[dnd 3.5e] Renaissance/Industrial weapons?

[Kaeso]

You don't have a choice about going around that corner where there might be someone waiting.

Spoiler

Show

This is is why musketeers were usually equiped with a saber or some other kind of sword, and even the soldiers of the napoleontic era had bayonets on their guns, which were widly used until WWI (when a gun could fire so fast there was hardly any need for worrying about melee). If I'm correct there are still some modern guns that have bayonets though. IMHO a musket or pistol shouldn't be strictly better than a sword (there were many renaissance/industrial era generals (like Suvorov or Napoléon) who preferred melee combat over ranged combat) but it's pretty sad that they're worse than longbows.

Anyway, I think there's a way of making the use of pistols worthwhile. The DMG states that the pistol takes a standard action to reload, but does it require two hands? If not, a rogue could fire two pistols, retreat to reload, and fire again.

[dsmiles]

This is is why musketeers were usually equiped with a saber or some other kind of sword, and even the soldiers of the napoleontic era had bayonets on their guns, which were widly used until WWI (when a gun could fire so fast there was hardly any need for worrying about melee). If I'm correct there are still some modern guns that have bayonets though. IMHO a musket or pistol shouldn't be strictly better than a sword (there were many renaissance/industrial era generals (like Suvorov or Napoléon) who preferred melee combat over ranged combat) but it's pretty sad that they're worse than longbows.

They're only worse than longbows because the writers didn't want us to accidentally spill technology on their fantasy. The Iron Kingdoms sourcebook has much better firearms.

Anyway, I think there's a way of making the use of pistols worthwhile. The DMG states that the pistol takes a standard action to reload, but does it require two hands? If not, a rogue could fire two pistols, retreat to reload, and fire again.

The rules may not state it, but have you ever seen somebody reload a flintlock pistol with one hand? It takes about a minute, and that's for a trained professional.

[Achernar]

Of course, guns actually did increase the lethality of combat and render armor all but useless. They also massively changed the way tactics worked. Which is fine if that's what you want to do with D&D. But if they're a common weapon, expect some significant changes. If you're in a situation where the opponent has guns and you don't (like we were, because we hadn't been able to buy any), you're not going to do well.

Personally, I don't like guns in your standard dungeon crawl. How often do you have cover available anyway? You don't have a choice about going around that corner where there might be someone waiting.

That actually sounds pretty interesting as a tactical challenge. I like difficult combats.

Also: RE: Less melee combat in WWI: World War I saw heavy use of stilettos ("Trench Knives") and Sword bayonets due to the close-combat nature of raiding an enemy trench. It was often more effective and expedient to stab the person in front of you than to shoot them (unless you had a pistol instead of an unwieldly long-barreled rifle). I'm not sure how much "convenience" plays into an RPG, though. It's a lot easier to use longarms in close quarters with no facing rules... until someone grapples you, I guess...

[Kaeso]

The rules may not state it, but have you ever seen somebody reload a flintlock pistol with one hand? It takes about a minute, and that's for a trained professional.

That's a good point... In that case, would rapid reload be worth it for a musket? 1d12 damage with a move action to reload at a range of 120 ft. doesn't sound too shabby.

[dsmiles]

That's a good point... In that case, would rapid reload be worth it for a musket? 1d12 damage with a move action to reload at a range of 120 ft. doesn't sound too shabby.

It's worse than the Iron Kingdoms stats, IIRC. I'm AFB, but those sound like the stats from the DMG. It's not too horribly bad, if you're going for the lower end of firearms technology. High-end firearms technology should use the IK books, plus IK has more variety, and classes, skills and feats specifically for firearms.

[WarKitty]

That actually sounds pretty interesting as a tactical challenge. I like difficult combats.

Also: RE: Less melee combat in WWI: World War I saw heavy use of stilettos ("Trench Knives") and Sword bayonets due to the close-combat nature of raiding an enemy trench. It was often more effective and expedient to stab the person in front of you than to shoot them (unless you had a pistol instead of an unwieldly long-barreled rifle). I'm not sure how much "convenience" plays into an RPG, though. It's a lot easier to use longarms in close quarters with no facing rules... until someone grapples you, I guess...

Yeah. It depends on the group too. Our group tends to be highly invested in characters and doesn't appreciate them dying to some mook with a gun.

[EccentricCircle]

firearms are commonplace in several of my campaigns,
we use the rules from D20 Past as they fit well with standard 3.5 and are better than the DMG weapons although those are legal too.
one thing to note is that D20 past doesn't use money, but multiplying the purchase DC by 10 works fairly well for converting to gold so long as you only do it for things on the weapon and armour tables and use a pinch of salt. (it doesn't work for the planes and airships unfortunately...)

[Kaeso]

Yeah. It depends on the group too. Our group tends to be highly invested in characters and doesn't appreciate them dying to some mook with a gun.

I think level 1, maybe 2, are the only levels where you can really die because of some mook with a gun. A musket does 1d12 damage without any adjustements, a greatsword does 2d6+(2*str), so the latter would be deadlier at pretty much any level as long as you have a strength score of at least 12.

[Dead_Jester]

I have to agree with dsmiles here, the IK stuff is definitely the best when it comes to published stuff. Of course, if you search through the early No Quarter (Privateer Press' version of Dungeon and Dragon mags) then you can find the good stuff like repeating rifles that are actually usable, revolvers, handcannons that don't make you cry because of the reload time, portable artillery, etc.

Of course, reload speed reducing abilities are nice, and guns work really well when you can reload a full revolver mag as a move action. Of course, it starts to get silly when you enchant your triple-barreled repeater with the splitting enchantment (on every barrel, so it's really expensive), but then again, you were already wielding a triple barreled repeater ...

[Achernar]

Yeah. It depends on the group too. Our group tends to be highly invested in characters and doesn't appreciate them dying to some mook with a gun.

I've had a few close calls with less damage. A highwayman (Rogue 3) with a mundane club almost killed my friend's level 4 tiefling wizard in the first session I ever DM'd. I still can't believe no-one spotted him, but one rogue got a hit in with a heavy crossbow (1d10, he didn't get SA), and then this guy almost bashed the mage's brains in with a critical club hit. At 4 remaining HP, he almost died to a mook with a chair leg.

I think it really depends on how squishy the party is, and whether or not the party has a healer. I found the damage done by melee weapons to be a much bigger risk to the party's continued well-being.

However, my big question here is, what is Iron Kingdoms and where can I find me some?

[Dead_Jester]

However, my big question here is, what is Iron Kingdoms and where can I find me some?

Iron Kingdoms is a D&D campaign setting produced by Privateer Press (the company behind WarmaHordes for you miniatures enthusiasts). It's a steampunk setting with good fluff, a big focus on guns and mechs (that they call jacks). All in all, it's a pretty epic setting, if you don't mind moving away from the traditional high-fantasy for a while.

It might be pretty hard to find in print, but if I remember correctly, it (and the introductory adventure The Witchfire Trilogy) were made available as pdf's at one point.

[Greenish]

They're only worse than longbows because the writers didn't want us to accidentally spill technology on their fantasy. The Iron Kingdoms sourcebook has much better firearms.

So people keep saying, but the ones I've seen cited still suffered from heavy reload times, without being noticeable stronger than much of the other stuff.

[Dead_Jester]

So people keep saying, but the ones I've seen cited still suffered from heavy reload times, without being noticeable stronger than much of the other stuff.

Which is why you have to get the early No Quarters that have all the great guns. Also, they might suffer from long reload times, but people usually rule that rapid reload also works for guns, and that it stacks with abilities that improve reload speeds, so that any gunslinger worth his salt is still reloading as a free action.

Also, quad barreled snipers that can fire all barrels with a single attack (even better when you automatically threaten a critical at x6 crit multiplier). Now put splitting on it for the lulz.