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  1. - Top - End - #1141
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kobold-Bard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Quick question.

    These monster classes count as racial hit dice, right?
    No, they count as hit dice. Since they're classes.

    I thought anyway. Why?
    Piratebold-Bard by Elder Tsofu | Backer #121 of the Giantitp Kickstarter | My homebrew
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    New law: Obey me or you'll be crushed by a MOUNTAIN.

  2. - Top - End - #1142
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    No, they count as hit dice. Since they're classes.
    Pretty much, yeah. When it comes to monster classes, the term "racial hit dice" doesn't exist.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  3. - Top - End - #1143
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Well, that makes certain aspects of the half dragon both more useful and at the same time, less flavorful. Ah well.

  4. - Top - End - #1144
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    If I were doing it and I felt like I had the room in the class, I might make a wide selection of potential dragons to make your parent dragon. The weaker abilities (Force Breath Weapon > Fire Breath Weapon) would come with the dragon type while the powerful ones (See Force Breath) would take the lesser type (Whatever your other parent was, usually humanoid probably).

    Since it's a PrC you can grab the Dragon Disciple's "Any non-dragon" prereq. I always liked that pre-req.

    EDIT: < Not nominating myself to do the class, just stating what came to mind when racial hit dice were mentioned.

    Too bad it's frowned upon to grab the d12, 6 skill points, and perfect saves.
    Last edited by Bloody Initiate; 2011-03-04 at 06:03 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #1145
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    -Formally Withdrawn-
    Last edited by NineThePuma; 2011-03-27 at 08:39 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #1146
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Okay. So... Your Half Dragon... it's a little... bland? I mean, pretty much all of its abilities are passive. The only one that is active is the breath weapon... which, I'll note, is pretty much just as powerful as a full dragon's breath weapon. Eh?
    Anyways... would you mind if I just put up my revision? I mean, I was almost done with it anyways. If not, 'scool, I was the one who offered for you to take over the class to begin with.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2011-03-04 at 06:14 PM.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  7. - Top - End - #1147
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Well, I just had a bit of an embarrassment. The other night I had some thoughts about doing Feral Creature, typed it up, and I just now gotten it about ready to post. I went googling for the appropriate image, and... found the existing monster class. Whoops! Somehow I missed it when I was going through the list.

    Is it incredibly bad etiquette to post my version? Should I let sleeping dogs lie? Does anyone care?

  8. - Top - End - #1148
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    Well, I just had a bit of an embarrassment. The other night I had some thoughts about doing Feral Creature, typed it up, and I just now gotten it about ready to post. I went googling for the appropriate image, and... found the existing monster class. Whoops! Somehow I missed it when I was going through the list.

    Is it incredibly bad etiquette to post my version? Should I let sleeping dogs lie? Does anyone care?
    Ask Niezck. Perhaps you could collaborate on a new and improved version?
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  9. - Top - End - #1149
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Of course not. ^^ While it's on a first come first serve basis, that's like saying we can't take a whole bunch of soul knife fixes and take the best abilities of them all and make one super soul knife that everyone loves.

    Also, Yeah, it's passive, because it's a TEMPLATE class. Theoretically, you're applying it to something else that's active. Honestly, dragons themselves aren't really that active. But I suppose it falls into the same pit as the usual 2 level classes. There's really not a lot of space to build on.

  10. - Top - End - #1150
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Well, I sent off a message. I mean, I'm aware I could just go "ARHARHAR LICK A GOBLIN MATES I'M GONNA POST IT ANYWAY" but I'd rather not be rude. It's just a dang D&D thing.

    Edit: The response was "Go ahead, I don't mind seeing an alternative posted rather than a replacement." So.. I'mma postin'.
    Last edited by Benly; 2011-03-04 at 07:01 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #1151
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Centaur

    Monster Class
    Monster Manual/SRD

    Class:
    Spoiler
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    HD: D8

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
    Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Centaur Body, Hinterlands Courser, Wilds Skirmisher, +1 Str

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    | Hinterlands Survivor, Wilds Hunter, +5' base movement, +1 Str, +1 Dex

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Growth, Wilds Reaver, +5' base movement, +1 Str, +1 Con[/table]

    Skills Points: (6+Intelligence Modifier), x4 at ECL 1.
    Class Skills: The Centaur’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nature, Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex).

    Proficiencies: The Centaur is proficient in the use of simple weapons, the longsword and the longbow. It is not proficient in armor or shields.

    Centaur Body: The Centaur loses all other racial bonuses and gains Monstrous Humanoid traits, granting it Darkvision out to 60'. The Centaur is initially a Medium sized creature with a base movement speed of 40'. He gains +5' of movement with every level in the class after the first, up to 50' base movement speed at 3rd level. The Centaur is is a four legged creature that possesses a Hoof attack as a primary natural weapon that deals 1d4 + ½ Str mod damage. He has natural armor equal to his Con mod. The Centaur speaks Common and either Sylvan or Elven as starting languages, with additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.

    Attribute Bonus: The Centaur gains +1 to Str with every level in the class, +1 to Dex at 2nd level and +1 to Con at 3rd level for a total bonus of +3 Str, +1 Dex and +1 Con at 3rd level.

    Hinterlands Courser (Ex): The first level Centaur is an able traveler of the most dangerous and hazardous landscapes. Born to a landscape of thick woodlands, brush, rocky outcroppings, ice or ruins, the Centaur can ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain when he is moving normally (however, he may not run or charge across such without issue). If the Centaur begins or ends his turn on difficult or dangerous terrain, the effects of that terrain apply as normal. Hinterlands Courser only applies to nonmagical terrain features, but in the event that the Centaur acquires Woodland Stride from a feat or levels in another class, Hinterlands Courser is augmented to include magical terrain effects that would impede him (such as an Entangle spell). Obstructions that would bar the Centaur's movement entirely, such as a wall of stone, operate as normal.

    Wilds Skirmisher (Ex): The first level Centaur is a skilled hunter within his territory, capable of traversing the landscape with great ease and striking with surprising force. The Centaur counts himself as both a mounted combatant and a mount at any time that such would be beneficial, namely for the purposes of feats, class features, items, magic items and spells that could affect a mounted rider or a steed. The Centaur is treated as having the maximum allowed ranks in Ride for his effective character level at all times for the purposes of qualifying for feats or prestige classes.

    The Centaur adds Tromp and Trample to the list of abilities he can employ in combat:
    Spoiler
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    • Tromp and Trample: The Centaur advances, rearing up with his hooves to strike at a foe, forcing them down and crushing them under his hooves as he leaps into their space, kicking and stamping at them as he shoves past. The Centaur may, upon dealing damage with his hooves to a foe of an equal or smaller size relative to his own, expend his 5' step to move over the enemy's space and into the space on the opposite side of the struck opponent. Doing so allows the Centaur to deal hoof damage to that foe a second time with no attack roll needed.

      At 4HD, the Centaur that Tromps and Tramples an opponent does not need to utilize a 5' step if his hoof attack was delivered as part of a Seeker's Strike (described in Wilds Hunter, below) or a charge. He moves through/over the enemy as described above.

      At 10HD, the Centaur that Tromps and Tramples an opponent can move into any square adjacent to that opponent, rather than just the square on the opposite side of the foe.

      At 16HD, a Centaur that Tromps and Tramples a foe forces a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ HD + Centaur's Str mod or Dex mod, whichever is higher), with the opponent being knocked prone and taking double damage from the second hoof attack if they fail.

    Hinterlands Survivor (Ex): Centaurs are warriors of nature, born to thrive as a hunter people in any harsh wilderness. Starting at second level, the Centaur treats any environmental effect (wind, rain, snow, heat and cold) as being one step more forgiving than it is (so severe cold would become cold, cold would be treated as comfortable temperature). This reduction in effect applies to ranged attacks only if the foe falls within one range increment, with any penalty to attack applying as normal thereafter. Hinterlands Survivor applies to any weather effect, regardless of whether the effect is natural, supernatural or magical in nature.

    At 7HD, the Centaur is under the effects of a constant, extraordinary Endure Elements effect. This benefit stacks with the Hinterlands Survivor ability, reducing the effect of extreme conditions by one step before determining whether it would fall under the range of permissible temperatures allowed for by Endure Elements.

    At 13HD, the Centaur gains resistance to either Fire or Cold damage equal to ½ his HD.

    At 19HD, the Centaur acquires whatever resistance he did not gain at 13HD, above.

    Wilds Hunter (Ex): Upon reaching 2nd level the Centaur is capable of demonstrating adeptness at bringing down dangerous prey. The Centaur adds Seeker's Strike and Felling Shot to the abilities he may employ in combat:
    Spoiler
    Show
    • Seeker's Strike: The Centaur sprints headlong towards a foe, weapon aimed for a vital area as he brings incredible momentum to bear with the strike. Even for those foes who are lucky enough to have their armor take the blow, the effects can be terrible. Treat this attack as a charge in all respects and requirements, except for the following: The Centaur must move at least 20', he gains no bonus to hit and takes no penalty to AC. This does not count as a charge for the purposes of gaining bonuses from other class features, feats, spells or magic items. As such, leap attack, shock trooper or magic items that would augment charges do not augment Seeker's Strike.

      If successful in striking the foe, the attack delivers a bonus 1d6 points of raw attack damage for every 3HD the Centaur has and the foe is rendered shaken for 1d3 rounds. If the attack misses, but the Centaur's attack roll is sufficient to strike the foe's touch AC, the Centaur delivers the full attack damage to the opponent's shield, modified by hardness as normal. If the foe bears no shield, the attack strikes and damages their armor instead. Against unarmored opponents or against foes with only natural armor, the missed attack deals half damage, provided it would have hit their touch AC. Seeker's Strike cannot damage or destroy items that have a higher enhancement bonus than the Centaur's own weapon.

      Weapons or armor that are brought to 0 hitpoints by Seeker's Strike are rendered ineffective, ceasing to grant benefits while still imposing any relevant penalties until dropped or removed. Such items are not utterly destroyed unless targeted and struck again. Items ruined by Seeker's Strike may be repaired by a blacksmith or a wizard as normal. Seeker's Strike is not effective against opponents that lack a vital area to target, and as such, cannot deliver the bonus damage, shaken or the dazed condition (described below) to opponents immune to critical hits.

      At 5HD, the Centaur deals 150% damage to struck shields or armor when using Seeker's Strike and he still applies the shaken condition to creatures with natural armor, provided he at least hits their touch AC.

      At 11HD, the Centaur may elect to impose a -4 penalty to his attack roll. Doing so allows the Centaur to daze a successfully struck foe for one round rather than render them shaken.

      At 17HD, the Centaur deals double damage when damaging shields or armor with Seeker's Strike, and deals full damage (but not the ability's bonus damage), when using Seeker's Strike against a creature with natural armor, provided he hits their touch AC.
      .
    • Felling Shot: Centaurs are hunters in a wilderness characterized by the most terrible magical beasts. Centaur archers thus learn through necessity how to place their arrows in such a way that they can drop even the most heavily scaled or unnatural foes. Felling shot allows a Centaur to apply a -3 penalty to his ranged attack rolls for the turn in exchange for increasing his critical threat range by two (For example, a -3 penalty would extend a 19-20 critical threat range to 17-20, a -6 penalty would extend it to 15-20) for each attack made. This may be done multiple times, to a maximum number of times equal to the Centaur's Dexterity mod. The benefits of Felling Shot stack with itself and with effects that augment critical threat range, such as the Keen magic weapon property. The adjustments of Felling Shot are applied after any other critical-augmenting effects such as the Keen weapon property.

      At 8HD, the Centaur gains the ability to apply Power Attack to any ranged weapon that applies strength to damage rolls (this includes longbows, even though they only apply penalties). Ranged weapons that require two hands to fire (such as longbows) count as two handed weapons for the purposes of the feat, while most throwing weapons (such as javelins) do not.

      At 14HD the Centaur reduces the penalty for each iteration of Felling Shot to -2. He reduces it again at 20HD to -1.
    Growth (Ex): A third level Centaur grows to Large (long) size. His reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties.

    Wilds Reaver (Ex): The third level Centaur is master of combat on the open plains, capable of tearing through the enemy with surprising efficacy, be it up close or from afar. He adds the Ironshod Advance and the Thin the Herd combat options to his repertoire:
    Spoiler
    Show
    • Ironshod Advance: The Centaur dashes through enemy ranks, cutting them down as he tears across the terrain. A full round action, Ironshod Advance allows the Centaur to make a standard movement. This movement cannot carry the Centaur through difficult terrain, magical or otherwise, and the Centaur may only make a single turn of up to 90 degrees during the movement.

      Until the end of his turn, if the Centaur's movement would provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe with equal or lower BAB relative to his own, the Centaur instead delivers a free attack against that foe. The Centaur may only deliver one attack to each foe in this manner in a given round, and he may only use Ironshod Advance to deliver a total number of attacks equal to his Str mod or his Dex mod, whichever is higher. Should the Centaur be unable to attack, whether due to a status condition, spell or a lack of remaining attacks, he provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

      At 6HD, the Centaur provokes no attacks of opportunity from foes he has already struck as part of Ironshod advance. Such foes still effectively provoke the Centaur for the purposes of further attacks (See the 12HD and 18HD benefits below).

      At 12HD, the Centaur may expand the number of attacks made. Whilst using Ironshod Advance, the Centaur may either make two attacks in total against each foe provoked during the movement or he may make three attacks in total against a single foe. In either event, each attack the Centaur makes must be triggered (That is, the Centaur taking an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity) individually.

      At 18HD, a Centaur using Ironshod Advance may make any number of attacks against a given foe as part of his movement and is only limited in the total number of attacks made in a turn by his Str or Dex mod. As such, any movement that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity from a foe with equal/lower BAB relative to the Centaur's own allows the Centaur the option of making a free attack instead, to a maximum number equal to his Str or Dex mod, with no further restrictions. Each attack must still be provoked individually, with the Centaur taking an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity.
      .
    • Thin the Herd: The Centaur fires a barrage of arrows as he rides past, with carefully placed arrows aimed at finishing off the weaker among the enemy ranks. The Centaur uses a ranged weapon to deliver a standard-action attack against every foe within a cone. This has a maximum range of one range increment and the Centaur may pick a maximum number of foes to target equal to his Dex mod. If the Centaur's ranged weapon applies Str to damage (this includes longbows, even though they only apply penalties), the Centaur may elect to use his Str mod to determine the maximum number of targets, instead. The Centaur makes one additional attack against each struck foe that had less hitpoints than the Centaur before the Thin the Herd barrage was fired. Additional attacks made against low health foes do not count against the Centaur's maximum number of shots. Should the Centaur move during his turn, he may deliver this attack in the midst of the movement.

      At 9HD, anytime he uses Thin the Herd, the Centaur may choose between extending the area of the attack to 180 degrees or to increase the range to two range increments (with a penalty to attack as normal). Further, the Centaur makes the additional attack against any struck foes who had less hitpoints than the Centaur after the initial round of Thin the Herd shots have been made.

      At 15HD each use of Thin the Herd allows a choice from among three options: both of the 9HD options at the same time, a burst extending outward from the Centaur, or three range increments. Finally, the Centaur delivers one additional attack against any struck foes with less than a quarter of their maximum hitpoints remaining. This is in addition to the cone attack and the additional attacks made against foes with less hitpoints than the Centaur.

      Note that any additional attacks gained against low health foes when using Thin the Herd do not provide precision-based damage (such as Sneak attack die). If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired at each target deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage. Thin the Herd is focused more on quantity of attacks than quality and thus cannot be used alongside Felling Shot (and as such grants no bonus to critical chance nor power attack adjustments).


    Comments
    Spoiler
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    A revision, aimed at replacing this old, outdated and somewhat disappointing rendition.

    The Centaur is an archetype of Fantasy, common to any number of card games, video games, tabletop games, and the like. That said, it's rather easily overlooked as a monster in D&D.

    As far as inspirations, my favorite depictions of the centaurs are those in Guild Wars, especially the revised version for Guild Wars 2 (see pic, above). I'm aware of there being some precedent for the Centaur in 2nd edition novellas, and I went out of my way to ensure that I allowed for such as much as I sold the 'centaurs as creatures of the wild' bit, I allowed for the centaur chevaliers in noble courts. All in all, though, the Centaur is a warrior of nature, adept hunter of beast and monstrous humanoid alike. The Wilds Skirmisher/Hunter/Reaver abilities give you attack options I feel are flavorful, representing the Centaur nature, fighting style and culture. I divided the attack options between general utility (Tromp and Trample), taking on lone foes (Seeker's Strike, Felling Shot) and groups (Ironshod Advance, Thin the Herd) for Wilds Skirmisher, Wilds Hunter and Wilds Reaver, respectively.

    The only thing that bugs me is that the Centaur is supposed to have reason to go into Druid, and I couldn't make that work, really (it does remain a good way to get Woodland Stride for synergy with Hinterlands Courser, though). As is, it is well suited for entry into initiator classes (White raven would be a good fit flavorwise) or Scout. I'm content enough with that.


    Changelog
    Spoiler
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    Changes, March 4th, 2011:
    • Clarified a little on the things that apply to additional shots from

    Changes, March 5th, 2011:
    • Wilds Skirmisher now also grants the Centaur maximum ranks in Ride for qualifying for feats or prestige classes.
    • I clarified Ironshod Advance by removing mention of the Centaur's bonus attacks being attacks of opportunity. They're now simply free attacks.
    • Clarified Tromp and Trample flavor text.
    • Added to class skills (added handle animal, intimidate, use rope)
    • Removed 'only' from Knowledge (Nature only, Int)
    • Buffed Felling Shot to make it more tempting. Each iteration now bumps your crit threat range by two rather than one (ie. from /20 to /18-20 rather than just 20 to /19-20).
    • Clarified the one-handed vs. two handed ranged weapon for the power attack enhancement of Felling Shot.
    • Clarified the action type of Thin the Herd. Clarified that the additional attacks referred to as not gaining precision damage are just the ones against low health foes.
    • Replaced erroneous mention of flatfooted AC in Seeker's Strike with touch ac.
    • It's keeping the longbow. Using a longbow on a horse is nigh impossible, as the SRD notes, but the centaur is less of a 'rider with a horse's shoulders/neck/head in front of him and more of a 'tall person who runs very fast and just happens to have a horse's hindquarters'. That, and the longbow Str adjustment is useful for several abilities (power attack, thin the herd).

    Changes, March 14, 2011:
    • Changed save progression from Good Reflex/Will, Bad Fort to Good Fort/Reflex, Bad Will.
    • Clarified that the x4 skill points were granted at 1st only.
    • Clarified proficiencies to stress it gets no armor proficiencies.
    • Specified abilities as being (Ex).
    • Wilds Skirmisher now states the Centaur counts as being both a mounted rider and a mount at any time it would be beneficial (previously was just mounted rider). This now allows the centaur to wear horseshoes of speed and the like.
    • Clarified about ranged attacks and the effect of wind (or rain) to such. As of now, ranged attacks have reduced penalties only for the first range increment.
    • Seeker's Strike can no longer damage items with a higher enhancement bonus than the Centaur's own weapon.
    • Stated that the crit benefit of Felling Shot is applied after the Keen effects and the like.
    • Simplified Ironshod Advance, stating the Centaur may only make one turn during the movement, up to 90 degrees.
    • Ironshod Advance no longer grants +2 to hit and -1 AC, simplifying it some and making it a touch more balanced.
    • Changed wording of 12HD advancement of Ironshod Advance.
    • Expanded the wording of 18HD advancement of Ironshod Advance to hopefully make it clearer.
    • Clarified some wording on Thin the Herd, as it was ambiguous whether it referred to foes having less health than they did prior to having an arrow stuck in 'em or foes having less health than the Centaur (it was intended to be the latter).
    • Wording changed in Thin the Herd so the Centaur now picks a number of targets equal to his Dex mod. Less ambiguous about what happens when you have less shots than you have targets.
    • Thin the Herd no longer allows for precision based damage. (sneak attack, etc.)
    • Thin the Herd no longer works alongside Felling Shot.
    • Changed wording to stress that the choice at 9HD of Thin the Herd is made anytime you make the attack.
    • Ditto for 15HD.
    • Many thanks to Zemro Shivic for the feedback leading to all of the changes today.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-03-14 at 08:00 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #1152
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Edit: Nothing to see here, Citizen. Move along.
    Last edited by Benly; 2011-03-05 at 12:46 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #1153
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    So I like the Centaur's idea. I haven't gone over it in detail, but a point springs out: Thin The Herd is unclear about what damage benefits it does and doesn't apply. It doesn't give extra damage from a shocking weapon: does it get enhancement bonuses? Bane bonuses? Composite longbow Strength bonuses?

  14. - Top - End - #1154
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    I won't be doing a batch critique tonight since my connectivity is really wonky as of late. Just had two hours without a usable connection. I'll get hours of time where I'm fine, then it'll drop and web pages will either not load or load like it's a 12kb/s connection, and instant messages won't consistently go through. I just recovered from the latter stage and don't know how long it'll hold up.

    @Benly - I'll clarify some as far as Thin the Herd goes. I had a brief period of internet lucidity and I just wanted to post what I had and get a solid version down before my internet went wonky again.

    Re: Feral Creature, I'm kind of annoyed that, when I discussed the subject of being interested in doing that very creature with Gorgon a week and a half ago, we agreed it wasn't in urgent demand of an remake. Then, in a relatively short span of time when I'm unable to reply, someone else asks, gets permission from Gorgon & posts said creature.

    On the subject of the monster itself, max level should = CR. This is covered in the guide & the FAQ. There's no reason for the Feral creature to be different (and the old Feral creature was on target with 4 levels). I won't get into more depth because that's unfair to the people who actually followed instructions and are awaiting critiques.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-03-04 at 08:47 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #1155
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Re: Feral Creature, I'm kind of annoyed that, when I discussed the subject of being interested in doing that very creature with Gorgon a week and a half ago, we agreed it wasn't in urgent demand of an remake. Then, in a relatively short span of time when I'm unable to reply, someone else asks, gets permission from Gorgon & posts said creature.

    On the subject of the monster itself, max level should = CR. This is covered in the guide & the FAQ. There's no reason for the Feral creature to be different (and the old Feral creature was on target with 4 levels). I won't get into more depth because that's unfair to the people who actually followed instructions and are awaiting critiques.
    I understand that you're angry because you were considering reworking it yourself. I only wrote it up and posted it because I failed to see it on the list, I admitted this when I saw it on the list and that I made a mistake, and I posted it because I was curious and wanted to get it out of my systems, only after asking the original poster and asking in the thread if this was a breach of etiquette. I have admitted the mistake involved, I don't want to offend anyone, but I didn't know you were considering it and I apologize if I have caused offense.

    Regarding its level, the FAQ and guidelines are not clear regarding templates with variable CR, which Feral Creature explicitly has. I did not violate the design guidelines, I interpreted them as best I could: I gave it the low-end CR adjustment and then gave it abilities that unlock over time. I do not believe I violated the rules or guidelines, but I am sorry that I posted a creature that you had been hoping to discuss revising. I can take it back down if you think this is a problem.
    Last edited by Benly; 2011-03-04 at 08:49 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #1156
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by Benly View Post
    I understand that you're angry because you were considering reworking it yourself. I only wrote it up and posted it because I failed to see it on the list, I admitted I saw it on the list and made a mistake, and I posted it because I was curious and wanted to get it out of my systems. I have admitted the mistake involved, I don't want to offend anyone, but I didn't know you were considering it and I apologize if I have caused offense.
    My annoyance (not anger) is largely directed at Gorgon. We'd discussed and agreed that there was no call for the Feral Creature to be redone, and there's meant to be a process (outlined in past posts) for going about the whole 'revising previously done monsters' bit.

    That said, he didn't explicitly give you permission, either. He suggested it would be a good plan to rework it in concert with Niezck, rather than repost it yourself. I can't know his reasoning or intent until I speak to him, though. Don't rush to action one way or another. Give me a chance to talk to him and discuss it first. That'll also give me a chance to chill out, since part of my annoyance is likely spillover from wrestling with my internet connection and dealing with Eastern Indian customer support.

    Regarding its level, the FAQ and guidelines are not clear regarding templates with variable CR, which Feral Creature explicitly has. I did not violate the design guidelines, I interpreted them as best I could: I gave it the low-end CR adjustment and then gave it abilities that unlock over time. I do not believe I violated the rules or guidelines, but I am sorry that I posted a creature that you had been hoping to discuss revising. I can take it back down if you think this is a problem.
    No, you're right, the outlines aren't clear with variable CR. In which case, a good approach would have been to either check other accepted work (ie. Half Celestial) or ask in the thread.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-03-04 at 09:11 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #1157
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    ... >>

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    Just as an aside, and half on target about The Issue Of Dragons, I started working on a [url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10495255#post10495255]Black Dragon Monster Class[/color] based on the Pathfinder version of the creature. It can be found in our Homebrew Spinoff. Right now it is only at Wyrmling status, but I intend to add additional classes that add additional age categories to the dragon.

  18. - Top - End - #1158
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    Daemon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    My annoyance (not anger) is largely directed at Gorgon. We'd discussed and agreed that there was no call for the Feral Creature to be redone, and there's meant to be a process (outlined in past posts) for going about the whole 'revising previously done monsters' bit.

    That said, he didn't explicitly give you permission, either. He suggested it would be a good plan to rework it in concert with Niezck, rather than repost it yourself. I can't know his reasoning or intent until I speak to him, though. Don't rush to action one way or another. Give me a chance to talk to him and discuss it first. That'll also give me a chance to chill out, since part of my annoyance is likely spillover from wrestling with my internet connection and dealing with Eastern Indian customer support.
    You have my sympathy on the internet issues; I know that can cause some serious headaches. Regarding the idea of coauthoring, I really have a lot of trouble coauthoring things with people I don't know, especially when it's material I'm relatively inexperienced with - part of the reason I did Feral at all is because it's a template I know pretty well, and I've been wanting to get practice with compressed classes before moving into larger projects. When I messaged Niezck, his suggestion was that I post as an alternate version, so I did that.

    I'm not attached to seeing my Feral Creature version become part of The Project - it was sort of a practice thing to start with, and I wouldn't have done it if I'd realized a version was already done.


    No, you're right, the outlines aren't clear with variable CR. In which case, a good approach would have been to either check other accepted work (ie. Half Celestial) or ask in the thread.
    Fair enough. I tend to think of Feral, rightly or wrongly, as a fairly compressed template due to its low LA, so that probably played into how I chose to approach its CR. Even as it stands, my version could certainly be expanded to a two-level class or so - I feel like three or four is a little much.

  19. - Top - End - #1159
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    On the subject of the Feral Creature: sorry? I don't see what the big deal was. There wasn't a call for it in either sense... and if you had finished the whole class yourself, I would've told you the same thing. But, as I remember it, you hadn't- you were just looking into doing it.
    'Sides, I never said "Yeah, go right ahead, whee!" I said ask what Niezck thinks about it and perhaps work on a collaborative version... which does not mean "yeah, sure, we need a revision and yours will be added to the list". It means if it's better we might as well and since you've already done the damn thing it wouldn't be wasting anyone's time to do so.
    As for the collaboration, hey, if the original maker wants to remake a monster with someone else's help I'm not going to stop either of them. I didn't suggest that with you because, frankly, your time would be better spent doing things that really need to be done (like the centaur and troll and minotaur and medusa n'sech) or things that will add to the project, like the Monstrous Spider. With less experienced folk like Benly, I'm just glad he's doing something and getting experience so as to rectify that title. Double standard? Yes. But I think I'm justified in it.
    So... yeah, that was my thought process there, and I think it would be unfair of you to be mad at me because of it. Hell, you might even be able to tell Benly some of your ideas for it and get them done and out there. Or do a straightup collaboration. Or, so long as it won't piss Benly off, just say "give it this ability". Or do it yourself, if you really want. I mean, I wasn't stopping you there, and I'm not stopping you now. Just giving you my honest opinion.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2011-03-04 at 09:51 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #1160
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    On Feral: Why not take a page from bloodlines and that ar-something dilletante that has weird requirements to advance?

    So you take a a level of Feral and gain decent scaling abilities, but they stunt unless you take another level of Feral in a few levels, and if you take those levels you also get a nice gem.

    Basically to stay impressively feral you have to go back to your feral ways every now and then. It keeps you from getting "too civilized".

    So your first level grabs you Improved grab. You can't take the second level until you have 3 HD.

    The second level grants you pounce and a bonus to your fast healing. You can't take the third level until you have 5 HD.

    The third level gives you Rake and some other unlockables. You can't take the fourth level until you have 7 HD.

    The fourth level gives you Rend and eventually, via HD minimums and advancement, an activateable power that partially counters FoM (Or your nice grapple character won't have anyone to grapple).

    That's just a rough suggestion, but all this stuff is supposed to scale with HD anyway, it doesn't seem unfair to keep some of the really nice stuff from unlocking without further investment.
    Last edited by Bloody Initiate; 2011-03-04 at 10:25 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #1161
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    Centaur Changes, March 4th, 2011:
    • Clarified a little on the things that apply to additional shots from Thin the Herd, taking a cue from Manyshot.


    Depending on what is happening with my internet connection, I'll see what I can do for the batch critique tomorrow or the day after. As far as the debates over undead skills known and the feral creature, I'm just tired of that stuff, so I'm taking a break from it and just focusing on the homebrewing/critiquing.

    Edit:
    Front Page Changes, March 4th, 2011:
    • Added Justice Archon, Coure Eladrin, Half Dragon, Centaur and Feral Creature to the unfinished list.

    To Be Critiqued
    • Gargoyle
    • Remorhaz
    • Jovoc
    • Vivisector
    • Aboleth
    • Phase Wasp
    • Violet Fungus
    • Chuul
    • Hooded Pupil
    • Phantom
    • Greenbound Creature et al.
    • Justice Archon
    • Coure Eladrin
    • Half Dragon
    • Unbodied & Pandorym skipped as they're psionic and under Gorgon's purview.
    • Skipping Ragewalker and Feral Creature as they are apparently WIP (noted as 'Waiting for better idea on induce blood frenzy' and only 1 level out of 4, respectively.
    • Briarvex, Half Golem, Gray Jester, Razor Boar, Black Dragon, Ettercap, Hellfire Wyrm, Corrupted Creature and Psurlon have not been updated since last batch critique. Will be skipping.
    • 14 critiques in all.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-03-04 at 11:36 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #1162
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Hmm. What I'm thinking of with Feral Creature is making it longer, and giving each level a fixed bonus and an extra Feral Evolution. If you take all four levels you'll probably end up with more than the original template gives you in total, but you won't be able to assemble the full list of the class's original abilities with one level and your bonus evolutions from HD.

  23. - Top - End - #1163
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Hyudra, could you put off critiquing the Aboleth? There's a good chance i'll be making heavy changes soon and I don't want you wasting your time looking at the old version.

  24. - Top - End - #1164
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Likewise, I'm just about to alter the Gargoyle and it's only not far from finished anyway. Feel free to leave it out to save time.

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    With regard to the Feral creature, I'd be happy to collaborate on an update or something. Equally, I'm happy for there to be alternative versions or whatever - the point of this project, as far as I'm aware, is to just get as many monsters statted up and balanced as is feasible. Whether they're alternatives of the same creature or not it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, go ahead with either.
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  26. - Top - End - #1166
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeckoKing View Post
    Hyudra, could you put off critiquing the Aboleth? There's a good chance i'll be making heavy changes soon and I don't want you wasting your time looking at the old version.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScionoftheVoid
    Likewise, I'm just about to alter the Gargoyle and it's only not far from finished anyway. Feel free to leave it out to save time.
    Sure. Thanks for the heads up. Makes it a little easier to go down the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niezck
    With regard to the Feral creature, I'd be happy to collaborate on an update or something. Equally, I'm happy for there to be alternative versions or whatever - the point of this project, as far as I'm aware, is to just get as many monsters statted up and balanced as is feasible. Whether they're alternatives of the same creature or not it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, go ahead with either.
    Ah, but I don't believe we are doing alternates. Given the amount of work that goes into finishing up a monster, it's kind of a poor use of time to do alternates if we're not advancing the project.

  27. - Top - End - #1167
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    Gorgondantess, I believe I've made all of the asked for changes to the Unbodied. Can you look it over again?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divide by Zero View Post
    Hulking Hurler can get something like (10^83)d6 damage, which is many orders of magnitude greater than the number of particles in the universe.
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    Homebrew!


    Wow, it's been a while. Sorry for the unexplained absence!

  28. - Top - End - #1168
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Alright, finished editing the Gargoyle. I've done pretty much just what Gorgondantess told me to, but I have two notes to add:

    Horrendous Visage allows lower fear effects because sometimes it really doesn't help when your foe runs away rather than fighting at reduced efficiency for a round or two more.

    Stone Cold Metabolism shall stay as it is, because it offers some clarification as to ongoing effects which affect only creatures or only objects, and because it gives exactly what you're immune to in said form (there are probably things that might be argued otherwise). Plus it took ages to write and already says you count as an object up front, the rest is just durations and clarifying not-impossible but rare circumstances.

  29. - Top - End - #1169
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    Daemon

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    So since we aren't interested in alternates, I'm not really very good at collaboration online, and it's causing inordinate amounts of drama, I took my Feral Creature back down. Sorry about all the fuss.

    To avoid further concerns, is there anyone working on or with semi-hemi dibs on the Energon (MotP, PlH) or Firre Eladrin (BoED)?
    Last edited by Benly; 2011-03-05 at 12:51 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #1170
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VI

    Firre Eladrin are CR10, so I wouldn't encourage them for a first go.

    Energon are CR4 and CR 5, depending on what type you go for, but they're incorporeal, which opens up a whole can of worms. They also lack bodies and don't speak, which is different from 'can't speak', and to top it all off, they have no land speed and rely on flight/floating. All in all, making them viable would be a challenge. Pandorym, Lantern Archon and Brain in a Jar, IIRC, have all struggled with one or more of the above, to varying degrees. Just so you know what you'd be getting into.

    I do not believe anyone has called any of the races you mentioned..
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2011-03-05 at 02:07 PM.

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