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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    It didn't occur to me to PM it to myself so I could work on it in bits and pieces, I didn't see that horned devil before and to be honest it isn't what I think a horned devil should be.
    In that case, you should either take that up with the horned devil's creator or start your own thread. It's kindof rude to just come in here and say "Yo, I think your monster isn't right so I'ma make my own, kthx."

    How can it do that when it's essentially in a crystalline straightjacket?
    What do you mean? It can get psionic disintegrate. It's not like it's incapable of using its vast mental powers to direct a beam that's created using its vast mental powers.
    BAB doesn't mean melee combat skill, or even physical combat skill- it means the ability to direct an attack.

    Well, now it gets its very own wall of text, complete with the line saying "It may only learn powers from the Psion Power List (Not including Specialist Psion Lists). Problem solved.
    Eh, I suppose that works. You're really attached to your table, aren't you?

    It's at Lv19. If I was being braindead and gave it at 10th level or something, then yeah, shout at me. But I hardly think 1pp less is going to break the game when 9th level spells/manuvers/+5 Greatswords of Uberness are being swung around. I can nerf it slightly, though.
    It doesn't stack with any other power point cost reducers? What other power point cost reducers? The only ones I can think of are gained through class levels.
    Anyways, the point is it gets that on top of everything else. No, it doesn't break the game alone, but with all of the Pandorym's other abilities I think it's a bit too much.
    Anyways, a quick fix would be to state that then all powers can be augmented to a max of the Pandorym's ML-1, to balance with the power point cost reduction.

    I figured that's what you meant. I know the monster is a bit of a one-trick pony and doesn't have too much else going for it. Also, at this point, I'm not doing any major work on it (just suggestions from others), so I think I've probably gotten as far with it as I can. Like I said before, if someone really has the desire to take a stab at it, completely rework it, what-have-you, go for it. I bear no ill will and would almost be happy to see a fresh take on it.
    Well... it's pretty much done. Just bear with me for one more critique, tops?
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2011-02-07 at 03:25 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Ya'know what, it's too late in the night to argue about this stuff, so i'm going to just give Pandorym so many uses per day with Psionic Vortex. Plus, I know how to fix this BAB nonsense thanks to what you just said, so, one moment please *Music*

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Well... it's pretty much done. Just bear with me for one more critique, tops?
    Well, that I can more than do. I'm not going to really be off the project unless someone else wants to mess with it. It's kinda been my deformed brainchild for the past thread or two, and as much as I really want to move on, I want to see it done, too.
    Last edited by Makiru; 2011-02-07 at 07:58 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Hi everyone-- I'm back!

    I'm glad to see Hyudra took over editing the index while I was gone, and I apologize for kind of leaving these forums without warning. The last month and a half, especially since the holidays, has been crazy hectic. I couldn't really afford to come on here, since if I start, I'll get sucked in again. Now things are simmering down a *little* bit and I figured I'd come back. Glad to see the project is still thriving, this is the one thing I was really, really nervous about having to leave while I took my hiatus from GiantITP.

    I'm not sure if you'd still like me on the council-- a lot has flown by. I'd be happy to stay there, or just as happy to keep working on monsters and step down, since my hiatus.

    In any case, if you could please move my monsters from the abandoned list to the unfinished list, that'd be great. I've got the Living Spell (Ack, I'd like to finally get that thing finished, considering how long that particular monster has been unfinished), the Animated Object (I personally like the method of choice it has now), the Yellow Musk Creeper, and the "Wendigo" (put in quotes because it's not my monster. As I have no clue about the original creator's intentions, I'll simply make any change that you all suggest, flat out.)

    So, I'm back, and I'm sorry for having to leave for such an extended period of time. Keep up the great monster making work!
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Corrupted Creature
    Prestige/Template Monster Class
    Book of Vile Darkness


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    Prerequisites: To become a Corrupted Creature, a player must fulfill the following requirements:

    • Any creature type but outsider.
    • 5 or more HD.
    • Must possess at least one Natural Weapon*.
    • Must have been exposed to an evil influence of terrible strength; examples include an act of genocide, the birth of a evil god, or the death of a powerful good demigod or hero.

    *: For creatures which don’t possess a natural weapon, the DM should consider adding Willing Deformity: Claws as a bonus feat to the creature, given the great extent of the evil that tainted it.

    HD: D8
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Corrupted Body, Dark Power, +1 Str, +1 Con

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Greater Form of Darkness, +1 Str, +1 Con

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Enhanced Power +1 Str, +1 Con[/table]
    Skill Points: 2+Int per level
    Class Skills: Same as the Base Creature plus Intimidate (Cha).

    Proficiencies: Corrupted Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons and natural armor.

    Corrupted Body: The appearance of a Corrupted Creature misshapes and twists in aberrant ways, an evidence of the darkness influence over it. Common changes include mottled, discoloured flesh, and reddish eyes. Unlike other monster classes, the creature's original racial traits are retained. The Corrupted Creature becomes an Aberration, gaining all the associated traits. Also, as its flesh becomes more strong and resilient, the Corrupted Creature gains a choice of natural armor equal to its Constitution modifier, or having any pre-existing natural armor change to use Con and gaining a flat +2 bonus to it.

    Ability Score Increases: The Corrupted Creature gains +1 Str, +1 Con at every level, totalling at +3 Str, +3 Con over 3 levels.

    Dark Power: The great evil responsible for the corruption imposes its mark on the corrupted Creature. At first level, it gains a bonus damage to its natural attacks equal to 1/4 of its HD, rounded up. This bonus damage is Vile damage. Also, the creature gains Elemental Resistance 5 per 5 HD to a single energy type, chosen at its creation (usually one connected to the source of the corruption, if possible).

    Greater Form of Darkness: At second level, the body of the Corrupted Creature transcends its mortal limits, becoming more and more similar to the dark power that damned it. It gains Damage Reduction equal to ½ HD/magic, which eventually changes to ½ HD/magic and good at 10 HD. It also gains Fast Healing equal to ¼ of its HD, rounded down.

    Enhanced power: At third level, the spirit of the Corrupted Creature accepts the Darkness that changed its body and draws greater power from it. It gains a profane bonus to all of its save DCs for its special attacks equal to the bonus damage from its Dark Power Ability. Also, it chooses and gains a single spell like ability usable once per day per 4 HD. The spell chosen must have the evil descriptor and a level no greater than ¼ the creature HD, minimum 0. It can be swapped for a more powerful one as soon as the next level of spell becomes available through this ability (meaning it can’t be changed if the creature merely gains levels in a caster class that has access to that spell level sooner).
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    Here's my first attempt at a monster class. I used the Gravetouched Ghoul as a Base for wording and stuff, as I hoped it would be easier to reduce the amount of grammar mistakes that way (English is not my primary language).
    The Corrupted Creature is one of my personal favourite, I tried to add more or less all of its abilities so it may be a little over the top. I tried to nerf them, of course.
    I added the spell like ability at thrid level as not every creature has got special attacks with a Save DC and I didn't want to make a useless capstone...
    Last edited by Markus Darkmind; 2011-02-08 at 10:23 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Does it not have an 'evil' prereq?
    Typo of Con as 'cos' at third level in the table.
    Should be 'more and more' in Greater Form of Darkness.

    Overall, it looks pretty strong, but not too strong. I think. I'm not sure about the prereqs, as is it's enterable at level 2. Possibly 1 if you put an event in your backstory.

    Oh, also, it might be easier just to say for Proficiences: 'Gains no new armour or weapon proficiencies.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Thanks for the critique!

    Does it not have an 'evil' prereq?
    I thought about it, but in the manual it says you can be corrupted for simply being present on the site of great evil events, so I think it's rather in the hand of the DM to decide how that should influence your alignement. It could be a forced change, after all.

    Typo of Con as 'cos' at third level in the table.
    Should be 'more and more' in Greater Form of Darkness.
    Thanks for the catch.

    Overall, it looks pretty strong, but not too strong. I think. I'm not sure about the prereqs, as is it's enterable at level 2. Possibly 1 if you put an event in your backstory.
    I see. Maybe a limit on the HD is in order... Something like Prerequisites: 5 or more HD?

    Oh, also, it might be easier just to say for Proficiences: 'Gains no new armour or weapon proficiencies.'
    It may be, but I took that directly from Hyudra's Gravetouched Ghoul, so I'll wait for her reply on that.
    Last edited by Markus Darkmind; 2011-02-08 at 10:20 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Oh good. I hate alignment prereqs, but this seemed like a relevant place to at least check. xD

    5HD makes sense... that said, it would be fine for lower than that for the DM. xD Yeah, 5+HD.

    ...hmm. Maybe Hyudra knows something I don't know, but... Natural Armour doesn't need proficiency of any kind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicyop View Post
    Hi everyone-- I'm back!

    I'm glad to see Hyudra took over editing the index while I was gone, and I apologize for kind of leaving these forums without warning. The last month and a half, especially since the holidays, has been crazy hectic. I couldn't really afford to come on here, since if I start, I'll get sucked in again. Now things are simmering down a *little* bit and I figured I'd come back. Glad to see the project is still thriving, this is the one thing I was really, really nervous about having to leave while I took my hiatus from GiantITP.

    I'm not sure if you'd still like me on the council-- a lot has flown by. I'd be happy to stay there, or just as happy to keep working on monsters and step down, since my hiatus.

    In any case, if you could please move my monsters from the abandoned list to the unfinished list, that'd be great. I've got the Living Spell (Ack, I'd like to finally get that thing finished, considering how long that particular monster has been unfinished), the Animated Object (I personally like the method of choice it has now), the Yellow Musk Creeper, and the "Wendigo" (put in quotes because it's not my monster. As I have no clue about the original creator's intentions, I'll simply make any change that you all suggest, flat out.)

    So, I'm back, and I'm sorry for having to leave for such an extended period of time. Keep up the great monster making work!
    Well, can't really complain, as I did take a leave of absence on my own for much the same reasons. That said, my only responsibility at the time was the Purple Worm.

    For now, rather than get overwhelmed with both council duties and the backlog of monsters (both ones you created and ones that've been made in your absence), why don't you just relax as far as the council goes and focus on finishing up your monsters & critiquing the monsters of others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Darkmind
    It may be, but I took that directly from Hyudra's Gravetouched Ghoul, so I'll wait for her reply on that.
    It's technically fine to state it that way, but a little outdated/awkward. I often just go for "The XXXX is proficient only with its own natural attacks." -- as (opposed to a negative "You get nothing!"), it implies the creature has natural attacks to fall back on and isn't completely helpless. In any event, I wouldn't stress.

    I agree that the Corrupted Creature needs the 5HD prereq, and I'd also ask that you put the body of the text inside spoilers (everything from just above Prereqs to the comments).

    My main complaint of the creature is that it isn't exciting, and it isn't terribly flavorful. Take away the prereq and the vile typing on the bonus damage and it doesn't really sell the corrupted nature.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Apologize for the pronoun... I forgot to check

    It's technically fine to state it that way, but a little outdated/awkward. I often just go for "The XXXX is proficient only with its own natural attacks." -- as (opposed to a negative "You get nothing!"), it implies the creature has natural attacks to fall back on and isn't completely helpless. In any event, I wouldn't stress.
    Thanks, will do.

    I agree that the Corrupted Creature needs the 5HD prereq, and I'd also ask that you put the body of the text inside spoilers (everything from just above Prereqs to the comments).
    Same here.

    My main complaint of the creature is that it isn't exciting, and it isn't terribly flavorful. Take away the prereq and the vile typing on the bonus damage and it doesn't really sell the corrupted nature.
    Mh, I see. That could indeed be. I'm of course open for suggestions on the matter. A way to solve that would be to make unique abilities for each kind of corruption, like abyssal, infernal, and alien ones...

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Oooh, maybe give it the ability to pass the corruption on!
    Hyudra's a girl? Who knew.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Darkmind View Post
    Mh, I see. That could indeed be. I'm of course open for suggestions on the matter. A way to solve that would be to make unique abilities for each kind of corruption, like abyssal, infernal, and alien ones...
    I wouldn't go that route, as it makes for some headaches. If you're keen on offering options (and options are good), then consider just having a variety of standard 'corrupted' abilities, without trying to classify them.

    Ultimately though, what is your creature offering? I'm not talking about mechanical benefit, but more about playstyle. Why do I choose to take Corrupted Creature over class levels in something else? If I take rogue, I get skill points and sneak attack dice to favor an ambush oriented or flanking based playstyle. If I take Corrupted Creature I get some bonus damage on attacks, an SLA, DR and FH: something I could readily get elsewhere. The benefits are ok in general, but they're just very very general. The class doesn't promote a role, and doesn't do anything special as far as encouraging a preexisting role (as bard levels might for a harpy, or barbarian levels for a Minotaur).

    In short, what is the Corrupted Creature going to do with itself, over the course of the game? 3 levels is about 40 encounters, going by standard numbers. That's not a short span of time, to dedicate to taking the full levels in the class.

    Now, I'll readily admit, one could say I made the same mistake in the design of the Creature of Legend... but there was a concept at work there. To be specific, I was offering a stopgap measure to shore up the weaknesses that tend to plague monsters at higher levels. Inability to penetrate DRs, lack of resilience and lack of stopping power.

    So, getting back to the corrupted creature, why would I take it? Pretend I'm (or everyone critiquing is) a player with a 5th level monster class, and they're debating taking levels in Corrupted Creature. Convince us and get us excited about getting those Corrupted Creature levels. Sell us the idea of the creature, and the idea of becoming really good at doing [fill in the blank].

    Therein lies the trick.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-02-08 at 10:56 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Mmm... Which role should I choose, then?
    The template as written, seems to benefit more meele oriented monsters, given the original one had a penalty on Dex, Wis and Cha. The vile damage also follows that logic, while the bonus to save DCs could greatly benefit spellcasters. A gish, maybe?

  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Hyudra's a girl? Who knew.
    Would help if she listed that on her profile, huh?

    Corrupted creature seems alright. It has a solid theme. I would, however, recommend that you drop the natural weapons requirement, and instead grant some at level 1. Given that you make a suggestion to have DMs grant a bonus feat to that effect, it seems reasonable.

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Well, your options are:
    • A melee monster. Complementing melee abilities.
    • A martial monster, complementing melee and ranged abilities.
    • You could offer options for every conceivable role, by virtue of having a long list of corrupted options the player could draw from.
    • You could make it a gish, which is pretty flexible.


    The trouble with gishes is that they're rather hard to make. Hybrid classes (those that have multiple roles, in one fashion or another) are very tricky to do well. I'm not a bad homebrewer, and I tried it with the Storm Giant. It was flavorful, but I don't know it's my best monster, so I'm sitting on it for a while, to think about what changes to put into effect.

    When you think of a corrupted creature, what do you think? Without getting into mechanics, when you picture one in a party, what is it doing? How is it interacting? Is it leading the group or lurking in the back? Is it interacting with NPCs or staying out of sight? In combat, is it in the back lines, or is it in the thick of it?

    When I was first looking into the Basilisk, I was kind of stumped. I ended up writing a short story featuring a Basilisk as part of an adventuring party, just to get my head into the Basilisk's place in the greater scheme of things:
    Spoiler
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    The wagon wheel creaked, long and loud, through the Cetacian Glades. The sound was enough to startle birds from the branches, sending them flying through the air above the forest of black-leafed trees.

    "I told you to fix that wheel, Hiss," growled the man in charcoal gray armor that sat at the front of the wagon, reins in his hands.

    "I did, Aram, I did," responded the thin man who was group's craftsman, doctor and scoundrel, in the strained, damaged voice that was his namesake.

    "Did you? Because I think that same wheel just alerted every beast and brigand for leagues around, that we're carrying thousands of gold worth of goods back to Wartton," Aram spoke.

    "Old wagon," Hiss hissed, "Could be a different wheel that's squeaking."

    Aram's retort was cut off, as the wagon lurched and changed course. Aram leaned forward, putting his gauntleted hand on the back of the six foot long, eight legged, rose-colored lizard that was hauling the wagon, "What is it, girl?"

    "Niddhogg is a boy lizard, fool," mumbled the sorceress who was lying alongside the luggage on the wagon. Aram glanced at Hiss, who rolled his bloodshot eyes and made no effort to side with one person or the other in the weeks-long debate.

    Ignoring the sorceress, Aram asked the lizard once more, "Where are you going?"

    "Murrrrrrrrrrrr," rumbled the lizard. Still confused, but reassured by the non-threatened tone of Niddhogg's response, Aram leaned back, letting the reins slack.

    "Any idea?" Hiss asked.

    "It sounded kind of like a hungry growl," Aram ventured, "Is that it, Niddhogg? Are you hungry?"

    "Eeuurrp," Niddhogg chirped, pausing briefly to turn its head and glance at Aram with cataract-white eyes. It said a lot about the beast's relationship with Aram that he didn't flinch.

    "No, it's not food she's after, but she wouldn't turn down a snack," Aram interpreted.

    Hiss shrugged. From behind them, the sorceress spoke, not lifting her head from the bedroll she was using as a pillow, "He. And I don't understand how he can be hungry all the time, when he can live off a diet of rocks."

    "Unlike you, Nexandie, our Niddhogg is a lady of taste," Aram replied, "And rocks, I imagine, don't taste terribly good. Isn't that right, girl?"

    "Hurrrrr," Niddhogg rumbled. Then, with redoubled effort, the lizard pulled forward, hauling the wagon through a patch of trees and into a clearing.

    The surrounding trees had the same slate blue trunks and jet black leaves as the rest of the Cetacian Glades. The ground underfoot was intermixed patches of charcoal gray dirt and black grass. What stood out was the pond. The water was white. Not merely the white of milk, but a white so pure and free of shadow that it seemed almost to glow. Like a bolt of lightning frozen in time, a narrow stream of the same white liquid zig zagged from the dark foliage, down the nearby hill and into the pond. The sound of the white water trickling down the stream filled the clearing.

    "What in the hells is this?" Aram breathed. As Niddhogg continued to lumber forward, he pulled on the reins. His efforts did nothing to slow the lizard's pace. Pulling hard, he grunted, "Hold on there, girl."

    It was little use. The reins were more to stir Niddhogg into moving again when the creature paused, or to give general directions. In the end, though, the three hundred and fifty pound lizard went where it wanted. Aram hopped from his seat at the front of the wagon and hurried forward to try and get in front of Niddhogg, but wasn't able to before it reached the pond and dipped its snout in the water. There was a sound of the creature lapping water into its mouth and gulping it back.

    "Hope it isn't poisonous," Nexandie spoke. She had risen from her makeshift bed and was now standing atop the highest point on the wagon. Even from this vantage point, the raven haired gnome sorceress stood no higher than Hiss, who was stepping forward to stand beside Aram.

    "Gods damn it," Aram spoke. After a pause, he added, "Me too."

    "Niddhogg was thirsty?" Hiss ventured.

    "Guess so," Aram said, "We've been on the road since dusk. At least ten hours. This may be Niddhogg's way of saying she needs a break. I propose we make camp, hunt up something more substantial than dry tack for food. Any objections?"

    "Yeah," an unfamiliar voice cut in, "I object."

    Startled, Aram, Hiss and Nexandie turned to find the source of the voice. None was apparent.

    "Yeah," the voice said, "We heard about you guys. 'Evil Eye Wayfarers', got a fair sized loan from the Wartton Adventurer's Guild, promising a big haul."

    There was a mean chuckle, echoed by a half dozen others in the vicinity.

    "Sorry to say, you won't make it back to Wartton," the voice sneered.

    Nexandie laughed, sounding for all the world like a little girl. As she spoke, her tone of voice had a measure of condescension that one wouldn't find in a person three times her size, "That threat sounds kind of feeble when you're hiding in the trees."

    There was a pause, then the unmistakable sound of a crossbow. Nexandie flinched, and then collapsed to the ground, the feathered end of the bolt sticking out of her stomach. At Aram's outraged cry, the Basilisk turned, glowing water still dripping from its maw. The lizard's angry, guttural screech joined Aram's voice as the battle opened.

    The battle was short. The bandits attacked from the trees, but under Niddhogg's gaze, the foliage became sharp edged stone, impeding the Bandit's movements. Aram cut the Basilisk free from the wagon and called his shadow from the ground. The shadow, a darker reflection of Aram himself, lunged forward, just steps ahead of him, to impede his foes and leave them off balance for the precise swings of his longsword. Hiss knelt over their sorceress, a vial of acid between each finger, and threw a half dozen vials at any face or flesh that made itself visible between the black leafed trees. Agonized screams made it clear when the vials shattered and acid landed on target. Niddhogg abruptly charged into the trees at full speed, ignorant or uncaring of the roots that tried to snare the eight thick legs of the lizard. Eyes glowing, the Basilisk turned a whole swathe of forest and the three remaining bandits to hard stone.

    As Aram sheathed his sword, his shadow sinking back to the ground to join its feet with his, Hiss quickly set his remaining acid vials back in his bandoleer and got to work on the sorceress, with scalpel, bandage, needle and thread set between his dextrous fingers much as the vials had been. The Basilisk came trudging back into the clearing, branches of wood and stone alike breaking around it and getting trampled beneath the lizard's broad clawed feet. Gently, the Basilisk nudged the prone Sorceress with its broad snout, then settled down on the ground, quietly watching.

    *

    "I have studied the arcane since before your grandfather was born, cursed knight," Nexandie managed to sound imperious even as she winced and whimpered every time the wagon bounced over a bump, stone or pothole on the road, "I'm telling you, he's a boy. A man. A chap. A bloke."

    "And I've raised Nidhogg since she was an egg," Aram replied, testily, "If she were a boy, I'm sure I would have noticed."

    Hiss' strained groan of annoyance - all sounds he made were strained or rasping - was barely audible as he turned over on the back of the wagon, pulling the spare bedroll around so it covered his ear.

    The Basilisk grunted as it began pulling the wagon up a steep hill covered in stones. The wagon leaned back heavily on a back wheel, and the wheel, true to form, creaked loudly enough to echo through the black glades.

    Aram turned to admonish Hiss, but his words died in his throat as a noise echoed a response to the creaking wagon, screeches long and loud. The Basilisk stopped in its tracks, looking around ponderously.

    "And just to show I know what I'm talking about," Nexandie smiled grimly, "Those were dragon cries. Three young adult greens or juveniles, if I'm not mistaken."

    "Hrrrrraaaaaaaaaa," The Basilisk groaned out.

    Aram set his gauntleted hand on the pommel of his sword. Behind his helm, Aram's mouth set into a firm line, "Goddammit, Hiss. You've got to fix that wheel already."

    You don't have to read that (I'm just including it because I figure someone might ask, written as what I imagine as a snippet out of a larger adventure arc), but I'm just saying, you gotta wrap your head around the flavor before you can sell the creature. Work with base creature, don't just copy the template as is. Templates are for monsters the DM wants to get out there quick & fast. PCs are player-owned, and players have little else to dedicate themselves to than their character. They can afford to be more complex.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-02-08 at 12:51 PM.

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    Hey, good to have you back, Magicyop!

    Thoughts on the Corrupted Creature:
    1) I'd like to second the request that natural weapons be made a part of the template, if you are just going to suggest that the DM give out a feat for claws anyways. It'd be better to just give the creature claws, and have the player not use them. The only way I can see this being a problem, is if the player is using a monster with a very powerful bite, and just dips into corrupted creature for secondary claw attacks.
    After reading the over the original creature, you could say that they either gain claws if they don't already have natural attacks, or can boost the die size of one type of existing natural attack.
    2) Secondly, I'd like to point out that the creature is already strongly leaning towards a melee-with-benefits role, what with the full BAB, good Fort save, and Str/Con bonuses. Toss in resistances and bonus damage on natural attacks, and you could probably build a pretty good fighter.
    3) Corrupted Body is pretty straightforward, and the option to add to existing natural armor is a really good move in this thread.
    4) Yay for more damage! Vile damage, too. Its a great way to get a little extra damage that won't be affected by DR. Also, energy resistance could be handy. It might be easier to state that resistance equals HD, rather then the "resistance 5 per 5HD" that you have now.
    5) More resistances and fast healing, yay! Handy and straightforward, but very passive.
    6) Ooh, spell-like ability that scales. Shiny. I like that you get to pick your own within the parameters, and that it scales as you level. Gives the creature something to do when it isn't tearing things to little pieces with it's natural weapons.
    - Overall, this is a pretty straightforward class, with a lot of nice things to add on to your existing creature. The only real problem I have with this class is that almost all of the abilities are passive. You don't activate them, you don't think about them, an they don't really give you more options for crazy terrible things your corrupted creature can do that nothing else can do. In other words, it comes out kinda boring as a PC class. The only ability that isn't passive is a simple spell-like ability. My suggestion would be to create an ability or two of your own to stick in. Some sort of corrupted smite o' doom, or the ability to use his inner corruption to blind/weaken/sap the strength of enemies for glory and world domination/something awesome and unpredictable.
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    Suggestion for the Corrupted One:

    Vile Smite (Su): Once per day, when making a natural attack, the Corrupted One may draw on the wrongness at its core to taint its damage. The attack gains a bonus to hit equal to the Corrupted One's Con modifier, and half the damage dealt by the attack is Vile damage (which stacks with that from the Dark Power ability).

    Once called up, the foul energy cannot be dissipated; it must be released. If the Vile Smite misses, the corruption churns within the Corrupted One's body, dealing 1 point of Vile damage to her. The energy has not been expended, so her next attack with that natural weapon will also be a Vile Smite. This continues, dealing 1 Vile damage to the Corrupted One after every missed attack (or 1 every round if she does not attack with that natural weapon), until a Smite is successful and the terrible energy can be released from her body.

    The Corrupted One may use this ability additional times per day, but doing so takes its toll on her body. Each use after the first costs 1 point of Wis damage and 1 point of Con burn.

    At 8 HD, and every 4 HD thereafter, the Corrupted One may choose to augment their Vile Smite with one of the following effects. If the Corrupted One already has 12 or more HD when she gains the Vile Smite ability, she only gains one augment, but may still gain additional ones from Hit Dice gained in the future (at every HD that is a multiple of four).
    Spoiler
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    • Impervious to Impervious-ness (Prereq: Caster level 1+): The Vile Smite ignores any defensive bonuses from spells or effects with the [good] descriptor. Additionally, if the Smite hits on the first try, the Corrupted One may make a caster level check with a +5 profane bonus to dispel any spells or effects active on the target with the [good] descriptor, to a maximum of 1 spell/effect dispelled per seven HD.
    • Practiced Smite (Prereq: Must have taken enough Con burn from additional uses of Vile Smite to reduce your Con score to half its normal value, OR must have taken Con burn from using Vile Smite often enough to stay at least 2 points below your full normal score for an entire month): You may now smite twice per day without penalty, and you now take Con damage instead of Con burn, and no Wis damage, for additional uses of Vile Smite.
    • Deluding Smite: The false promise of dark power tugs at your target's mind. A target struck by your Vile Smite takes a -2 penalty to its next Will save.
    • Furious Doom: If you hit with your Vile Smite on the first attempt, you enter a rage. Treat this as the ability of a Barbarian of your Hit Dice, except that you never gain Tireless Rage.
    • Vile Frenzy (Prereq: At least three natural weapons, Multiattack): Your Vile Smite applies to all natural attacks you make for 1 round. If you have two or more claw attacks and the Rend special attack, all Rend damage you deal this round is Vile damage. You must hit with at least half of your natural attacks to discharge the Smite, and your damage for failing to discharge it is increased to (1/5 Hit Dice) Vile Damage. If you fail to discharge your Vile Smite on the first round, it only applies to a single Natural Attack thereafter.
    • Repulsive Power: Additionally, any Good target taking damage from a Vile Smite must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Str modifier) or be nauseated for 1 round by the foulness coursing through them. Any non-Good target taking damage from a Vile Smite must make a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Str modifier) or be Dazed for 1 round by the dark power of the smite. Targets immune to being Nauseated or Dazed (as appropriate) instead take an additional 1d4 Vile damage from the Smite.
    • Echoes of Evil: Targets taking damage from a Vile Smite must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Con modifier) or take half the damage of the original smite again the next round (1 point Vile damage and the same amount of non-Vile damage they took the first round). If they fail their save, they must save again next round, and so on, although the saving throw DC decreases by 3 per round. Special: If you have the Vile Frenzy augment, use the highest-damage hit, not the total of all of them.
    • Corrupting Smite: Additionally, when making a Vile Smite the Corrupted One may choose to take 2 Con damage to taint its target, rendering it vulnerable to Vile damage. If the Vile Smite hits, the target must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Con modifier- use the Corrupted One's full Con score, before taking the Con damage used to activate this ability). On a successful save, the target takes an additional (1 per 4 HD) Vile damage whenever it takes Vile damage. On a failed save, the target takes an additional (1d4 per 4 HD) Vile damage whenever it takes Vile damage. Non-evil creatures within the area of a consecrate or hallow spell automatically make their save, and any creature within the area of a desecrate or unhallow spell takes a -5 penalty to their save.
      In any case, this effect lasts for 1 minute per HD, unless the creature has both Regeneration and the Good subtype, in which case it lasts 1 round per HD.
      This is considered a supernatural effect; it is suppressed when within an antimagic field, or consecrated or hallowed area. It cannot be removed by dispel magic, but it can be removed by dispel evil.


    I'm afraid some of the augments may be a little too strong, particularly Vile Frenzy, Echoes of Evil, Corrupting Smite, and Impervious to Impervious-ness. Should I add a HD prerequisite?

    Bonus points if you can tell where the name for the first Smite augment comes from

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    Dunno. Smiting isn't that interesting, and doesn't really change up the playstyle. Most of the augments listed don't do much, either.

    Just throwing one idea out there, but what about a melee debuffer? Just throwing ideas out there, but...

    Corrupted Tooth and Nail: With level 1 in the class, your natural attacks deal vile damage. You can opt out of the vile damage to corrupt your enemy with each natural attack. This gives them a cumulative -1 to AC and a -1 to all saves each time you deal the damage.

    Depraved Frenzy: At second level, you enter a twitching mad frenzy for several heartbeats, catching foes off guard. As a swift action declared before you make any full-round, move or standard actions, you gain the ability to make an additional standard action that round, but until the end of your next turn, you take double damage and for any saving throws or skill checks you roll, you must reroll and take the lower result.

    Vile Power: At third level, you gain a spell like ability with the evil, infernal, darkness, necromancy, abyssal or vile type or school. You can use a standard action to deliver this SLA alongside a natural attack, provided it is a spell that requires an attack roll (including ray and touch attacks). The spell takes effect after the attack damage and effects are calculated, so the saving throw uses any penalties imposed as a consequence of Corrupted Tooth and Nail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Depraved Frenzy: At second level, you enter a twitching mad frenzy for several heartbeats, catching foes off guard. As a swift action declared before you make any full-round, move or standard actions, you gain the ability to make an additional standard action that round, but until the end of your next turn, you take double damage and for any saving throws or skill checks you roll, you must reroll and take the lower result.
    Go-go best caster dip ever, EVER! Or, well, best standard-action-using-character dip ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Go-go best caster dip ever, EVER! Or, well, best standard-action-using-character dip ever.
    I'm just brainstorming. It'd be up to the monster creator to get it balanced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Go-go gadget best caster dip ever, EVER!
    Fixed it for you.
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    The spellcasting in the "Corrupter Initiate" class feature of the Succubus is a bit unclear to me, and the example isn't helping much. Can someone explain it?
    Corrupter initiate: If she multiclasses for an arcane/divince class she can count her succubus levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a succubus 3 who took 1 level of sorceror could choose to have CL 4, get 3 2nd level spell slots, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd level spell known and 1 0th level spell known. She wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however. She would get the familiar ability, but succubus levels wouldn't count for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    I /think/ it means that you would only get the new slots of a Sorc 4.

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    I've previously gone through and changed the spelling errors (which were embarrassingly more plentiful than I had anticipated) so I'm just addressing the other aspects of the critique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Marrash
    • First level is a little dry. You get some flight and Marrash Body with some innate benefits, but you can't really do anything at that point.
    I have a thought here, I'll being it up after I've responded to some related aspects.

    • Rename Body of Disease to Marrash Body? Having something nonspecific like Body of Disease creates confusion if another monster uses the same ability name, and you gestalt, for example.
    Done

    • Personally, while it's technically fine, I'd prefer to see Flight as a separate ability at 5th level, rather than be granted with scaling for a 1 level dip.
    I'm actually leaning in that direction myself after having thought about it, though I do like having the small bonuses for having wings at first. So, essentially I'll be splitting the ability.

    [list][*]Disease Carrier:
    • "Instead each one tracks its strains" -> what does "each one" refer to?
    • "and not be able to trap any more diseases." - what if I want to replace an old, retained disease with a newly acquired one?
    • "This DC is equal to the higher of the disease's base DC or 10 + half the Marrash's HD + constitution modifier" - just make it 10 + 1/2 HD + con mod.
    • "but continues to use the DC it rolled against to contract it." - why?
    • "each attempt at infection lowers the amount of held strains by one for that disease." - this sounds like an incredible pain in the arse. How many sources of disease are there, really? Disease isn't that useful to a PC, so you're effectively building a slightly tougher melee warlock that trades away invocations for diseases that are less effective & harder to keep a decent storage of.
    It looks like I need to rework the ability some, so all of these points will be accounted for in the changes.

    [quote
    • Disease Sense:
      • "allowing them to be aware of contaminated creatures and objects nearby. His senses" - you change focus here, from plural to singular. Them, their, all Marrashi to 'His'.
      • "and the number of contaminated subjects within 30ft plus an aditional 5ft for every point that the disease's DC exceedes 10." -> sounds like a right pain to keep track of.
      • "plus an aditional 5ft" -> additional.
      • "but cannot pinpoint position exactly unless within 5ft" -> missing a word/words. "but cannot pinpoint the victim's position exactly unless they are within 5'.
      • Why can't he pinpoint their position exactly? It's like an inferior scent.
    [quote]

    Fair enough, changed.

    • Intensify Infection:
      • I don't know that I like it being a swift action, but can live with it.
      • I dont' like per-encounter abilities either.
      • "Regardless of the diseases save DC, this save an all future ones against" -> disease's, and all future ones.
      • "by the target" -> unnecessary. Delete.
      • "This ability also allows a Marrash to grow adition strains of diseases he has trapped. Once per day a Marrash can add an aditional strain to every disease he's carrying." -> additional, for both. Far too little, as far as ability to replenish disease stock.
    I'm going to rework the ability a bit so that it fits with the reworking of the other disease related aspects.

    [list][*]Draw Disease:
    • "He makes a saving throw against the diseases DC" -> delete all mention of this. Use a standard DC, as determined by Marrash HD/con mod. Using the disease's DC will just make for a lot of bookkeeping and diseases that are too lame/too powerful for your level.
    Maybe I misworded something, but the diseases base DC is only use here for when you encounter the disease. It doesn't have to be recorded beyond the disease information, which should be handy, so there's no additional bookkeeping. Regardless, I'm going to rework this a bit along with the other disease abilities.

    • Double Bowfire:
      • With every attack? Attacks of opportunity? Maneuvers?
    AoOs? Yes. Maneuvers? I hadn't thought about specific interaction there... Though my thoughts is that the arrows would just be a normal arrows in so far as damage and attack, maneuver effects being attached to the other.

    • Takliff Curse:
      • Kind of underwhelming as a capstone. It's a disease with no effects, that can affect disease immune foes, preventing resurrection & turning dead enemies into disease immune (which is your whole schtick) Marrashi with a grudge against you?


    Overall, kind of weak. It's far too hard to get diseases, and too easy to spend them, provided you want to do anything with your class features. I mean, assuming 13.3 encounters a level, how many of those encounters feature foes with disease attacks? Now weigh that against the fact that you've then got to hit them or get them to hit you, to take in the disease. That gets you one use, which you may well spend in a subsequent encounter...

    Which might be worth it if diseases were worthwhile, but they aren't. You can shorten the incubation period, which makes it ability damage with potential saving throws to cancel it (compare to other creatures in this project who deal ability damage in a very matter of fact way with their attacks).

    To plug my own work, consider looking at Gravetouched Ghoul. There's a list of disease buffs the Ghoul could pick from under Ghoul Fever, that might suit the Marrash.

    Beyond that, there's the element of passivity. The Marrash doesn't do a whole lot, beyond attack & occasionally receive/transfer diseases, or add an extra arrow in there somewhere.
    I'll be looking at the ghoul and then I'll head back to the Marrash and see if I can't liven it up a bit then.

    I had figured that if a PC wanted to find diseases it may not be that hard, especially with a way to detect them, but with your comments it's clear I need to revisit the related abilities. Thanks for the critique, this was a bit of unfamiliar territory so the direction is very helpful.

    EDIT: On the Takliff curse:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrash
    Saving throws against the disease are made every other round after infection, and the disease deals 1d4 points points of damage to the creature's highest ability score for every failure. Though if the creature makes two successful saving throws in a row it does not make any more for one minute, unless subjected to the Intensify Infection ability of a Marrash after which is resumes making saves again as normal.
    I did include effects, but I'll be looking at it a bit more along with the other abilities.
    Last edited by Zemro; 2011-02-08 at 07:45 PM.
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    Arcadian Avenger|Thorn|Marrash|Justice Archon

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    Quote Originally Posted by master256 View Post
    The spellcasting in the "Corrupter Initiate" class feature of the Succubus is a bit unclear to me, and the example isn't helping much. Can someone explain it?
    It's confusing, but what it means is that you'd get the added spell slots, spells known and spells per day you'd earn for progressing from 3rd level to 4th. You don't retroactively get the spells known/spell slots you'd have gained if you took levels 1-3 in the sorceress class. You'd add up your sorcerer and succubus levels to determine Caster Level.

    So take the number in the 4th level row of the spells known & spells per day tables. Subtract each result by numbers in the 3rd level row, above. That's what you'd gain in terms of spells known or spells per day. The same applies to spell slots as a wizard.

    What this means is that, if you're a 17th level succubus and you take a level in sorceress, you're gaining 9th level spells, not 1st level spells, keeping you far more relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    It's confusing, but what it means is that you'd get the added spell slots, spells known and spells per day you'd earn for progressing from 3rd level to 4th. You don't retroactively get the spells known/spell slots you'd have gained if you took levels 1-3 in the sorceress class. You'd add up your sorcerer and succubus levels to determine Caster Level.

    So take the number in the 4th level row of the spells known & spells per day tables. Subtract each result by numbers in the 3rd level row, above. That's what you'd gain in terms of spells known or spells per day. The same applies to spell slots as a wizard.

    What this means is that, if you're a 17th level succubus and you take a level in sorceress, you're gaining 9th level spells, not 1st level spells, keeping you far more relevant.
    What happens if your Sorceress levels catch up to Succubus levels? (In this example, if a Succubus 3 took 4 Sorceress levels) Do the spells stack or overlap?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    You would ONLY have the stuff gained from 4th-7th level.

    It's stupid and ass backwards if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    You would ONLY have the stuff gained from 4th-7th level.

    It's stupid and ass backwards if you ask me.
    No, it's actually quite clever, just inelegant. How else would you propose to allow halfway decent multiclassing for classes that really should be casters? One of the big things in this project is making classes viable beyond the run of their levels. Sometimes, with stuff like the giants, it's easy. With stuff like the succubus, it's pretty damn hard.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2011-02-08 at 08:04 PM.
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    Succubus is broken anyways. Buff Cha to obscene levels and you can safely destroy everything ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Succubus is broken anyways. Buff Cha to obscene levels and you can safely destroy everything ever.
    Granted, but what about everything else that uses the spellcasting multiclassing rule?
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