman bard Alternate Class Features in the Advanced Player's Guide for Pathfinder. I've had fun making one of those, it plays a lot like a Spellthief-Beguiler... thing. Spawn? pretty fun though. you give up a lot of your party boosting buffs, and gain sneak attack, skill boosts, and spell stealing abilities.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Honestly, I would go straight spellthief, with maybe a dip in swordsage if your GM is cool with that sort of thing. Spellthieves actually have quite a lot of cool class features, and even with Master Spellthief, nothing really advances all of them in a way that I find terribly satisfactory. Sure, Master Spellthief lets you steal higher-level spells, but it doesn't let you hold more spell levels, so you don't get to use those higher-level spells—nor are you nearly as good at borrowing spells from friendly casters (if you're not a jerk about it, most friendly casters will let you nab one or two of their spells when you're in hostile territory, because you casting that spell is essentially giving them a free Quicken). Worse, though, you don't advance your ability to steal spell effects, which is my personal favorite spellthief ability (getting to essentially dispel your foe's buffs without a dispel check while simultaneously taking them for yourself? Delicious!). Steal spell-like ability also doesn't advance through Master Spellthief. Spellthieves do suffer some lack of build versatility because of how specific and how ill-supported their class features are, but if you want to actually be a spellthief, you pretty much have to just be a spellthief.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 23. Everyone is welcome! Wanna be an instant authority? Just come judge, even if it's your first time!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Sure, Master Spellthief lets you steal higher-level spells, but it doesn't let you hold more spell levels, so you don't get to use those higher-level spells
    All you need to max spellthieving is 9 levels of Spellthief, that's why I suggested it.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    While that's better than what most people suggest, that still doesn't help much if you want to steal more than one or two high-level spells (say, if you get in more than one attack on an opponent before you get the chance to burn off some of those spell levels, or if you want to keep some of them for later). Still, I am at least glad that someone recognizes that there's a few more limitations to Master Spellthief than just "OK, we turned Spellthief from a class into a feat, like we did with Tashalatora. Oh, and now your CL gets really, really wonky. Enjoy!"
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 23. Everyone is welcome! Wanna be an instant authority? Just come judge, even if it's your first time!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    While that's better than what most people suggest, that still doesn't help much if you want to steal more than one or two high-level spells
    Two words: Arcane Strike

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Let me amend: steal and cast more than one or two high-level spells. What's the point of stealing spells if you don't get to turn 'em against your opponents? You may as well just go with a generic Mage Slayer build. But anyway.

    That said, I do wish that spellthieves had more and better multiclass options. I really like them (both fluffwise and crunchwise), and I'm sad that they're so underpowered as a whole.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2011-01-09 at 02:44 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 23. Everyone is welcome! Wanna be an instant authority? Just come judge, even if it's your first time!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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    Default Re: Spelltheif (3.P, some house rules)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Let me amend: steal and cast more than one or two high-level spells. What's the point of stealing spells if you don't get to turn 'em against your opponents? You may as well just go with a generic Mage Slayer build. But anyway.
    Well, I disagree. If you got to full-attack and steal 3 9th-level spells, chances are the target is already dead anyway. If he isn't, you should probably just hope one of those 9th level spells might allow you to run away very fast as a swift action, because when his turn is up, you'll most likely die. If you did kill him (and with Arcane Strike, this becomes a lot more possible - hit, steal 9th level spell, burn for arcane strike, hit at +9 for an extra +9d4 damage, steal another spell, burn it for arcane strike, hit again at +9 for an extra +18d4 damage), use the 9th level spell you stole to kill someone else next round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    That said, I do wish that spellthieves had more and better multiclass options. I really like them (both fluffwise and crunchwise), and I'm sad that they're so underpowered as a whole.
    I agree they should have more options, but I don't find them underpowered. I just find most stuff at higher tiers very overpowered. I like tier 4 as a balance point.

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