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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    I have four critters that need critique. The Black Dragon, the Skeroloth and the Nycaloth and Mezzoloth, which I recently revised and linked to.
    Frog in the playground.

    My homebrewer's extended signature.

    I have Str 5!

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Wall of text attacks! CRITS!

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Ugh... please. The Warlock has proven that unlimited uses per day of something isn't broken. By the level you're getting it at, most combats are going to last 2-3 rounds anyways.
    Just a caveat: What Warlock proved is that unlimited uses per day is not inherently broken, when combat provides the limiting factor of available actions and useful targets. At-will abilities which can usefully be applied outside of that context can have their implications seriously changed by becoming at-will. As an example, x/day Stone Shape is useful. At-will Stone Shape rebuilds dungeons and castles to your liking.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Zemro's Avatar

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    I feel the Thorn is very close to completion and only requires one more council approval. So if either of the active council members would pay it a glance, it'd be much appreciated.

    Meanwhile I'll offer some commentary on other unfinished creations. If I don't comment on a specific ability or feature of the class, assume that I saw no problems with it.

    Troll
    Spoiler
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    Troll Body: The Troll loses all other racial bonuses and gains Giant traits, granting it low light vision. Trolls are initially medium sized creatures with a base movement speed of 30', possessing two claw attacks that deliver 1d4 + Str mod damage each and natural armor equal to their con modifier.

    Trolls speak either Common or Giant as their starting language and gain additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.
    Nothing wrong here, just wanted to comment that I like that you've noted languages as that's good to have and is sometimes skipped.

    Furor: Starting at first level, the Troll may throw itself at a foe with reckless abandon, claws or weapon flailing, heedless of the blows he himself suffers. The Troll may, as part of a full attack, deliver an additional blow using its highest attack bonus, with a -2 penalty. A Troll delivering a claw attack in this manner suffers only a -1 penalty to hit. Using Furor provokes an attack of opportunity from the victim, but only a maximum of one such attack of opportunity a round. A successful attack of opportunity does not interrupt or interfere with the Furor.

    After any successful hit with Furor, a Troll of 2HD or more may elect to deliver another Furor attack at a further, cumulative -2 (-1 for claw) penalty. As such, a Troll would suffer a -2 for the first Furor attack, a -4 for the second, a -6 for a third, and so on. This process may be repeated to deliver a number of Furor attacks up to or equal to the Troll's HD, with the caveat that if one Furor attack misses, they all miss. Non-furor attacks are unaffected, and do damage independently of whether the Furor misses.

    Finally, starting at 2HD, a Troll may deliver a series of Furor attacks alongside a standard action attack, but is limited to one extra attack for every two HD it has. This involves the same cumulative penalties and provokes the attack of opportunity, as described above.
    I was unsure of Furor until I noticed the 'if one misses they all do' clause, which does seem like a nice balancing aspect. I'm still a bit unsure, as it does seem to provide more extra attacks the other methods of gaining them. However, I'm probably thinking too much of it, the balancing aspect should take care of that,

    Mend Flesh: Starting at first level, the Troll may step back from combat to crudely smear or pinch its flesh together, prompting muscle and warty hide to join together again. Mend Flesh is a standard action, in which the Troll heals itself of damage equal to its HD or its Con modifier, whichever is higher. This is a supernatural ability, and does not count as a spell or magical power for the purposes of healing nonlethal damage (In short, you do not heal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the lethal damage healed).

    This may be performed a number of times a day equal to the Troll's Con modifier. In the event that the Troll suffers fire or acid damage, this ability becomes unusable for 1d4 rounds.

    Starting at 3HD, if the Troll is damaged and unable to take a standard action (such as if it is unconscious, stunned, dying or dazed), it will automatically use Mend Flesh as a free action.

    At 9HD, the Troll may use Mend Flesh as a move action.

    At 15HD, the Troll heals twice the amount.
    I like this ability for healing, I like it a lot. It has a good feel to it, and deals nicely with the healing flavour of trolls.

    Gnaw: Starting at second level, the Troll gains Bite as a secondary natural attack, dealing 1d4+Str damage. Further, a Troll may elect to forego claw and weapon attacks in a full attack. In doing so, focusing only on the bite (which remains a secondary natural attack), a Troll that successfully hits and damages the foe tears a chunk of flesh from the victim, dealing bonus damage equal to the victim's total HD. (ie. a 20 HD foe would take 20 bonus damage)
    I'm kinda worried about this being an underwhelming attack option. While the damage bonus is nice, you're not going to get very many attacks with it, to the point that it seems using claw and weapon attacks will always be the better option for your initial attacks.

    It does have a bit of promise with furor, but it's going to be stacking penalties fast, making that a bit risky. The mechanic is neat, I'm unsure about effectiveness.

    Excision: At fourth level, a Troll that would fall victim to physical maladies (effects that would require a Fortitude saving throw) can tear and claw away their own flesh to prevent the effect from setting in properly. Doing so is a free action, declared as one fails a Fortitude Save. The Troll deals its own claw damage (typically nonlethal) to itself and adds the damage total to the result of the saving throw.

    For example, a Troll achieves a result of 10 against a DC 18 petrifaction attack. It opts to claw at the parts of its body that are turning to stone, dealing 1d4+6 damage to itself. Rolling a 4 for damage, the Troll effectively deals 10 points of nonlethal damage to itself, adding +10 to the result of the save. With a new effective result of 20, the effect is averted.
    Limiting to a single save is good, and makes sense, however it does seem to make getting a bonus to saves a little to easy. It's better at the lower levels, but at higher levels with it being a free action and the healing from regeneration, the sustained damage seems to me to have little opportunity cost.

    Tumescent Recovery: At fourth level, the Troll may enhance its regeneration for short periods of time, healing less mortal wounds within heartbeats of their occurrence. Activating Tumescent Recovery is a swift action, and grants the effects for the duration of one round. For the duration, any time the Troll sustains damage that is not an attack made as part of a standard or full-round action, or a spell with the Troll as an explicit target, the Troll gains 1d{closest value to Con mod, rounding down} hitpoints. This includes but is not limited to attacks of opportunity, area of effect damage, environmental damage, falling damage and ongoing effects on the Troll. Tumescent recovery is usable once a day per 2HD, but the effect has the same restrictions on use as Mending Flesh (It suffers the same 1d4 round restriction on use after taking fire damage) and the effect ends early if the Troll suffers fire or acid damage. Healing through Tumescent Recovery does not heal an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
    I unfortunately have no suggestions on the matter, but it did take a bit of reading to properly process the ability. Perhaps some wording could be simplified or cleaned up? (I understand completely how it works now, it just took a bit when initially reading the class)

    Overall, I think a much better class to play and doesn't look like it will require much more work in order to be finished


    Hrm, didn't have as much time right now as I thought I would. I shall return later today and hopefully comment on some more classes.
    Homebrew Monster Classes:
    Arcadian Avenger|Thorn|Marrash|Justice Archon

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    That is obscene. Wisdom is a dump stat. You're more likely to have -1 from core stats.
    Geting Cha, Int or Con to Will saves is just one feat away tough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Also, why would you have a constant owl's wisdom? Or protection from evil?
    Cheap buffs, easily spammable at higher levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    And Iron Will is generally lauded as a mediocre feat. Oh, and the periapt of iron will is just kindof silly.
    You can get it with 2000 GP and an Yutulogh's hole tough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    So, considering that most people won't pump their will save to that extent, and considering that this is supposed to be on par with a 9th level spell, I'm going to change the DC to (10+1/2 HD+Highest ability score modifier). Then the mature adult red dragon will have its save DC be in the mid 30s.
    I'm no monster balance specialist, but as far as player optimization goes, that's really easy to make. It's not a "Save or lose", it's a "Just lose". And that's tier 1 level right there, wich I believe you're trying to stay away from.

    +11 Base+10 either Cha or Con to Will (trough feats), +5 Resistance, +2 Iron Will from Otlyugh's hole (2000 GP), +2 Protection from Evil, +1 Luckstone (or something else) and you only fail on a 1.

    Plus most "Save or Die" effects can normally be stoped by immunities (death ward, freedom of movement, mind blank, ect), but I can't recall a single spell, class feature, or anything that could grant immunity to that power.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Otyugh hole is cheese, first and foremost.
    Secondly, eh, it's a WIP. I've been looking at ways to change it and make it effective while still keeping the same idea.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Otyugh hole is cheese, first and foremost.
    So let me see if I get this straight

    +2 To will saves for 2000 GP= cheese

    Spamming Greater Shaddow Conjuration (wich includes infinite Wall of Iron for infinite gold, infinite faster Planar Binding for infinite powerfull minions, infinite summon monster VI or lower for buff spamming)= not cheese.

    I'm missing something here. How can you make quite versatile 7th level and 8th level spells spammable, but you consider geting +2 to Will saves for 2000 GP is cheese?
    Last edited by Megawizard; 2011-01-30 at 06:17 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Gorgondantess's Avatar

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Megawizard View Post
    So let me see if I get this straight

    +2 To will saves for 2000 GP= cheese
    In a word? Yes. I prefer to think of it as "2000 gp for bonus feat", which is certainly cheese.

    Spamming Greater Shaddow Conjuration (wich includes infinite Wall of Iron for infinite gold, infinite faster Planar Binding for infinite powerfull minions, infinite summon monster VI or lower for buff spamming)= not cheese.
    That is going to be rectified. Like I've said multiple times, it is in no way a finished product.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Retired Mod in the Playground Retired Moderator
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Megawizard View Post
    So let me see if I get this straight

    +2 To will saves for 2000 GP= cheese

    Spamming Greater Shaddow Conjuration (wich includes infinite Wall of Iron for infinite gold, infinite faster Planar Binding for infinite powerfull minions, infinite summon monster VI or lower for buff spamming)= not cheese.

    I'm missing something here. How can you make quite versatile 7th level and 8th level spells spammable, but you consider geting +2 to Will saves for 2000 GP is cheese?
    The reason Otyugh hole is suspect is that it's not about the mechanical benefits so much as what you really gain. Iron Will is a prerequisite for a number of prestige classes or other feats...but no one wants to burn one of their few feats on Iron Will to get the other thing. Cash is usually readily available and at higher levels 2000gp is a drop in the bucket.

    ---

    If someone wants to review the Dwarf Ancestor I'd appreciate it. Hyudra has gone over it extensively but I feel like she and I are at an impasse. New thoughts and observations would be appreciated.
    "We have sent many to Hell, to smooth our way," said I, "and we are standing yet and holding blades. What more?"

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Okay, so I have some time to go over the Pseudonatural Creature's invocations. I'm going to assume a level 6 entry, since that seems to be the most obvious way to do it.

    Least Invocations: These are to be considered as gotten at ECL6.
    Spoiler
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    Implexsion: Basically Shatter with some salvage value. Most warlocks pick this up at first level. It's a nice utility, that's about it. No real complaint.

    Dread Curse Of A*******: First off, the "A*******" makes me imagine the creature is yelling "A***HOLE" to inflict massive confusion on his foes, but that's my own personal damage. Moving on from that, this is pretty powerful right when you get it, which I guess is supposed to be okay because if you use it your partymates are hosed? Whatever.

    All Awareness: Nice bonus, not that big. No real complaint.

    Many Voiced, Things Man Was Not Meant To Know: These are pretty much standard skill invocations, although it would be cleaner if they gave the same size bonus.


    Lesser Invocations: These are to be considered as gotten at ECL7.
    Spoiler
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    Twitch: +10 to move speed but you can't run or charge. +3 to initiative, +4 to Listen, -1 to all attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and AC. I don't mean to be rude, but did you actually consider the effects of fatigue? The bonus-action option is nice, but on the whole I consider this invocation to be more bane than boon.

    Realigned Gravity: Flavorful and useful. The speed is pretty high, but it's not a dealbreaker by a long shot. I like this one.

    Summon Lesser Warp Elemental: Impossible to evaluate without Warp Elemental stats.

    Shadowy Tentacles: Hooboy. The thing is, ability damage is powerful. Ability damage without a save is powerful. Ability damage without a save, over a fairly large AoE, with one of the best battlefield control effects in this level range applied as a free bonus? Yeahhh. This is without getting into the question of whether you can stack multiple Black Tentacles over the same area. This is a win button against humanoid enemies and quite a lot of nonhumanoids. The only time you wouldn't spam this is when you're facing the "colossal with ludicrous grapple score" enemies...

    Improved Dread Curse Of Algernon: ...which is when you use this, because those guys tend to have unimpressive Will saves and Wisdom scores. Assuming you don't mind that you're destroying your allies, of course.

    Ability damage takes down enemies fast, especially when you can tune it to their weakness, and double-especially when it's resisted with the same score it damages - like, say, a grapple that drains Strength or a Will save against Wisdom damage.


    Greater Invocations: these come online at level 11.
    Spoiler
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    Ego Explosion: Basically, this is a save or die that's harder to optimize. Enemies with high Charisma tend to be the sort with high Will saves. This doesn't jump out at me as broken, although I could be wrong. Probably should be mind-affecting, though - it doesn't make any sense for it not to be.

    Y'Nachtal's Wail: Moderate damage, save-or-suck and you die if you fail two different saves in a row. Doesn't seem like a big problem to me at these levels other than the whole "party unfriendly" thing.

    Summon Greater Warp Elemental: Can't be evaluated without Warp Elemental stats.

    Flash Implexsion: Keeps an old invocation useful by cutting out most of its action cost. You'll probably be spamming this a lot, just for lack of anything better to do with your swifts by default.

    Eldritch Tentacles: See criticism of Shadowy Tentacles, and add "save every round or die" to the list - although obviously you don't use this on an enemy you plan to loot.


    Eldritch Invocations: These come online at ECL 17.
    Spoiler
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    Subjective Reality: This is going to be your first eldritch invocation, because it's actually two invocations at once and they're both ridiculously powerful.

    So, hey, remember what I said earlier in the thread about how there are in fact some powers where at-will changes their nature entirely? Greater Shadow Conjuration is one of them. Actually, it's about forty of them. You know what's awesome? Being able to spit out ten Trumpet Archons per minute who will all stick around for several days and cast as 14th-level clerics. Or Efreeti, if you want to jump straight to the part where you get a billion Wishes. You will need someone to draw your summoning circle for you before you can do this, but you can probably pay him in Wishes.

    So I read some of the discussion of Subjective Reality's save-or-goodbye application, and you seemed to think that wisdom is a dump stat and nobody would tool their Will save that high. The thing is, when you can use your Will save as the attack roll for a no-save annihilation attack, it's no longer a dump stat and people can and will optimize their Will save if they expect to have a chance to use this. What's more, since this is a catch-up class that automatically brings you up to par when you come in, there's little reason not to spend your first five levels building for a high Will save if you reasonably expect to ever get eldritch access. Or, if you don't feel like that, you could just dip one level of warblade or swordsage in your first five, get Moment of Perfect Mind, and pick up Concentration-boosting items when you get to the high levels to have a Win Button at very little cost.


    Portal Rend: Save every round or gone forever. Powerful, and it would be potentially pushing it except that you only get two Eldritch Invocations and you've already taken Subjective Reality.

    Summon True Warp Elemental: Cannot be evaluated without Warp Elemental stats but frankly I'll be boggled if it even holds a candle by comparison.

    True Dread Curse Of Applebee: Whoops! Everyone's mind just fell out. Possibly the least party-friendly it's possible for an ability to be, but that's okay because the enemy spellcasters just forgot how to use their level-appropriate spells and the enemy non-spellcasters don't have high enough mental stats to remember how to move after that ability damage. And that's assuming they're immune to mind-affecting. On the bright side, it's not as broken as Subjective Reality.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    At the end of the day, though, abilities can be tweaked and rebalanced. Off target flavor is a lot harder to handle.

    I really think that the biggest problem with the Pseudonatural creature isn't that it's unbalanced, but that it feels like 95% Alienist and 5% Pseudonatural Creature. Those aspects of the class that I might ascribe to the Pseudonatural Creature (namely, the transformations) could and would (and are? I don't have access to my books) easily be an Alienist class feature. The class, in the end, feels like an Alienist, in flavor, scope and role. It's an interesting approach, and it sells the Mythos aspects, but it doesn't come across as a Pseudonatural creature. I don't think that's just my inherent bias, either. I think it's genuinely off target.

    Pseudonatural creatures aren't casters, as the Gorgondantess variant portrays them. They're like chaos spawn from Warhammer, or Shoggoths. They're aberrations half outside reality that might vaguely resemble something you could recognize one moment, then become writhing masses of tentacles the next. Their schtick is that, half outside of reality, they can phase through objects and reach into your chest to tear out your heart. That and the whole 'turn into mind-bending horrors' bit.

    The argument that the Pseudonatural creature is supposed to encompass or blend both the Pseudonatural creature and the Alienist seems off target. If I wanted an Alienist, I'd homebrew one, or roll one up. If I want a Pseudonatural creature, I'd rather have my chaos-spawny hybrid or face melting Shoggoth. I just don't see the merit in blurring the two. Especially when one class (alienist) can end up summoning the other (pseudonatural creatures).

    So yeah, that's my biggest concern with the class at present.

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    At the end of the day, though, abilities can be tweaked and rebalanced. Off target flavor is a lot harder to handle.

    I really think that the biggest problem with the Pseudonatural creature isn't that it's unbalanced, but that it feels like 95% Alienist and 5% Pseudonatural Creature. Those aspects of the class that I might ascribe to the Pseudonatural Creature (namely, the transformations) could and would (and are? I don't have access to my books) easily be an Alienist class feature. The class, in the end, feels like an Alienist, in flavor, scope and role. It's an interesting approach, and it sells the Mythos aspects, but it doesn't come across as a Pseudonatural creature. I don't think that's just my inherent bias, either. I think it's genuinely off target.

    Pseudonatural creatures aren't casters, as the Gorgondantess variant portrays them. They're like chaos spawn from Warhammer, or Shoggoths. They're aberrations half outside reality that might vaguely resemble something you could recognize one moment, then become writhing masses of tentacles the next. Their schtick is that, half outside of reality, they can phase through objects and reach into your chest to tear out your heart. That and the whole 'turn into mind-bending horrors' bit.

    The argument that the Pseudonatural creature is supposed to encompass or blend both the Pseudonatural creature and the Alienist seems off target. If I wanted an Alienist, I'd homebrew one, or roll one up. If I want a Pseudonatural creature, I'd rather have my chaos-spawny hybrid or face melting Shoggoth. I just don't see the merit in blurring the two. Especially when one class (alienist) can end up summoning the other (pseudonatural creatures).

    So yeah, that's my biggest concern with the class at present.
    Well, okay then. I was thinking, when it came to pseudonatural creature, a minor great old one, like Cthulhu's spawn, or perhaps a lesser other god. Something with more than just physical capabilities- both of these creatures are inherently magical, and don't just maul things.
    If that's the case, I can always publish this somewhere else, and you can do the pseudonatural creature.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Since you're both on I'm going to ask again.

    Can anybody think of some good abilities to give the hellfire wyrm? I need an 18th and 19th level ability, and I would prefer that it wasn't another SLA as it already gets 20.

    Although, if it would work better I can post what I have now.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-01-31 at 12:23 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Since you're both on I'm going to ask again.

    Can anybody think of some good abilities to give the hellfire wyrm? I need an 18th and 19th level ability, and I would prefer that it wasn't another SLA as it already gets 20.

    Although, if it would work better I can post what I have now.
    Definitely. I don't know anything about the hellfire wyrm, and I don't know what you already have. My first idea for an 18th/19th level ability was making the breath weapon hellfire (1/2 fire damage, 1/2 untyped), but it probably just naturally has that as a part of the breath weapon.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Hellfire Wyrm located in monster manual 2



    Before you say anything about the lack of wings or tail slap attack, the original monster didn't have them either. Hence the increase in maneuverability.

    Spoiler
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    HD:d12
    {TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
    1|+1|+2|+0|+2| Hellfire Wyrm body, Level 1 SLAs, Alternate form.
    2|+2|+3|+0|+3| Keen Senses, Hellfire Breath,
    3|+3|+3|+1|+3| Hellfire Aura, +1 Strength
    4|+4|+4|+1|+4| Wings, Level 2 SLAS, +1 Charisma
    5|+5|+4|+1|+4| Summon Devil +1 Constitution
    6|+6|+5|+2|+5| Burrow, Level 3 SLAS +1 Charisma
    7|+7|+5|+2|+5| Persuasive,
    8|+8|+6|+2|+5| Level 4 SLAS +1 Charisma
    9|+9|+6|+3|+6| Growth, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution.
    10|+10| +7|+3|+7| Level 5 SLAs +1 Charisma
    11|+11| +7|+3|+7| Molten scales +1 Constitution
    12|+12| +8|+4|+8| Greater weapon of Hell, +1 Strength
    13|+13| +8|+4|+8| Temptation of Hell +1 Strength
    14|+14| +9|+4|+9| Level 7 SLAS +1 Charisma
    15|+15| +9|+5|+9| Growth, crush, Frightful Presence +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
    16|+16|+10|+5|+10| Level 8 SLAS +1 Charisma
    17|+17|+10|+5|+10| Master Weapon of Hell, +1 Strength
    18|+18|+11|+6|+11| +1 Constitution
    19|+19|+11|+6|+11|
    20|+20|+12|+6|+12| +1 strength, +1 constitution, +1 Charisma[/table]

    6 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Bluff Diplomacy Intimidate, Jump Knowledge, Listen, Search, Spot.

    Proficiencies: a Hellfire Wyrm isn't proficient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons


    Hellfire Wyrm Body: The Hellfire Wyrm loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Hellfire Wyrm traits, fire subtype, bite 1d8 damage+Str mod, 2 claws attack for 1d6 +1/2 Str mod damage each and 40 base speed, medium size. The Hellfire Wyrm has wings, but they're too weak to do anything for now. His claws are capable of fine manipulation and can be used for somatic components of spellcasting or anything else a human hand could do.

    The Hellfire Wyrm also gets a natural armor bonus equal to its Constitution modifier. Whenever the Hellfire Wyrm grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.

    The Hellfire Wyrm has immunity to fire, but takes 50% more damage from cold attacks.

    SLAs: The Hellfire wyrm gains SLAs based on its level. The first level SLAs are gained at level 1, and the others are gained at level 4, 6, 8, 10, 14, and 16, in that order.

    All SLAs are usable 1/x times a day per HD, where X is the spell's level mentioned in this list. As an example, Unhallow is usable 1/day per 5 HD, and Blasphemy is usable 1/day per 7 HD.

    Level 1 SLAs: Charm person, Undetectable alignment
    Level 2 SLAs: Desecrate, pyrotechnics, misdirection
    Level 3 SLAs: Suggestion, hold person,
    Leve; 4 SLAs: Wall of fire, greater invisibility, sending
    Level 5 SLAS: Unhallow, true seeing, greater dispel magic
    Level 7 SLAs: Blasphemy, dictum, Teleport greater
    Level 8 SLAs: Demand, unholy aura, fire storm,

    Alternate form The Hellfire wyrm can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action 1/day for each HD it has. The wyrm can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.


    Hellfire Breath: At second level the Hellfire Wyrm gains a breath weapon. The breath weapon is a 30 foot cone dealing 1d6 damage/HD, hellfire damage, with a reflex save DC of 10+1/2 HD+Constitution modifier for half an takes 1d4 rounds to recharge. The cone increases by 5 feet for every extra hit die the dragon gains. Hellfire damage is half fire damage, half untyped.

    Weapon of Hell: at second level, All natural weapons are treated as lawful and evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

    Hellfire Aura: At third level, the Hellfire wyrm starts radiating the raw powers of hell. Any creature within the natural reach the Hellfire wyrm takes 1d4 Hellfire damage. Every 2 HD beyond this point, increase the amount of damage dealt by 1d4. This aura can be suppressed or activated as a free action.

    Wings: At 4th level the Hellfire wyrm becomes able to fly at the speed of 10 ft. per HD, with average maneuverability.

    Summon Devil: Twice per day, the Hellfire Wyrm can summon reinforcements, depending on its HD:

    3 HD:2 lemures
    8 HD:2 bearded devils
    10 HD:1 erineyes
    12 HD:2 bone devils
    14 HD:1 ice devil
    18 HD:1 horned devil

    Burrow: At level 6 the Hellfire Wyrm gains a burrow speed equal to its base land speed.

    Persuasive: At level 7, the Hellfire Wyrm gains a Racial bonus to bluff and diplomacy checks equal to half its HD

    Growth: At 9th level the Hellfire Wyrm grows to large size and at 15th level he grows to huge size. His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonuses or penalties.

    Tainted Skin: At 11th level the Hellfire wyrm gains DR/Good and magic equal to half his HD and spell resistance equal to 11+HD.

    Improved Weapon of hell:. At level 12, the Hellfire Wyrm's weapons are considered to be all forms of evil alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

    Temptation of Hell:
    At level 13 all SLAs with the mind affecting descriptor gain a +2 caster level and they can now affect creatures immune to mind affecting. Creatures that would normally be immune to mind affecting receive a +4 bonus on their saving throw.

    Crush: At 15th level the dragon can make a crush attack dealing 2d8 damage base, already taking in account huge size
    Spoiler
    Show

    This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

    A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragonís body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragonís breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they donít escape.

    A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1Ĺ times the dragonís Strength bonus (round down).



    Frightful Presence:
    at 15th level the dragon gains frightful presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks or charges. Enemies within a radius of 30 feet ◊ half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected enemy that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + Ĺ dragonís HD + dragonís Charisma modifier) remains immune to that dragonís frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, enemies with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

    Master Weapon of Hell: At level 17, the Wyrm's natural weapons now deal an extra 3 hellfire damage with each attack. This increases by 3 every 3 HD.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-02-17 at 10:52 PM.
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    "Hellfire Wyrms are expert tacticians"

    To me, that says 'battlefield control'. The ability to take to the sky and drop blasts of flame that leave daunting blazes in their path? Make craters or trenches with the impacts of their blasts? The ability to draw geysers of magma and hellfire from the ground?

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Swarmshifter:
    • Looks pretty good.
    • The prerequisite is a tad dry, though. As I said before, the prerequisite for entering the class should be something of an event, which introduces the flavor of the class to the rest of the gaming table. Having it be something any corporeal undead can enter kind of takes away from the value and the flavor of the class.


    Gibbering Mouther
    • Ground manipulation: The effect continuing on foes who escape the area is a bit weird.
    • "As a full round action, a Gibbering Mouther of 4th level can cause stone and earth in a 10 foot radius per 4 HD to become quicksand. " - wording is a bit awkward, for the underlined area.
    • Wording for ground manipulation overall is kind of confusing, and I'm just kind of confused about how it works. It causes area around you to become difficult terrain, but after enemies leave, the effect persists on them for 3 rounds? And after 3 rounds, they have to save or sink? Does that apply to those who move out of the area?


    Jovoc
    • I still have reservations about the retributive aura bogging down combat (you're attacked by six goblins. Each lands one attack. That's a potential 36 saving throws & damage calculations) and abuse (Allies attacking you for AoE damage).
    • Not sure which abilities are maneuvers (if any), but it bears stressing that we shouldn't copy copyrighted material into the entries.


    Gargoyle
    • Butchery does seem to allow for additional legs (bonus on balance checks)
    • Don't know that I like the OR repeated through the text. It's untidy.
    • 'Gargoyle' shouldn't appear in blue.
    • Still not a fan of the swim/burrow.
    • Flight comes a tad too early, IMHO. It's fairly standard to get it at 4th at the earliest (for flight based creatures) and fifth otherwise.
    • Statuesque Perfection - As I read it, I can get a second growth from this, giving me huge size at 4th.


    Remorhaz
    • 2d6 damage is a mite much at 2nd, as I see it. Reduce to 2d6 and scale up differently?
    • Otherwise, just going by the changelog & not double checking my list of critiques, I see no problems with changed abilities.


    Ragewalker
    • No changelog?
    • It doesn't seem that great at fighting for an incarnation of war. Non-full BAB and no str bonuses?
    • Way too much AC, still, scaling up far too fast.
    • Some of my previous critiques were ignored. Under fast healing, you use 'gains', which could mislead some poor souls.
    • You've left the 'blade cloud' rather unclear. You refer to 1d6, but don't state that it's damage in the same sentence.
    • You should integrate the damage type in that sentence. So instead of
      succeed on a successful reflex save each round or take 1d6 for every 4 HD the Ragewalker possesses. This damage is slashing and piercing and damage reduction applies normally.
      you'd have:
      succeed on a successful reflex save each round or take 1d6 slashing/piercing damage for every 4 HD the Ragewalker possesses. Damage reduction applies as normal.
    • I still get the impression it would bog down combat. You can have it available for a lot of rounds, a lot of encounters, adding up to a lot of little saving throws and damage calculations.
    • Blade storm master - I'd restructure this so the number of points isn't detailed at the very end. It's confusing to read as is.
    • Arguably still too many points in Blade Storm Master.


    Flesh Golem
    • I like the ability name "Fire Bad!"
    • I'd specify "A magic attack that deals electric damage to the golem..."
    • And get rid of the comma after Flesh Golem in the same sentence.
    • Specify that the golem is immune to lightning damage.
    • I'd erase the mention of 5% chance, and just leave the '1 on initiative check' bit there, to avoid confusion.
    • Still unclear in use of 'cha mod of the enemy' under abnormal mind. What happens if there's multiple enemies?
    • Consider replacing stunned in Indomitable Charge with Dazed.


    Basilisk
    • Near perfect. Make Gorgondantess' recommended changes & it's good for the list.


    Cloaker
    • Base land speed 10' is brutal.
    • Languages? Fine manipulation?
    • In an ability's description, state when the ability is gained. ie. "At second level, the cloaker can fly up to 40' to engulf a target."
    • Engulfing Leap - state that the cloaker can only make the leap if he has a target to try and engulf at the destination.
    • If the cloaker fails to engulf in a engulfing leap, where does it end up? Same square as the target? Square in front, square just past target?
    • Under cloak, should state the wearer is willing.
    • How does mutual defenses interact with the standard 'half damage dealt to the cloaker is dealt to the victim', described earlier?
    • No save vs. Unnerve?
    • Under moan, 'nausea' - what are penalties for weakness?


    Razor Boar
    • I'm a stickler for standardized formatting. 'Vorpal Body' isn't an accurate description or identifier for the Razor Boar racial features. Rename to Razor Boar Body?
    • We don't give monsters both full BAB and Str bonuses. Brute monsters get 3/4 BAB and Str bonuses.
    • Include a spoilered version of trample rules for Trample?
    • I like that you gave scent a unique bonus to the ability (I've been striving to do this for every creature that gets scent), but I think the bonus is perhaps a little too easy to get, for the quality of the bonus (10' move and ignore difficult terrain).
    • I'd scale back Sharp Tusks to a single step bonus, and give another bonus at a later point (at, for a completely arbitrary example, say, 10HD)
    • Under growth, I'd state that it becomes a large (long) creature, rather than having the reminder about it being long appear in a separate sentence.
    • The +2 to natural armor under growth may be a bit much. +1?
    • Unstoppable is perhaps too good. I'd reword the HD/5 to 'once a day per 5 HD' and change the duration from 'equal to its HD' to something like 'equal to the Razor Boar's Con mod or its HD, whichever is less'. Keeps it in the realm of sanity at mid levels.
    • I think Razor Tusks is a little too synergistic with other class features. Consider that the Boar could pick up the keen property, get the Sharp Tusks bonus, get improved critical, and ultimately get vorpal. That's... a very good chance (20%?) to get crits, with up to a x5 multiplier?. Tone down?
    • Reflexive Gore needs a bit of tidying up, grammar wise: "When a foe fails their reflex save or misses their attack of opportunity against the trampling boar provokes an attack of opportunity from the boar."
    • Too many passive abilities, perhaps. Not enough stuff that the player can choose to use in combat. It boils down to 'attack and cross fingers, rinse, repeat, maybe trample from time to time, and hope enemies provoke reflexive gore'.


    Ettercap
    • Should be a 3 level class.
    • Ettercaps don't appear to have armor proficiency, as you outline. It does have natural armor, which you don't mention under Ettercap body
    • The save vs. web should scale, so it's not completely useless at higher level, and I recommend using standard DC scaling (10 + 1/2 Ettercap HD + Ettercap {stat, probably Con} mod)
    • The bonus is a little high for the Master Climber. Maybe let it take 10 instead, even when threatened/damaged?
    • I'd rename synergy.
    • You refer to effective druid levels, which is kind of confusing, under Spider Companion.


    Skeroloth
    • "nd an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 5 HD the Skeroloth has against the target of the feint for one round." -- Confusing. Clarify? (and if I'm reading it right, you need another way to define this, because it looks awkward even if I try to interpret it favorably)
    • Languages?
    • "Edit: I don't know why the picture wastes space like that..." - should be removed.
    • I'd rework cringe so it's an option. Not sure what it does (don't have access to my books), but it sounds fun.


    Troll
    • Fantastic!


    Lodestone Marauder
    • Lodestone Marauder Body: Thanks for keeping to the '{creature name} body'. Too many ignore this. However, the ability doesn't appear on the table.
    • Can it speak?
    • Magnetic defense: The AC bonus may be too high.
    • It receives a bonus equal to its HD against electric spells and abilities... how? Reduced damage? To saving throws? Might make more sense to just give it resistance.
    • "within a 10ft+5ft/2HD cone." is a little awkward. Reword to "within a 10' cone, which extends a further 5' per 2HD of the Lodestone Marauder."?
    • Lesser Magnetic Attraction: What happens when the items reach the Lodestone Marauder?
    • Magnetic Wrecking - I'd make it simply do damage, rather than destroy items outright, to give magic items an added defense against the effect.
    • Magnetic Crushing Charge - A little awkwardly worded. I'd remove mention of the bite and just describe it as a magnetic crush that adds to the power of the charge.
    • Magnetic Repulsion - remember when I asked what happens to items that reach the lodestone marauder? I'd rework repulsion so you can turn items into projectiles, cutting or slashing at enemies as you repulse. Reduce the other effects, naturally, for balance's sake.
    • Magnetic Attraction - I'd change the description to "As Lesser Magnetic Attraction except ______", to cut down on redundancy.
    • Unstoppable Force - "up to 5fHD beneath it" - doesn't make sense. Typo? Even if I read that as 5' per HD, it's still fairly hard to fathom.
    • Ditto for Immovable Object.
    • Magneto-Kinetic Mastery: A little powerful when you consider that you can force enemies to provoke attacks of opportunity, move allies to advantageous locations, push enemies off cliffs, all without a save.
      • Also, can I move different objects in different directions?
      • What happens if I move each of an enemy's weapons in two directions.
      • Biological Supermagnet: I hate the word permanent. Don't use it unless you mean forever, even if you use wish/spells to try and change the fact.

    Overall, I like the Lodestone Marauder.

    Skipped creatures that haven't been updated in 2011. Gorgondantess and I were talking about a rule that lets others take up monsters that have been effectively 'abandoned' for a set time. Maybe something like 'Creatures untouched for 1 month are up for grabs'. But to keep people from starting monsters & abandoning them to make others do the dirty work, a note of something like: "Abandoned monsters that are adopted by new posters (with the ok of a council member) can be revised or altered wholesale, so no guarantee the original poster's work will be preserved.".
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-01-31 at 05:59 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Cloaker
    • Base land speed 10' is brutal. It has engulf for in combat mobility and can easily ride party members out of combat, I don't see it as a problem.
    • Languages? Fine manipulation? I will add these.
    • In an ability's description, state when the ability is gained. ie. "At second level, the cloaker can fly up to 40' to engulf a target." Engulfing Leap is a first level ability.
    • Engulfing Leap - state that the cloaker can only make the leap if he has a target to try and engulf at the destination. Okay.
    • If the cloaker fails to engulf in a engulfing leap, where does it end up? Same square as the target? Square in front, square just past target? Clarified.
    • Under cloak, should state the wearer is willing. Done.
    • How does mutual defenses interact with the standard 'half damage dealt to the cloaker is dealt to the victim', described earlier? Cloak is not engulf, the half damage thing is for engulf.
    • No save vs. Unnerve? For the -2 to attack and damage? No. It's not a huge effect and its range is such that you will almost certainly catch allies as well as enemies.
    • Under moan, 'nausea' - what are penalties for weakness? Falling prone? That was copypasta from th monster entry.


    Razor Boar
    • I'm a stickler for standardized formatting. 'Vorpal Body' isn't an accurate description or identifier for the Razor Boar racial features. Rename to Razor Boar Body? Okay.
    • We don't give monsters both full BAB and Str bonuses. Brute monsters get 3/4 BAB and Str bonuses. Okay.
    • Include a spoilered version of trample rules for Trample? Okay.
    • I like that you gave scent a unique bonus to the ability (I've been striving to do this for every creature that gets scent), but I think the bonus is perhaps a little too easy to get, for the quality of the bonus (10' move and ignore difficult terrain). I will change it to ignores terrain for the purpose of determining overland movement speed. Would that be better?
    • I'd scale back Sharp Tusks to a single step bonus, and give another bonus at a later point (at, for a completely arbitrary example, say, 10HD) Okay.
    • Under growth, I'd state that it becomes a large (long) creature, rather than having the reminder about it being long appear in a separate sentence. Okay.
    • The +2 to natural armor under growth may be a bit much. +1? Okay.
    • Unstoppable is perhaps too good. I'd reword the HD/5 to 'once a day per 5 HD' and change the duration from 'equal to its HD' to something like 'equal to the Razor Boar's Con mod or its HD, whichever is less'. Keeps it in the realm of sanity at mid levels. Alright.
    • I think Razor Tusks is a little too synergistic with other class features. Consider that the Boar could pick up the keen property, get the Sharp Tusks bonus, get improved critical, and ultimately get vorpal. That's... a very good chance (20%?) to get crits, with up to a x5 multiplier?. Tone down? More than that even, since the keen property would double the bonus from sharp tusks. On the other hand, they're getting one attack a round at a level where even rogues are getting two, they can't normally enchant their tusks, and the chance of a high crit still isn't terribly reliable. I don't see it as an issue, if you'd care to argue otherwise you are welcome to.
    • Reflexive Gore needs a bit of tidying up, grammar wise: "When a foe fails their reflex save or misses their attack of opportunity against the trampling boar provokes an attack of opportunity from the boar." Fixed.
    • Too many passive abilities, perhaps. Not enough stuff that the player can choose to use in combat. It boils down to 'attack and cross fingers, rinse, repeat, maybe trample from time to time, and hope enemies provoke reflexive gore'. Working on this.
    So, I've more or less given up on making enough interesting primary actions to fill up the razor boar's numerous levels and have decided to supplement any I do manage to come up with with swift actions that give the boar a respectable bonus for a single round and a few immediate action reactions to stuff your opponents do. The ones I've come up with so far are a strength bonus at first level, temporary hitpoints at second, and an ability to disarm people who stab you at third, I'll probably think a few up for later levels that look empty later.

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Skeroloth
    • "nd an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 5 HD the Skeroloth has against the target of the feint for one round." -- Confusing. Clarify? (and if I'm reading it right, you need another way to define this, because it looks awkward even if I try to interpret it favorably)
    • Languages?
    • "Edit: I don't know why the picture wastes space like that..." - should be removed.
    • I'd rework cringe so it's an option. Not sure what it does (don't have access to my books), but it sounds fun.
    I reworked the wording on Feign Weakness, added languages and dropped the footnote.
    Cringe was left out, because what it does is a standard action move that stops other from attacking you, essentially making the critter supernaturally pathetic. I didn't think this was well... cool enough for a player character, so I accentuated their careful and backstabbing natures another way instead.
    Frog in the playground.

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    I have Str 5!

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Wall of text attacks! CRITS!

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Swarmshifter:
    • Looks pretty good.
    • The prerequisite is a tad dry, though. As I said before, the prerequisite for entering the class should be something of an event, which introduces the flavor of the class to the rest of the gaming table. Having it be something any corporeal undead can enter kind of takes away from the value and the flavor of the class.
    Well, how about something out of The Mummy;

    "The Swarmshifer candidate must endure a three day process of being sealed in a coffin/sarcophagus, eaten by insects contained inside, and having them absorb your tainted essence, converting them into your own new body."

    Is that OK?

    Also, was the Vivisector/Pandoryrm mssed out on purpose? Pandoryrm is big and I need to post the Epic Levels once the main 20 looks OK (Yes, I HAVE updated it.), sure, but what about my Eldritch Scyther? He needs love too
    Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2011-02-01 at 10:54 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Well, how about something out of The Mummy;

    "The Swarmshifer candidate must endure a three day process of being sealed in a coffin/sarcophagus, eaten by insects contained inside, and having them absorb your tainted essence, converting them into your own new body."

    Is that OK?

    Also, was the Vivisector/Pandoryrm mssed out on purpose? Pandoryrm is big and I need to post the Epic Levels once the main 20 looks OK (Yes, I HAVE updated it.), sure, but what about my Eldritch Scyther? He needs love too
    Vivisector was reviewed and critiqued on page 5 of this thread. You're complaining that you want another comprehensive review, less than a week later? Rest assured, I'll get to it again before terribly long.

    Black Dragon and Pandorym, as 20 level classes, are as much as a hassle as reviewing a half dozen 5-10 level classes. I'll review them as individual efforts, in the next few days.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Vivisector was reviewed and critiqued on page 5 of this thread. You're complaining that you want another comprehensive review, less than a week later? Rest assured, I'll get to it again before terribly long.

    Black Dragon and Pandorym, as 20 level classes, are as much as a hassle as reviewing a half dozen 5-10 level classes. I'll review them as individual efforts, in the next few days.
    My bad. I just thought you were ignoring me . And Frog Dragon is doing a new version of the Black Dragon now (His is way cooler, complete with cooler pic), unless your talking to him, or me, or....or......ow. My skull.

    Anyway, Gecko's Sporadic Question Time!
    Q: Does anyone have ideas for what they would like to see in Pandorym's epic levels? All i've got so far is taking Pandorym's more powerful abilities as a monster, and converting them for player use. And turning into a living Sphere of Annihilation as a capstone, just like it's original body (No, seriously. Read the book. A 30 freaking foot Sphere of Annihilation).
    Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2011-02-01 at 11:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Remorhaz

    * 2d6 damage is a mite much at 2nd, as I see it. Reduce to 2d6 and scale up differently?
    * Otherwise, just going by the changelog & not double checking my list of critiques, I see no problems with changed abilities.
    I assume you meant for me to reduce it to 1d6? Anywho, I did drop it to 1d6, just to see how that will work out, but I'm not sure about it scaling all that differently. I mean, there isn't really a need to change how it scales that I can see.

    Also, I added a bit under Lurker, with the burrow speeds, about it burrowing faster through ice while Heat is going. Made sense, and doesn't make that much of a difference, but I thought it had good flavor, and was cool. Or hot. Whatever. Bad puns aside, let me know if the wording seems right.

    Otherwise, if anyone else would like to take a look at the Remorhaz, you are quite welcome. I haven't had time to get back here for reviewing yet, but I can most certainly read and make changes.
    "The more I talk, the stupider I sound." ~Me
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  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Gargoyle:
    Claws shouldn't arbitrarily be 1.5x str mod.
    Bonus to hide checks should scale.

    Chiseled Armaments:
    Butchery: so... if they get a slam... does that mean my gargoyle needs to have a club sticking out of his chest?
    Hideous visage is pretty lame. First of all, just give it intimidate as a class skill- it fits. Secondly, do you realize how incredibly lame demoralize is? Shaken for 1 round, whoopdeedoo. It's a waste of a standard action, in other words.

    Sudden strike should scale. Something like an additional 1d6 at 5 HD and every 5 thereafter? Don't want to give potential for a sudden striking beast, but by 6th level or so a mere 1d6 is looking pretty lame... let alone level 20.
    Filthy Talons save DC is off. 10+1/2HD+ability mod is the general rule.

    Um... snatch on a medium, level 1 creature... No. Same with awesome blow, really. Those are to represent simple massiveness.
    Ability boost... when do they get a bonus to constitution?

    Zealous carving's bonus to saves is a little high, but OK. Metabolic redundancy: it's called fortification. Avoiding precision damage/crits/sneak attack. And what you've got is a liiiiittle low.

    Growth doesn't need to scale.
    Water bullets... wow. Pretty powerful. Reduce the damage to 1d6 every 2 HD, at least.

    What's the action for overwhelming stench?

    Carved mobility: why oh why would anyone, for any reason, take swimming or burrowing over flight?

    Statuesque perfection: make it 3 from the first, 2 from the 2nd, or 1 from the third.

    Stone Cold Metabolism: Just copy undead or construct traits and pare it down for immunities and such. Lots of redundancy there. Secondly, you never actually said they can't take actions while in metabolic stasis...

    Gibbering Mouther:
    Blood drain: so... a fire giant- 7,000 pounds (y'know humvees? yeah, one of those plus a sedan), strength 31, can't move if it has a, eh, 500 lb. max gibbering mouther latched onto it? Moving on...

    Gibbering: so at 3rd level the gibbering mouther gets something that's a widened widened 4th level spell? yeahno. Lesser confusion would be better until 7 HD, and then the sonic damage is just a little excessive, especially in the fact that it's quite a bit of damage for sonic damage. I'd either tone it down quite a bit, or wait until much later.
    Making it not a mind-affecting effect is brutal... and then at 20th level it's just a no save, just suck, even if you're immune? WOW. Just... yeah, wow.

    Engulf: how many mouths?

    Thorn:
    Stagger out the weapon enhancement bonus & weapon special abilities. Also... what about, y'know, every other round other than their charisma or wisdom mod? Maybe make it permanent at level 4? Or even just waiting until level 4 to bring up the enhancement bonus at all, in that case.

    Not TOO much of a problem, but the ranged under weapon of barbs is flat out better than melee.

    Other than that, looking OK.

    Nycaloth:
    Okay... so... um...
    First of all, list the abilities in chronological order.
    Secondly, standardized yugoloth traits can be found on the 2nd level ability of the marraenoloth. Speaking of which, it would be better if you altered the SLAs to follow the same format.
    9th level is a little late for SR.
    Finally, a little bland. Try giving it some unique abilities.
    Same complaint with the
    Mezzoloth:, really. Just a chassis with a bunch of SLAs is boring. I mean, look at what Hyudra did with the troll, or the manticore, or the basilisk. Now, we can't all be that awesome, but we can at least try.
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  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Nycaloth:
    Okay... so... um...
    First of all, list the abilities in chronological order.
    Secondly, standardized yugoloth traits can be found on the 2nd level ability of the marraenoloth. Speaking of which, it would be better if you altered the SLAs to follow the same format.
    9th level is a little late for SR.
    Finally, a little bland. Try giving it some unique abilities.
    Same complaint with the
    Mezzoloth:, really. Just a chassis with a bunch of SLAs is boring. I mean, look at what Hyudra did with the troll, or the manticore, or the basilisk. Now, we can't all be that awesome, but we can at least try.
    Thanks for that, G.D.

    A few tips:
    • If the class is too feature rich to add abilities, consider replacing SLAs with abilities that do something very similar, but with flavor and tweaks to make it better fit for the monster. I took this approach with the Storm Giant. Levitate scrapped, replaced with Thundercloud Throne, Chain Lightning becomes a replacement for the eldritch-blast-like Zap. Yadda yadda.
    • Read up on the monster. There's flavor text, there's magazine articles (Ecology of the ______ in Dragon Magazine, for example) and there's stories or myths. One scene, passage or line can inspire an ability.
      • Find a good picture. Try going out of your way to find a picture other than the official one from the magazine. The act of sorting through what's available might give you ideas, as far as the general tone and style of the monster.
    • Emphasize active over passive. Figure out what defines the monster, or the playstyle you want to engender, and then come up with abilities that support this. As a rule of thumb, try aiming for either one versatile action the player can take every other level, or one more strict action every level. The Basilisk is an example of a creature with a versatile action (You get Stone Eye, which lets you do one of two semi-petrifying gazes), while the Troll is more of a creature that gets something a little narrower, but gets stuff with pretty much every level.

      This serves several purposes:
      • It makes the creature more interesting to the player. Having a level where you only get Growth or you only get DR might be ok balancewise, but it's not exciting to the player.
      • It helps bring the creature up in power level. One of the things that sets the Tier 5 classes apart from the Tier 1 classes is versatility. Tier 1 can do a wide range of stuff. Tier 5 get very few options (and aren't even particularly good at doing those few things). Options = power.
      • It reaffirms flavor. A lot of creatures get DR, SR, resistances. While it certainly gives you a general power boost, it doesn't give you the sense of being more 'demonic' or 'draconic'. An option to, in the middle of combat, tear out a portion of the enemy's soul and devour it to fuel your abilities is what makes you feel demonic. Being able to spread your wings and roar, making your enemies fall to their knees is what makes you feel like a dragon.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    An option to, in the middle of combat, tear out a portion of the enemy's soul and devour it to fuel your abilities is what makes you feel demonic. Being able to spread your wings and roar, making your enemies fall to their knees is what makes you feel like a dragon.[/list][/list]
    And the ability to summon a little raft and ferry around your party members is what makes you feel like a Marraenoloth. Totally worth 10 levels.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    And the ability to summon a little raft and ferry around your party members is what makes you feel like a Marraenoloth. Totally worth 10 levels.
    Depends on the license you wish to take. Keep in mind, Marraenoloth carry passengers of all shapes and stripes. Some, naturally, are set up to carry gargantuan or even colossal passengers down the Styx. Just throwing ideas out there, but consider a Marraenoloth who:
    • Calls forth a skiff that can pass through any terrain, that grows in size as the Marraenoloth gains HD.
    • Creates a shadowy replica of the River Styx that stretches across the battlefield.
    • Turns water into Styx Water, to douse opponents and cause them to lose (temporarily or no) skills or class features.
    • Can bind the forsworn into their service, gaining the ability to enslave the souls of those who cheat or break their word to the Marraenoloth and summarily pass away (often at the hands of the Marraenoloth itself). These 'Forsworn' can be called forth to carry out a set number of tasks in the service to the Marraenoloth they betrayed, in exchange for freedom.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Depends on the license you wish to take. Keep in mind, Marraenoloth carry passengers of all shapes and stripes. Some, naturally, are set up to carry gargantuan or even colossal passengers down the Styx. Just throwing ideas out there, but consider a Marraenoloth who:
    • Calls forth a skiff that can pass through any terrain, that grows in size as the Marraenoloth gains HD.
    • Creates a shadowy replica of the River Styx that stretches across the battlefield.
    • Turns water into Styx Water, to douse opponents and cause them to lose (temporarily or no) skills or class features.
    • Can bind the forsworn into their service, gaining the ability to enslave the souls of those who cheat or break their word to the Marraenoloth and summarily pass away (often at the hands of the Marraenoloth itself). These 'Forsworn' can be called forth to carry out a set number of tasks in the service to the Marraenoloth they betrayed, in exchange for freedom.
    Ummm... I've already done the Marraenoloth class, and I considered several of those. Well, they channeled the Styx with their touch, but other than that... yeah.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Ah, well, there you go.

    Browsing and double checking stuff is annoying when you're basically relegated to using your iTouch to post. Forgive my lamebrainedness. It's the medium, not the software.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Gargoyle
    • Butchery does seem to allow for additional legs (bonus on balance checks)
    • Don't know that I like the OR repeated through the text. It's untidy.
    • 'Gargoyle' shouldn't appear in blue.
    • Still not a fan of the swim/burrow.
    • Flight comes a tad too early, IMHO. It's fairly standard to get it at 4th at the earliest (for flight based creatures) and fifth otherwise.
    • Statuesque Perfection - As I read it, I can get a second growth from this, giving me huge size at 4th.
    • Fixed after a moment's editing.
    • That's still there? I've just skimmed it and can't find it.
    • Again, I removed this some time ago.
    • I could maybe make them advance faster?
    • I'll see what I can do, perhaps tieing in with the above idea.
    • Growth is an Improved Chiseled Armament, meaning it can only be taken once unless noted otherwise.


    Lodestone Marauder
    • Lodestone Marauder Body: Thanks for keeping to the '{creature name} body'. Too many ignore this. However, the ability doesn't appear on the table.
    • Can it speak?
    • Magnetic defense: The AC bonus may be too high.
    • It receives a bonus equal to its HD against electric spells and abilities... how? Reduced damage? To saving throws? Might make more sense to just give it resistance.
    • "within a 10ft+5ft/2HD cone." is a little awkward. Reword to "within a 10' cone, which extends a further 5' per 2HD of the Lodestone Marauder."?
    • Lesser Magnetic Attraction: What happens when the items reach the Lodestone Marauder?
    • Magnetic Wrecking - I'd make it simply do damage, rather than destroy items outright, to give magic items an added defense against the effect.
    • Magnetic Crushing Charge - A little awkwardly worded. I'd remove mention of the bite and just describe it as a magnetic crush that adds to the power of the charge.
    • Magnetic Repulsion - remember when I asked what happens to items that reach the lodestone marauder? I'd rework repulsion so you can turn items into projectiles, cutting or slashing at enemies as you repulse. Reduce the other effects, naturally, for balance's sake.
    • Magnetic Attraction - I'd change the description to "As Lesser Magnetic Attraction except ______", to cut down on redundancy.
    • Unstoppable Force - "up to 5fHD beneath it" - doesn't make sense. Typo? Even if I read that as 5' per HD, it's still fairly hard to fathom.
    • Ditto for Immovable Object.
    • Magneto-Kinetic Mastery: A little powerful when you consider that you can force enemies to provoke attacks of opportunity, move allies to advantageous locations, push enemies off cliffs, all without a save.
      • Also, can I move different objects in different directions?
      • What happens if I move each of an enemy's weapons in two directions.
      • Biological Supermagnet: I hate the word permanent. Don't use it unless you mean forever, even if you use wish/spells to try and change the fact.

    Overall, I like the Lodestone Marauder.
    • Whoops, will be fixed. Sorry about these errors. I tend to get something out quickly so any really bad ideas can be noticed and immediately discarded.
    • No, its mentioned in Lodestone Marauder Body, which I will clear up and organise as I go through it (but not now, I should really be studying).
    • Okay, I'll look over it.
    • Bonus to saving throws, dammit. I hate typos.
    • Will do.
    • I had a creeping feeling that I should have mentioned this somewhere, but couldn't find anywhere it fitted. Maybe a note in LM Body and the ability itself. Will be fixed, hopefully.
    • Okay, sensible.
    • Will do.
    • Ooh, that's a good idea. Expect it in the next edit.
    • That's almost a better idea, though a less exciting one.
    • Typo indeed. I was sure there was a "/" between those. It is per HD.
    • Ditto.
    • I'll remove the AoO provocations, but remember that it is a one-round action, you can't do anything during that turn. Any foe standing near enough to a cliff to be pushed off by a 5ft per 3HD movement deserves it, particularly if the Marauder has done anything else before they start charging up Mastery. I think I'll make it interruptable as a spell. That should remove many concerns.
    • Rewording will come with the next edit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Gargoyle:
    Claws shouldn't arbitrarily be 1.5x str mod.
    Bonus to hide checks should scale.

    Chiseled Armaments:
    Butchery: so... if they get a slam... does that mean my gargoyle needs to have a club sticking out of his chest?
    Hideous visage is pretty lame. First of all, just give it intimidate as a class skill- it fits. Secondly, do you realize how incredibly lame demoralize is? Shaken for 1 round, whoopdeedoo. It's a waste of a standard action, in other words.

    Sudden strike should scale. Something like an additional 1d6 at 5 HD and every 5 thereafter? Don't want to give potential for a sudden striking beast, but by 6th level or so a mere 1d6 is looking pretty lame... let alone level 20.
    Filthy Talons save DC is off. 10+1/2HD+ability mod is the general rule.

    Um... snatch on a medium, level 1 creature... No. Same with awesome blow, really. Those are to represent simple massiveness.
    Ability boost... when do they get a bonus to constitution?

    Zealous carving's bonus to saves is a little high, but OK. Metabolic redundancy: it's called fortification. Avoiding precision damage/crits/sneak attack. And what you've got is a liiiiittle low.

    Growth doesn't need to scale.
    Water bullets... wow. Pretty powerful. Reduce the damage to 1d6 every 2 HD, at least.

    What's the action for overwhelming stench?

    Carved mobility: why oh why would anyone, for any reason, take swimming or burrowing over flight?

    Statuesque perfection: make it 3 from the first, 2 from the 2nd, or 1 from the third.

    Stone Cold Metabolism: Just copy undead or construct traits and pare it down for immunities and such. Lots of redundancy there. Secondly, you never actually said they can't take actions while in metabolic stasis...
    First of all, they aren't.
    The Hide bonus is a good catch, I'll edit that.

    Does a Mummy have a club sticking out of its chest? Or a Vampire? No? Well there you are then.

    Wait a moment, Butchery? That's not what the ability is called anymore. Are you looking at a different version from me? I noticed this about when I got to Metabolic Redundancy, and it would explain a lot. I'll continue editing based on this review, but I suspect a communication failure, here.

    Intimidate is now a class skill by default, Hideous Visage is now a move action.
    Ambush Hunter, and all other base Chiseled Armaments can be taken more than once (though not two levels in a row), so it does scale (so long as you focus on it a bit).
    I thought a disease on natural weapons was a bit powerful for level one with the full save DC, but that is now edited.
    Snatch and Awesome Blow are both gone now, but I thought they'd be limited by a lack of Strength bonuses and Medium size.

    That's now mentioned in the ability, as I'm looking at it. First and third levels.

    Zealous is now two saves instead of all three.
    Metabolic Redundancy is now scaling Fortification as part of Freeze.

    Growth is now still scaling, but not in the same way. It does still need to scale somehow, to make up for only being taken once (see the Improved Chiseled Armaments ability).
    I'll tone Water Bullets down as noted.
    Overwhelming Stench no longer exists, due to the non-stacking of the sickened condition (where fear effects and fatigue stack) and the mass poison and nauseation immunity at high levels.

    I may dial back the flight a notch and speed the progression of the other two. Besides, aquatic campaigns and dungeon crawls are well known adventuring options. I can see your problem with a swim speed, but burrow speeds are rather rare, having one allows you to outmaneuver many high level challenges, where flight would put you on even footing, if that.

    Reasoning? What would you choose that could be powerful enough to warrant changing it? Three from the first list is rather powerful, allowing you to get 4d6 Sudden Strike at fourth level, in addition to other class features. Or you could have all the Imp. Armaments, since they're added to the first list. Or you could get four natural weapons, in addition to your claws, and add Stone Heavyweight to have the damage and reach improve. And no-one would ever choose to get two extra Stone Skin abilities or an extra movement type. I'd rather keep it as two from any list.

    You see, if I had a Wisdom score a gnat didn't have to bend down to spit on, I'd have thought of something like that. On the other hand I'm fairly sure objects can't take actions, which is why it doesn't take an action to come out of.

    I'll get some editing done, but I'll be leaving a lot of it for later. If I don't get to it over the weekend, someone please PM me.

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Wait a moment, Butchery? That's not what the ability is called anymore. Are you looking at a different version from me? I noticed this about when I got to Metabolic Redundancy, and it would explain a lot. I'll continue editing based on this review, but I suspect a communication failure, here.
    Actually, my suspicion is that you reposted the class instead of editing the original post, which we've repeatedly asked people not to do, as it's confusing, and there was confusion as a result. So both Gorgon and I clicked on the link under 'unfinished monsters' to review your monster, reviewed it, and now we're not on the same page as you.

    Go to the second or third post of this thread, find Gargoyle and click the link. Read through it. Figure out if you're talking about the same monster we are.

    And for the record, people, do not post the same monster more than once (unless you're a new author doing a completely different version of an outdated monster, in which case you should have Council approval) and expect people to keep track of which is the most recent. It's a bad idea, it's messy, it's annoying and it's confusing. It doesn't remind anyone about your monster (We've got the unfinished monster list for that, and as long as you're active, we'll review your monsters sooner or later), and it tends to create chaos.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-02-02 at 09:24 AM.

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