Community Based Monster Classes VI

[Mystic Muse]

Sorry, just a little too used to internet forums where "hilarious" use of Nazi imagery is pretty common.

I could see somebody using a "Grammar nazi" avatar, but any decent person I know of would only use that until either A. Somebody brought up that it offended them even thought it's a joke or B. They decided that they'd had enough of the joke.

[Psyborg]

Not a problem. But, y'know, it made my first impression of you... less than positive.

Then I shall have to work to overcome that in the future.

*objections to nazi avatar*

Well, the remark was tongue-in-cheek, but still thoughtless, and I apologize for it. (I seem to be doing that a lot just now... ) I assure you I had no intention whatsoever of actually using such an avatar.

[Benly]

Well, the remark was tongue-in-cheek, but still thoughtless, and I apologize for it. (I seem to be doing that a lot just now... ) I assure you I had no intention whatsoever of actually using such an avatar.

It's okay, I don't object to terms like "grammar Nazi" and so on. It's just actual Nazi imagery on people's avatars for comedic effect is something I've seen in various sites and it always kind of unsettles me.

[Mystic Muse]

It's okay, I don't object to terms like "grammar Nazi" and so on. It's just actual Nazi imagery on people's avatars for comedic effect is something I've seen in various sites and it always kind of unsettles me.

Yeah, I don't get what people find funny about things like that.

[The Winter King]

With this in mind I would like to request the Myconid (MM2).
Mushrooms away!

Ill do them, I love the Myconoids. Got a wooden mushroom named Milton from a renaissance faire.

Also what do I need to do to get the Phase Wasp and the Jovoc off of the unfinished Monster List.

Edit: What are these lisences I keep hearing about? Explain please.

[Psyborg]

Glad I didn't permanently offend anyone. Regardless, the joke in question has been excised from the post.

Moving on to more cheerful things: Hyudra, I believe the template in this post should now be satisfactory. Let me know if there are any further issues.

[Lizard Lord]

@Half-Dragon: So...a dragon can take half-dragon? Wouldn't that just be a full dragon?

[Crafty Cultist]

@Half-Dragon: So...a dragon can take half-dragon? Wouldn't that just be a full dragon?

A Half-dragon dragon is the child of two different types of dragon. It happens

[Lix Lorn]

Prerequisites:
Knowledge: Arcana 4 ranks.
Language: Draconic.
Able to cast at least 1st level spells from any spontaneous spellcasting class.
Any creature type but undead or construct. Dragons are extremely prolific creatures, but even they can't mate with the inanimate.

So... you can't take levels in half dragon until level two? When you suddenly grow scales and wings?
Also, I kinda thought we were trying to make dragons less uber-gishy?
...also, no love for vampirific dragons? :P

As well, I'd ask for a little more leeway in breath weapons. For example, 'If the parent dragon has a breath weapon not entirely composed of one of these energy types, it deals the same type as the parent dragon, at 1d6/HD'

And, aren't Breath Weapons always worked out with Con modifiers?

To be completely honest, I thought the first Half Dragon was pretty fair...
...and isn't Half Dragon +3 LA?

...and I'm being sooo critical todaaaay. DX Your mileage may vary?

[Mystic Muse]

Your mileage may vary?

It may, but I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Except the part about you being critical. Don't know if I can agree to that.

Also, the picture doesn't look very draconic, it looks....Hairy.

[Bloody Initiate]

I've noticed you guys have made several constructs but never give them class skills. This only makes sense if they're the "Awakened" variety.

In 3.5 constructs with intelligence scores have skill points, and any creature with skill points has class skills (Although often only one or two). Class skills are not decided by creature type, they're decided by the specific creatures. Even most animals have class skills. As long as it has an intelligence score, it has skill points, and as long as it has skill points, it has class skills.

Every monster with an intelligence score has class skills, you figure them out by looking at their entry and breaking down the math.

So we'll look at the Zelekhut entry for instance:

It has 8 hit dice with 2 + int per level with 4x at first level. It has no intelligence bonus (10 intelligence), so just 22 skill points. Enough to get two skills to max or to sprinkle the skill points around. It also gets a +4 racial bonus on Search and Sense Motive. Its maximum ranks in cross-class skills is 5.

It has Str 21, Dex 11, Con -, Int 10, Wis 17, and Charisma 15.

Its skills are: Diplomacy +4, Listen +9, Search +9, Sense Motive +12, Spot +9, Search 3 (+5 following tracks)

Diplomacy +4 (+2 Charisma, +2 Synergy)
Listen +9 (+3 Wisdom, +6 ranks)
Search +9 (+0 Intelligence, +4 racial, +5 ranks)
Sense Motive (+3 Wisdom, +4 racial, +5 ranks)
Spot +9 (+3 Wisdom, +6 ranks)
Survival +3 (+3 Wisdom)

So by breaking down the math we see that the Zelekhut spent no skill ranks in cross-class skills because it could not have afforded to put 6 ranks into two skills. Also we see that at least the two skills it put 6 ranks in must be class skills because the maximum ranks it can afford in cross-class skills is 5. So the Zelekhut must have Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot as class skills because although it only has 5 ranks in Sense Motive and Search it couldn't have afforded 5s if those were cross-class because it spent 12 of its 22 on Listen and Spot. I would also say it probably has Survival as a class skill since it gets a racial bonus, but it just didn't bother putting any ranks in it.

The Nimblewright's 3.5 update entry shows it has ranks in Jump and Tumble. So at the very least it has those two skills as class skills. .

The Force Golem's entry shows it has Balance, Jump, and Tumble for sure and probably has Listen and Spot.

I just thought I'd suggest a way I saw for you guys to improve your class construction guidelines. At the moment you're shafting a lot of constructs that earned no shafting.

[Frog Dragon]

A wild critique appears (for Gorgondantess' Half-Dragon)!

Spoiler

Show

Prerequisites:
Knowledge: Arcana 4 ranks.
Language: Draconic.
Able to cast at least 1st level spells from any spontaneous spellcasting class.
Any creature type but undead or construct. Dragons are extremely prolific creatures, but even they can't mate with the inanimate. I don't particularly like this. Two reasons. Dragonic creatures are already gishy enough, and this class doesn't let you take it until level 2. Which is weird, because half-dragon is, fluffwise, just as born into as half-elf or half-orc, and barring special circumstances, you don't become one. You are born as one. I'd just remove the prereqs and note that it should typically be taken at level one.

HD: d12
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature|Spellcasting
1|+ 1|+2|+0 | + 2|Half-Dragon Body, Breath Weapon Heritage, Wings, Bonus Spell, +1 Str, +1 Cha|--
2|+ 2|+3|+0 | + 3|Breath Channeling, Bonus Spell, +1 Str, +1 Cha|+1 level of spontaneous spellcasting class
[/table]

Skills: 2 + Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Spellcraft, and Spot.
Proficiencies: The Half-Dragon gains proficiency with its own natural weapons.

Half-Dragon Body:Unlike other monster classes, the Half Dragon doesn't lose his racial ability modifiers, but he does gain Dragon traits, which includes Darkvision out to 60' and immunity to Sleep & Paralysis effects. The Half-Dragon also gains a bite attack and 2 claws as secondary and primary natural weapons, respectively, with the bite starting at 1d6+1/2 Str and the claws at 1d4+Str damage for a medium creature. Those who already possess a claw and/or bite attack keep their normal natural weapons, and their claw and/or bite damage increases as if they had increased in size by one step.
Finally, the Half-Dragon gains a bonus to natural armor equal to one half its charisma modifier. This stacks with natural armor from other races. Three natural attacks at first level? Granted, they aren't all that good natural attacks, but it is still a lot better than the RotD kobold, which may not be a good thing.

Breath Weapon Heritage: At 1st level, the Half-Dragon chooses its draconic heritage. Rather than choosing a specific dragon type (though it may certainly do so if it chooses), the Half-Dragon has leeway in this matter.
It gains a breath weapon usable once every 1d4+1 rounds that deals 1d8/2 HD damage of either acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic damage. Those who choose sonic instead deal 1d6/2 HD damage. Regardless, they gain a resistance to the energy type they choose equal to their HD. The Half-Dragon can choose either a line or cone breath weapon: the cone has a range of 15' plus 5'/2 HD, and the line has a range of 30' plus 5'/HD.
Like all breath weapons, those within the area of the half dragon's breath weapon may make a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Cha mod)
Finally, the Half-Dragon may add one skill of its choice to its list of class skills in this and every class to represent its draconic heritage: for example, a half bronze dragon might choose bluff, while a half shadow dragon might choose hide. I see nothing wrong here, except that the ranges are getting pretty huge at the later levels. (65ft cone! Woo!) Then again, the time the areas go over the nonstandard, it's mid levels at the very least, so it can probably slide.

Wings:While the Half-Dragon gains wings, they are not very adept at lifting its clumsy hybrid body. Initially it merely gains a bonus to jump checks equal to its HD and halves all falling damage. By 5 HD, the Half-Dragon is able to fully utilize its wings, gaining a fly speed equal to its land speed with Poor maneuverability. This increases to twice its land speed by 8 HD and Average maneuverability by 12 HD. Looks good to me.

Bonus Spells: The Half-Dragon, at first level, gains a bonus spell per day that it may assign to any spell level. Every time it levels up, it may change which spell level the bonus spell is assigned to.
At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon gains an additional bonus spell per day, though it may not assign both its bonus spell per day to the same spell level unless it can only cast one level of spells. Random bonus spells? Taken off the Dragon Disciple? I'm not sure how necessary these are, especially given my (and other people's) responses to the gishiness of this template at the moment.

Ability Score Increases: The Half-Dragon gains +1 Str & Cha at every level, for a total of +2 to Strength & Charisma at level 2. Everything looks cool here.

Spellcasting: At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon advances +1 spellcasting level of the spontaneous spellcasting class used to qualify for this template, just like a PrC would. Again, I'm not sure about the spellcasting abilities. In this case, this would make it more accessible to mages though, which could be a good thing. Maybe give an option between this and some other extra?

Breath Channeling: At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon becomes able to channel its magic through its breath weapon in two ways. In both applications, this ability is activated as a full round action, consumes 2 uses per day of the spell of choice, counts as casting a spell for the purposes of attacks of opportunity, spell interruption, etc., and doubles the cooldown time of the breath weapon.
Breath Weapon Admixture: With this ability, the Half-Dragon casts a spell and charges it with the energies of its breath weapon. Those who are affected by the spell must also make a Reflex save equal to the Reflex save of the Half-Dragon's breath weapon or take damage as if struck by the breath weapon (though they do not get a second save against this effect.)
Spell Breath: This ability allows the Half-Dragon to "breath out" a spell in place of its breath weapon. Those spells that require an attack roll instead allow a Reflex save equal to that of the breath weapon to negate the effect: otherwise, all within the breath weapon's area are affected as if the spell was cast on them. While the abilities are pretty fitting (also, yoinked for my Black Dragon) and flavorful, they once again, only cater to the casters, which I don't particularly like. Again, maybe give an alternate to this?

My general beef with this class is the caster-focus, starting from the prerequisites, and ending with all the cool abilities needing casting to do anything. In addition, it should be accessible at first level, and indeed, the default assumption should be that you take this at first level, because you don't suddenly become a half-dragon, you are born as one.

There we go. Was kind of unsure about critiquing this, since the maker is Gorgondantess, and I'm not that experienced a brewer in comparison. However, even a broken clock is right twice a day, and I thought my insights might make some sense, so I posted this anyway.

[Hyudra]

Oh man, my internet service provider suddenly stopped providing me with internet access last night. What was a leisurely evening alternating between work & monster class stuff became a scramble to try and get my internet back up, then to find a friend who'd let me use their internet (which failed, my 'friends' either weren't replying, were out or were unable), and ultimately had me going across half the city to use a computer in a library, piles of work documents in hand, to get stuff done for this morning.

...and now it's inexplicably back up.

[Comprehensive review of the template/FAQ post]

You're a hero. I didn't expect you to go over the FAQ as well. Just the cut & paste template.

Also, you know how long it's been since I read anything that actually bothered double-spacing between sentences? Roughly forever.

Haha. Funny thing is, the board automatically contracts it to one space anyways. It's just so ingrained in me I can't help but do it.

Hueg Half Dragon Picture with ugly text

I did tell you to crop that if you used it. Here:

http://i56.tinypic.com/25kmmqd.jpg

A cropped version of your half dragon pic.

Also what do I need to do to get the Phase Wasp and the Jovoc off of the unfinished Monster List.

Edit: What are these lisences I keep hearing about? Explain please.

Phase Wasp & Jovoc will be covered in another batch critique, either today or tomorrow, depending on how many people have updated their monsters since the last batch critique. Make sure you're replied to the last critique & detailed such in a changelog, as I skip any monster that hasn't visibly edited between the past critique and the present.

Licenses are explained in the first post of the thread.

I've noticed you guys have made several constructs but never give them class skills. This only makes sense if they're the "Awakened" variety.

That's explained in the FAQ. I'll quote:

What's going on with these undead and Construct monster classes? Why don't they have skills?

Undead and Constructs get a whole bunch of bonuses just for being undead/construct type. You're immune to poison, diseases, stunning, mind affecting stuff, morale effects, you get a bunch of HD, you can't be crit, you take no ability damage... the list goes on and on and on. It's a huge list of benefits!

To prevent them from being too powerful as one-level dips (creating situations where everyone takes single a level in, say, skeleton, to ensure they can be undead and they get all those choice benefits), there's a rule that if you're undead or construct, you don't get class skills. So you're forced to put ranks in cross-class skills. We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful, as well.

edit:

yoinked for my Black Dragon

This is a good excuse to raise a subject that came up in conversation with Gorgondantess some time ago. What are your guys' opinions on having material 'borrowed' from one monster class and used for another?

I ask because I got my start in this project doing the giants, and I went to a lot of effort to try and come up with unique abilities for each flavor of giant. Imagine my surprise, then, when one or two of these unique, giant-specific abilities showed up on the Titan. I felt this detracted from the Giant in question, but as the Titan was raised, finished and accepted for the list during a period when I wasn't posting, I didn't really feel I could make an issue of it. It still left a sour taste in my mouth at the time. It happened again with the Remorhaz (several abilities borrowed from my Purple Worm), but Bladesmith was kind enough to change at my request.

So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?

[Frog Dragon]

This is a good excuse to raise a subject that came up in conversation with Gorgondantess some time ago. What are your guys' opinions on having material 'borrowed' from one monster class and used for another?

I ask because I got my start in this project doing the giants, and I went to a lot of effort to try and come up with unique abilities for each flavor of giant. Imagine my surprise, then, when one or two of these unique, giant-specific abilities showed up on the Titan. I felt this detracted from the Giant in question, but as the Titan was raised, finished and accepted for the list during a period when I wasn't posting, I didn't really feel I could make an issue of it. It still left a sour taste in my mouth at the time. It happened again with the Remorhaz (several abilities borrowed from my Purple Worm), but Bladesmith was kind enough to change at my request.

So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?

I kinda phrased that badly. I only meant that the concept of breath weapon spells was pretty much exactly what I was looking for with the Dragon Mage Path. I'm not going to actually yoink the ability unless Gorgon gives me the go-ahead, and I might not do it even then.

Edit: And yeah, unique abilities feel a lot like "my" work, and I wouldn't be all that sure on.. for example, someone copying the Cursed Wound line of abilities from my Nycaloth. I'd at least want them to note in comments where they got them from.

[Lizard Lord]

So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?

If you have permission from the original homebrewer, I see nothing wrong with it.

[Frog Dragon]

If you have permission from the original homebrewer, I see nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, that's the key part.

[Bloody Initiate]

Undead and Constructs get a whole bunch of bonuses just for being undead/construct type. You're immune to poison, diseases, stunning, mind affecting stuff, morale effects, you get a bunch of HD, you can't be crit, you take no ability damage... the list goes on and on and on. It's a huge list of benefits!

I bolded the part that makes no sense.

You do NOT get a bunch of HD, there is no basis for that statement at all. You get the same amount as anyone else. The Force Golem has 4, the Nimblewright has 7. That's not a bunch, that's their CR.

Also half the immunities can be duplicated with low level stuff.

To prevent them from being too powerful as one-level dips (creating situations where everyone takes single a level in, say, skeleton, to ensure they can be undead and they get all those choice benefits), there's a rule that if you're undead or construct, you don't get class skills. So you're forced to put ranks in cross-class skills. We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful, as well.

First off I'm pretty sure these classes are supposed to be cross-classable. So setting them up to avoid one-level dips doesn't make any sense.

It makes even less sense when you consider the player can get the benefits of the undead type from Necropolitan - and it's better that way, and they can grab a lot of nice construct stuff with warforged - which are also mostly better than basic constructs despite fewer immunities.

The last sentence is just silly. It says "We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful" but does not specify "after immunities." To a new builder this looks like a license to screw over two types for no reason at all.

Finally, the decision still makes zero sense because that's not how the game works. If you have an intelligence score, you have class skills. It's simple. Just like you get a feat every third level, you get class skills if you're intelligent. There's no good reason to deny the classes that, it just makes them significantly less functional.

Obviously you're entitled to do whatever you want, I just think that portion of the guidelines needs another look because it looks as outdated as 3.0. I know you guys have a council for deciding this kind of thing.

So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?

Open Source.

It's a little frustrating to watch people gank your ideas without asking or crediting you, but I hold to the philosophy that a good idea remains good whether or not the original author gets credit.

Also I personally would want to reuse good ideas I had, so I wouldn't want people telling me to think of something original every time when I was actually quite thrilled with the work I'd already done and enjoy borrowing from my own good foundations.

Believe it or not it's possible for two people to have the exact same idea without any interaction or influence between them. I made a rule for a different game awhile back and later found it duplicated exactly, down to the name and the mechanics. I don't believe the guy stole the idea, I think he just happened to build the same ability and name it the same as I did by pure coincidence. I still did it first, but that doesn't make him a thief, just late to the party.

Furthermore, consistency is good. How many base classes have Uncanny Dodge? Is everyone stealing from the Barbarian because that class was the first one printed? No, a good idea that gives a solid, balanced mechanical advantage should be copied a dozen times over. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Finally, you're already borrowing material wholesale. To try and put your name on it and claim it as yours is silly, that's like making a Fighter fix and claiming no one else can fix the fighter.

[Psyborg]

Perhaps adding this to the general FAQ:

Borrowing Abilities from Other Monster Classes: There are a lot of excellent abilities that have already been created for monsters in this project, and you may feel that one of them would complement your current project. However, a lot of work has gone into the creation of unique and flavorful abilities for individual monsters, and their creators may not want them copied throughout the project. If you want to use a unique ability originally created for another monster class, please ask the creator of that class first. In the event of inactive posters and non-response to such requests, go ahead and use the ability, with a note in the comments that they didn't respond, and be aware that it may have to be removed if they request such at any point during the critique process. Regardless of their response or lack thereof, content borrowed from other monster classes should always be credited to the original monster and its creator in the Comments section."

And add the following to the codebox under the Comments spoiler:

//////////////If your monster has an ability originally created for a previous Monster Class, remember to credit the class and its author here. 

I don't think we ought to allow such abilities' original creators to ask that they be removed from things on the Finished Monsters list; people may already be playing them, and removal of a major ability could very well require a complete re-write of the monster, with the ensuing hassle and delay for all involved. However, a good-faith effort to contact the original creator of the content for permission, and credit given to the creator whether they respond or not, is, I believe, sufficient to satisfy both good manners and our ethical duty to the content's creator.

[Bloody Initiate]

Psyborg's solution is easily the most elegant.

I still gawk in amazement at people who post on a public forum getting upset about their idea showing up elsewhere, but I'm one end of the spectrum and a new member, so my views are irrelevant.

The other silly thing: I thought the dream of every homebrewer was that their material would be seen as worthy enough to be used. I know my work is unlikely to be used, but I love the idea of it seeing use anyway. It's flattering, and it validates my effort as something more than my personal pursuits (If it was just for me, I wouldn't put it on a public forum)

[Hyudra]

I bolded the part that makes no sense.

You do NOT get a bunch of HD, there is no basis for that statement at all. You get the same amount as anyone else. The Force Golem has 4, the Nimblewright has 7. That's not a bunch, that's their CR.

Also half the immunities can be duplicated with low level stuff.

Rather, they have large HD (d12) regardless of role. Poor wording on my part.

Edit: In any event, in regards to what Bloody Initiate is arguing - one of the things we go for in this thread is to have monster classes that stand out from the rest. If someone's copying stuff to fill in gaps in their own monsters, it points to laziness on their part and it makes for a degree of sameness across the board. In the doing, they're also detracting from the uniqueness of the monster they're borrowing from. This is what's irritating about it.

[Frog Dragon]

Open Source.

It's a little frustrating to watch people gank your ideas without asking or crediting you, but I hold to the philosophy that a good idea remains good whether or not the original author gets credit.

Also I personally would want to reuse good ideas I had, so I wouldn't want people telling me to think of something original every time when I was actually quite thrilled with the work I'd already done and enjoy borrowing from my own good foundations.

Believe it or not it's possible for two people to have the exact same idea without any interaction or influence between them. I made a rule for a different game awhile back and later found it duplicated exactly, down to the name and the mechanics. I don't believe the guy stole the idea, I think he just happened to build the same ability and name it the same as I did by pure coincidence. I still did it first, but that doesn't make him a thief, just late to the party.

Furthermore, consistency is good. How many base classes have Uncanny Dodge? Is everyone stealing from the Barbarian because that class was the first one printed? No, a good idea that gives a solid, balanced mechanical advantage should be copied a dozen times over. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Finally, you're already borrowing material wholesale. To try and put your name on it and claim it as yours is silly, that's like making a Fighter fix and claiming no one else can fix the fighter.

The wholesale copying we do has explicitly been granted permission to. WotC made that deal on their own. OGL allows modification and copying.

We did not though, and while we, having based our homebrews on the 3.5 D&D system, are doing Open Source by default, it doesn't mean we can't have reservations on people wholesale copying our stuff without credit. In this case, we have not explicitly given permission to do this, and while there is nothing illegal about said copying, common courtesy dictates you should probably get that permission before copying it.

[Psyborg]

You do NOT get a bunch of HD, there is no basis for that statement at all. You get the same amount as anyone else. The Force Golem has 4, the Nimblewright has 7. That's not a bunch, that's their CR.

Hmm. This is exactly correct; it's completely nonsensical. The HD phrase should be stricken from the record. Sorry, I should have caught that.

Also half the immunities can be duplicated with low level stuff.

Not quite. I'm not aware of a way to get permanent immunity to mind-affecting without one of a few very expensive magic items, and that's probably the single most important immunity in the game.

First off I'm pretty sure these classes are supposed to be cross-classable. So setting them up to avoid one-level dips doesn't make any sense.

They're not cross-classable between monster classes, normally, but you don't have to finish the monster class to start taking levels in normal base classes and/or prestige classes. Dipping one level of, say, Monstrous Spider and then going straight into, say, Swordsage is completely possible, so we're trying to avoid having Monstrous Spider 1 / Swordsage 19 be dramatically better than Swordsage 20 or Monstrous Spider 11 / Swordsage 9.

It makes even less sense when you consider the player can get the benefits of the undead type from Necropolitan - and it's better that way, and they can grab a lot of nice construct stuff with warforged - which are also mostly better than basic constructs despite fewer immunities.

Necropolitan loses a level and has to gain it back, and doesn't gain the sort of useful and flavorful abilities that monster classes are filled with, just basic Undead type traits. And Warforged loses 75% crit/SA immunity and (the biggest immunity in the game, remember) immunity to mind-affecting compared to an actual Construct. I don't think Warforged are better than Constructs in any way other than being LA 0.

The last sentence is just silly. It says "We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful" but does not specify "after immunities." To a new builder this looks like a license to screw over two types for no reason at all.

Another good point. Adding "after Type traits", "in terms of class features and abilities", or some such language would make the intended meaning clearer. Thanks again for the catch.

Finally, the decision still makes zero sense because that's not how the game works. If you have an intelligence score, you have class skills. It's simple. Just like you get a feat every third level, you get class skills if you're intelligent. There's no good reason to deny the classes that, it just makes them significantly less functional.

As a major baseline standard for dozens of existing classes, a decision on actually changing this policy is probably the council's purview, not mine, but here's my take on it:
--Undead and Construct do have a lot of useful, powerful immunities that can't be duplicated without enormous expense (or Divine Metamagic:Persist, which makes everything easy anyway), and which can make balancing their early levels very difficult.
--They can either be balanced with weaker class features, one or more fundamental disadvantages to offset their immunities, or a combination of the two.
--Currently, they get two fundamental disadvantages (much lower HP, poor Fort saves, and poor Con- and Con-based checks due to no Con score; and no class skills), and generally slightly weaker class features. None of these are individually overwhelming. Removing the no-class-skills limitations would require class features, at the first few levels at least, to be weakened still further, inhibiting the ability of 'brewers to come up with the abilities that make or break a flavorful and unique undead monster class.
--On the other hand, if you leave things how they are but want to make a skill-based undead or construct, then just make one of its level 1 class features, "Cunning: Unlike most (undead|constructs), you have class skills." It'll get considered for balance like any other class feature would be; it'll probably replace something else at level 1; but that's okay because it'll be one of the defining traits of the monster.

In conclusion: Undead and Constructs are always going to be at least somewhat problematic, but I think the current system works.

Open Source.

It's a little frustrating to watch people gank your ideas without asking or crediting you, but I hold to the philosophy that a good idea remains good whether or not the original author gets credit.

Also I personally would want to reuse good ideas I had, so I wouldn't want people telling me to think of something original every time when I was actually quite thrilled with the work I'd already done and enjoy borrowing from my own good foundations.

Believe it or not it's possible for two people to have the exact same idea without any interaction or influence between them. I made a rule for a different game awhile back and later found it duplicated exactly, down to the name and the mechanics. I don't believe the guy stole the idea, I think he just happened to build the same ability and name it the same as I did by pure coincidence. I still did it first, but that doesn't make him a thief, just late to the party.

Furthermore, consistency is good. How many base classes have Uncanny Dodge? Is everyone stealing from the Barbarian because that class was the first one printed? No, a good idea that gives a solid, balanced mechanical advantage should be copied a dozen times over. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Finally, you're already borrowing material wholesale. To try and put your name on it and claim it as yours is silly, that's like making a Fighter fix and claiming no one else can fix the fighter.

All granted; I just think that it'd be good manners to ask first, and most people are only going to say "No, you can't use this" if it's something that's really central to the identity of the existing monster. In which case...well, I think we're better off as a project having to come up with something new. No one's going to deny permission to borrow minor abilities, or even most of the big ones that aren't defining traits of an existing monster. It seems more considerate (something I've been becoming rapidly more aware of over the last few days ), and it's my opinion that it'll be better for the project in the long run, too.

But that's my take on it. Let the talking heads decide We're going to keep writing stuff regardless, right? *grin*

As a final note, the casting-progression tables I mentioned the other day are definitely going to have to wait for next week...my weekend got crazy all of a sudden.

Edit: Ugh, swordsaged. More than once, too. Oh well.

[Bloody Initiate]

I absolutely support good manners, and despite my stated philosophies would ask permission before yoinking any ideas. I just get annoyed when people act entitled and petulant over "their" work which is in fact built upon someone else's work. I also recognize the absence of consequences on the internet, so you're better off starting with a forgiving attitude because an unforgiving attitude isn't going to affect anyone but you.

[Lix Lorn]

I don't care about people borrowing anything I come up with, as long as they tell me...

[Benly]

Rather, they have large HD (d12) regardless of role. Poor wording on my part.

But they also have no constitution bonus and no -10 HD buffer. A first-level commoner with 8 Con can take more damage before permadeath than a first-level construct can. The d12 isn't a strength, it's a partial compensation for their biggest weakness.

[Bloody Initiate]

...it's also a d10 for constructs, not a d12...

It was bothering me...

It's a d12 for undead for sure, but I'll happily concede that there is a lot more stuff that targets undead than constructs.

[Hyudra]

But they also have no constitution bonus and no -10 HD buffer. A first-level commoner with 8 Con can take more damage before permadeath than a first-level construct can. The d12 isn't a strength, it's a partial compensation for their biggest weakness.

Right, but even so, if you're a mid level lich, it still stands to be an overall benefit over your standard caster, as far as having a little more HP to fritter away. No, you don't get the standard 'dying' buffer, but your immunities help ensure that you're not going to get surprised by a status effect, crippling poison or nasty crit that drops you faster than you'd expect. So the lack of an HP buffer is already sufficiently compensated for. Further, despite having a steady HP gain per level on par with a wizard with 18 con or a rogue with 16 con (and higher HP at first level: 12 vs. 8 for the wizard example and 9 for the rogue), without needing to invest points/good rolls in constitution, you're free to put points in Dex (+AC, get hit less, act sooner, higher reflex) or Wis (+will saves) with virtually no detriment.

It works out to an overall advantage, barring the earliest levels where that hp buffer is so essential.

[Benly]

It works out to an overall advantage, barring the earliest levels where that hp buffer is so essential.

I still disagree - at higher levels, getting hold of a Con bonus isn't so hard if you want one, and it's an option undead and constructs don't have.

Additionally, many undead and most constructs are melee-type classes, and for them it's a straight disadvantage - almost any melee type is going to have more hit points per level than a construct expected to take the same role, so penalizing them for that "benefit" is a bit unfair. For casters, it is a HP advantage - but casters don't rely so much on having a high HP because they can stay off the front lines, so it's an advantage to something that doesn't advantage them much. The main place where this is a real advantage is for "light melee" classes. If you have a construct or undead that directly competes with the rogue or ninja or factotum or whatnot, trying to counterbalance their higher HP with loss of skill points makes sense. For anyone else, it pretty much amounts to screwing them out of ever seeing prestige classes.

[Bloody Initiate]

For the record, mages aren't as squishy as tropes would suggest.

Wizards can freely dump charisma and strength already, which means they can crank con and have more hitpoints.

Sorcerers can dump strength as well, and they don't have to worry about intelligence much either (I hate dumping intelligence on any character, but some characters can afford it a lot better than others).

Clerics aren't squishy anyway.

Fighter types?

Need strength.

Need Dex (Occasionally they can leave it low)

NEED Con

They actually need Int because they rarely get a workable amount of skill points, and they're more dependent on such things.

They also usually want at least a +1 in wisdom because their will saves suck.


My point is just that the people who gain the most are always casters, and the people who lose the most are always everyone else, and removing the con score is just another example of this.

[TheGeckoKing]

Still, couldn't we just have a rule where Constructs only have about 3-4 skills to pick from that make sense, tops?

I mean, yes Undead/Constructs are pretty cool when it comes down to immunities, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense to me, short of making something silly up on the spot.
Ghouls, yeah. I get that. Mummies, eh, that's pushing it.
However, why would a Lich/Vampire suddenly become dumber?

I mean, normal Constucts gain the bottom 2+Int mod anyway, but intelligent undead normally gain 4+Int mod skill points, and a mid level Wizard could of just gotten the Necropolitan template anyway for a pittance of gold, and gained back the lost level, by the mid levels. It just seems a bit arbitrary.