Advice for an archer? [3.5]

[Ferrin]

An elf archer to be precise, didn't play d&d a lot yet, so I'm looking for advice on playing it and with the build so far. I'm starting out as a ranger and taking several fighter levels for the extra feats and bab. I just want to be a good long range archer and decent scout without using any magic.

Alternative class features used are: Ranger without spellcasting from CW, Elf ranger from RotW and Companion Familiar from the Cityscape web enhancement.

Wood Elf Ranger4
18 Strength
18 Dexterity
12 Constitution
10 Wisdom
12 Inteligence
8 Charisma
(These stats are with racial modifiers and the +1 from level 4)

Spoiler

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1; Ranger1: Point Blank Shot, Track, Favored Enemy:[Humanoid(elf)]
2; R2: Rapid Shot
3; R3: Precise Shot, Endurance
4; R4: Companion Familiar:(Cityscape, WEB) Hawk.

5; R4/Fighter1: Weapon Focus: Longbow
6; R4/F2: Woodland Archer, Mountain Warrior
7; R5/F2: Favored Enemy:[Humanoid(Human)]
8; R5/F3: -
9; R6/F3: Multishot, Improved Rapid Shot, Faster Movement
10; R6/F4: Weapon Specialization: Longbow
11; R6/F5: -
12; R6/F6: Ranged Weapon Mastery, Improved Precise Shot
13; R6/F7: -
14; R6/F8: Far Shot
15; R6/F8/Cragtop Archer1: Adept Climber, Farsight, Quick Reconnoiter
16; R6/F8/CA2: Strike from Above
17; R6/F8/CA3: Arcing Shot
18; R6/F8/CA4: Horizon Shot, Improved Critical: Longbow
19; R6/F9/CA4: -
20; R6/F10/CA4: Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Play Pathfinder. Pick up the Deadly Aim feat. (basically, power attack with a bow) realize that this alone makes archery worth it, unlike in 3.5 or 3.0.

Alternately, convince your DM to let you have it. Because honestly, without it, archery sucks and falls flat on its face. Still better than a TWF ranger maybe, but not overly much.

[Ferrin]

Play Pathfinder. Pick up the Deadly Aim feat. (basically, power attack with a bow) realize that this alone makes archery worth it, unlike in 3.5 or 3.0.

Alternately, convince your DM to let you have it. Because honestly, without it, archery sucks and falls flat on its face. Still better than a TWF ranger maybe, but not overly much.

Power attack for archery? I like it!

Is archery really that bad without it though?

[Eldariel]

Archery Handbook should have something useful for you. In short tho:

- Get 1 level of Barbarian; Whirling Frenzy granting you an extra attack is v. good and you can take Extra Rage to get it a few times per day.
- Knowledge Devotion + Education is v. good.
- 4 Fighter-levels is all you'll ever want; Ranged Weapon Mastery is the sweet spot for that class. Then you want to get into something with more skills, feats and so on.
- 3.0 had few good prestige classes for this style of an Archer: Peerless Archer [Silver Marches], Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild] & Order of the Bow Initiate [Sword & Fist; not to be confused with the PoS in Complete Warrior]. See if you could use them; Peerless Archer in particular is incredible if you can't get Deadly Aim (though you definitely want that feat).

EDIT: Oh, and everything is better with Tome of Battle. Warblade/Eternal Blade Archer is very workable so if that's an option, I'd take a look.

[Tvtyrant]

No, it has its bonuses. A Ranger gets more shots a turn then a fighter does swings, and you can apply strength damage to the arrows. Its not an optimal form of combat, but it gets more full round attacks then a melee due to not having to move to targets. The big issues are that you have to be MAD to do strength damage and hit with the arrows, and you are extremely susceptible to damage reduction, which is very common in higher levels.

Basically you need to max Dex and Str, find points for Con and Wis, etc. Its almost like a monk. However if you make a Cleric archer with the Zen archery feat you can hit based on wisdom, and take a dip in ranger for the strength to arrow damage, then use the normal self buffs to blast thein enemies to bits.

[Saint GoH]

The problem with archery is a reliable source of bonus damage. With a mighty [+4] Composite bow you get your full 18 str bonus as additional bonus damage to the d8 a longbow does.

Compare that to the +6 damage bonus a fighter or barbarian gets for wielding a 2-handed greatsword, which has a higher base damage at 2d6.

Also, melee'ers get Power Attack, which has feats to enhance it so eventually you are trading -1 AC or AB for +3 damage, all up to your base attack bonus (-10 AC for a +30 damage at level 10?)

Archery is fun but unless you have a reliable way of gaining bonus damage it will seriously flag behind. As such, look into scout (CW I believe) that allows you to get bonus damage from moving. Since you are already ranger I believe there is a PrC called Wilderness Ranger (or somesuch) that combines ranger and scout levels for skirmish.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Power attack for archery? I like it!

Is archery really that bad without it though?

Generally, yes it is that bad. once you start running into things with DR, your arrow damage just drops. Deadly Aim really helps with that.

Yes, you can just stand in the back and get more full attacks than fighters, but it is quite MAD. difficult to do with point buy, means you have to get lucky with rolls.

[BiblioRook]

Simple advice, but something easy to forget. Keep things like Silver and Cold Iron arrows on hand. They aren't that hard to get and you may not need them that often, but like was mentioned damage reduction is really annoying for archers and you will be glad you have them.

Also if you are desperate for extra damage and are willing to burn a feat, I suppose you could always take a dip into Exotic Weapon proficiency to get a Greatbow (d10 damage). I forget what book that's from however.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"Archery is fun but unless you have a reliable way of gaining bonus damage it will seriously flag behind. As such, look into scout (CW I believe) that allows you to get bonus damage from moving. Since you are already ranger I believe there is a PrC called Wilderness Ranger (or somesuch) that combines ranger and scout levels for skirmish."

its not a PRC. its a feat called Swift hunter, from.... Complete Adventurer, maybe? I think.

[Saint GoH]

its not a PRC. its a feat called Swift hunter, from.... Complete Adventurer, maybe? I think.

It is a feat AND a PrC... sort of.

Swift Hunter allows Ranger and Scout bonuses to stack, the Highland Stalker PrC from Complete adventurer requires

Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Listen 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks, Survival 8
ranks.
Feats: Track.
Special: Skirmish or sneak attack class feature

So its sort of a ranger/scout thing. It grants some nifty ranger features as well as increased skirmish damage.

[Eldariel]

It is a feat AND a PrC... sort of.

Swift Hunter allows Ranger and Scout bonuses to stack, the Highland Stalker PrC from Complete adventurer requires

Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Listen 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks, Survival 8
ranks.
Feats: Track.
Special: Skirmish or sneak attack class feature

So its sort of a ranger/scout thing. It grants some nifty ranger features as well as increased skirmish damage.

However, Skirmish is limited to 60' range even with work and so is not applicable here. Really, the only reasonable ways to deal damage at long range is either volley or Sniper + Deepwood Sniper. Luckily damage reduction can be bypassed with either Force-bow or Eternal Blade's level 2 ability.

Or just Holy Bow + proper arrows. Really, the great thing about bows is that it's so easy to keep all the materials and special properties around. Especially goes for Bane Arrows!

[true_shinken]

its not a PRC. its a feat called Swift hunter, from.... Complete Adventurer, maybe? I think.

Complete Scoundrel.
Maybe he's thinking of the Highland Stalker; this PRC has full BAB and skirmish.

[Ferrin]

I don't like the scout because of it's reliance to be within 30-ft of the opponent. Thanks for the advice so far, going to see how I can squeeze some things in.

[Saint GoH]

OOOO TC wants a good long range archer... yeah skirmish is severely limited by its 60ft range (60' is long range compared to melee range....right?)

[BiblioRook]

Also with skirmish you have to move around to use it, which not only might cut into getting a full attack in... also makes you look rather silly if you are a sniper hundreds of feet from the action. Makes me think of an OCD archer.

"Snipe, walk around in a circle, snipe, walk around in a circle..."


Edit: Skirmish is usually 30'', but I think there's a feat that extends it. Not that really going to matter in this case.

[Chilingsworth]

Get a force bow (Magic Item Compendium Pg. 35) Also, consider just taking fighter levels: You'll get all the archery feats, you can use them in any kind of armor you want, and ranged weapon mastery (from the PBH2 and requires fighter 18) is pretty sweet. Also, get an item that duplicates the spell arrowmind (spell compendium Pg. 15) or at least gives it times/day.

Also, I've partied with pure fighter archers with force bows twice, both times they kick sass.

[Eldariel]

Edit: Skirmish is usually 30'', but I think there's a feat that extends it. Not that really going to matter in this case.

The feat is called "Ranged Skirmisher" and extends the range to 60'; something I covered. That said, it's far from enough for real long range combat.

Get a force bow (Magic Item Compendium Pg. 35) Also, consider just taking fighter levels: You'll get all the archery feats, you can use them in any kind of armor you want, and ranged weapon mastery (from the PBH2 and requires fighter 18) is pretty sweet.

Thing is, with pure Fighter you lose out on:
- Extra attack from Barbarian
- Extra skill points
- Movement speed bonus & al.
- Critical multipliers, Power Shot & co. from 3.0 PRCs

What Fighter gains after level 4 is:
- +1 to hit & +2 damage spaced over 8 levels
- 3 other feats (before 14)
that's about it. You don't want heavier armor with an Archer's Dex anyways and Fighter just doesn't really get anything worth your while after level 4. One feat per two levels with no skillpoints (which means no Knowledge Devotion & no Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen to go with archery) and no class features is just...meh.

[Cieyrin]

There is an alternative involving Swift Hunter that can make you long range sniper without magic, involving an ACF for Scout from Dragon 346, fittingly called Sniper. Full Round action for a single attack with skirmish damage at any range.

The issues with this are many fold, as many will tell you, between being limited to one shot, much like the CW's OotBI, where the damage is really in getting off volleys and whether Swift Hunter will actually advance the Sniper ability with Ranger levels or if other precision damage boosters will work with it. At least you're not limited by range, which is rarely a great thing, anyways, since there's no guarantee you can make your range work for you.

[Ferrin]

There is an alternative involving Swift Hunter that can make you long range sniper without magic, involving an ACF for Scout from Dragon 346, fittingly called Sniper. Full Round action for a single attack with skirmish damage at any range.

The issues with this are many fold, as many will tell you, between being limited to one shot, much like the CW's OotBI, where the damage is really in getting off volleys and whether Swift Hunter will actually advance the Sniper ability with Ranger levels or if other precision damage boosters will work with it. At least you're not limited by range, which is rarely a great thing, anyways, since there's no guarantee you can make your range work for you.

Dealing 5d6 + weapon damage isn't something I'd even consider as a full-round action. It deals less damage then two shots at that level.

[Cieyrin]

Dealing 5d6 + weapon damage isn't something I'd even consider as a full-round action. It deals less damage then two shots at that level.

I did say it had many issues. I didn't say it was ideal, the only thing going for it is it's precision damage at whatever range you feel like and straight scout is probably not the best way of maximizing that damage, anyways.

[Lord.Sorasen]

An elf archer to be precise, didn't play d&d a lot yet, so I'm looking for advice on playing it and with the build so far. I'm starting out as a ranger and taking several fighter levels for the extra feats and bab. I just want to be a good long range archer and decent scout without using any magic.

Alternative class features used are: Ranger without spellcasting from CW, Elf ranger from RotW and Companion Familiar from the Cityscape web enhancement.

You might want to consider the Complete Champion's non-spellcasting ranger variant. More bonus feats is always nice, and as far as fluff goes, it'll at the least feel less magical than the CW version.

[Re'ozul]

If your DM allows homebrew, ask him wether you can play this guy. It is an archery only class, but rocks at that.

[Ferrin]

Completely forgot about the CC's spell-less ranger variant, thanks!

I like the Archer class, going to see what I can do with it. It's just pretty vague about precision damage and range and whatnot, 30ft + 10ft/2 levels for the extra 1d8's precision damage is my guess, but he should have made that clear.

I really like it though, especialy the Hail of Arrows, 15x150ft range(Greatbow with ranged weapon mastery) is... a lot of targets. On second thought, that ability might need to be changed.