Forcing Enemies to Attack you (3.5)

[LOTRfan]

After reading through the Dwarven Defender thread, Eldan mentioned

The problem with the Dwarven Defender is that it is basically a class that cripples itself. It's pretty much only class feature is turning immobile, resulting in enemies just walking, flying or teleporting past you and ignoring you until the rest of the party is finished.

That is, of course, a problem.

He brings up a fair point. This has led to me thinking of ways to correct this glaring issue. The most obvious way, at least in my eyes, to fix this would be to find a way to force a target to attack the dwarven defender. How, exactly, is this possible with official D&D material? I am fully aware ToB has an updated version of this prestige class, but I'd prefer to use non-ToB material (almost anything else is fair game, however).

[quiet1mi]

Debuffing the enemy with hexblade (the fixed version) / Paladin of Tyranny... then goad from complete warrior

[Thurbane]

Easiest way is probably levels in Knight, and pump up the DC of Knight's Challenge as much as possible.

The Goad feat (mentioned above) is another option, but not as as good as Knight's Challenge.

[LOTRfan]

That is perfect. Usable against most creatures, and has a DC that steadily increases as you level. It might be a little weird making a Dwarf with high charisma, but this is pretty cool. Thanks.

Where can I find the Hexblade fix?

EDIT: The Knight's challenge, of course. That functions with ranged attacks too, right?

[Starbuck_II]

After reading through the Dwarven Defender thread, Eldan mentioned



He brings up a fair point. This has led to me thinking of ways to correct this glaring issue. The most obvious way, at least in my eyes, to fix this would be to find a way to force a target to attack the dwarven defender. How, exactly, is this possible with official D&D material? I am fully aware ToB has an updated version of this prestige class, but I'd prefer to use non-ToB material (almost anything else is fair game, however).

There are spells:
Mindless Rage (2nd Bard, Wiz/Sorc): must attack you physically if fail will save. It Also activates Rage (using up a useage) on target.
Maybe a magic item that when activated casts it?

It stops Ranged attacks, spells, and magic items unless used on you in melee.

[LOTRfan]

There are spells:
Mindless Rage (2nd Bard, Wiz/Sorc): must attack you physically if fail will save. It Also activates Rage (using up a useage) on target.
Maybe a magic item that when activated casts it?

It stops Ranged attacks, spells, and magic items unless used on you in melee.

Where can mindless rage be found?

Also, is there a limit to how many times a character can use the goad feat?

[DeltaEmil]

Have your entire party be invisible except for you, so that your enemies will focus in the first round solely on you. Then let the clerics and wizards rain down colorless fire from the sky and apocalyptic devastation centered on you.

[Starbuck_II]

Where can mindless rage be found?

Complete adventurer or Spell Compendruim.

[Cerlis]

Roleplay.

/winthread



Once in an official dnd game (that one you do at events, its all...official. forget what its called)

I couldnt do anything other than rush into the trees by myself and attack em (i was a fighter, was trying to take) cus we where surrounded.

So i decided to try to goad the kobalds into shooting at me, by saying something like "C'mon you lizard loving cretins! I'll kill you all and piss on your graves like i did to your God's alter!" and promptly kicked our kobald prisoner in the gut.

[The Glyphstone]

Make your DM pity your class's inability to do its job properly

/winthread

Sadly, I had to fix that for you.

[TehLivingDeath]

Roleplay.

/winthread



Once in an official dnd game (that one you do at events, its all...official. forget what its called)

I couldnt do anything other than rush into the trees by myself and attack em (i was a fighter, was trying to take) cus we where surrounded.

So i decided to try to goad the kobalds into shooting at me, by saying something like "C'mon you lizard loving cretins! I'll kill you all and piss on your graves like i did to your God's alter!" and promptly kicked our kobald prisoner in the gut.

Won't work against any enemy that is either irrational or even remotely intelligent.

Knight has been mentioned. More than forcing enemies to attack, it's capability of restricting movement is also key. Crusaded would be even better. If the enemy can't just walk past you, trying to kill you would be the next logical step, unless he has some sort of ranged attack.

[snoopy13a]

In a dungeon crawl, the dwarven defender simply needs to set themself up at bottlenecks such as hallways (hallways are rarely wider than 5') or at doorways. Plus, dungeons normally have low ceilings, so flying over won't be an option. Of course, teleporting would be but it could lead to the teleporting NPC being separated from their comrades.

Additionally, reach weapons will provide the dwarven defender to at least hamper anyone trying to get by in a room or in the open field. A medium character with a spiked chain threatens a 25' by 25' area (that's a 625 square foot room, which isn't exactly small). If the dwarven defender has an enlarge person spell than the threatened area increases. A successful trip attack will prevent enemies from getting past the dwarf and encourage the enemies to concentrate ranged attacks on the dwarf.

Essentially, just try to use geography to your advantage.

[quiet1mi]

Your search fu is weak, alas the hexblade fix

"The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life.
As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky
or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually
work in play.

Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed.

If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:

* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage."

[Gnaeus]

In a dungeon crawl, the dwarven defender simply needs to set themself up at bottlenecks such as hallways (hallways are rarely wider than 5') or at doorways. Plus, dungeons normally have low ceilings, so flying over won't be an option. Of course, teleporting would be but it could lead to the teleporting NPC being separated from their comrades.

This would be helpful if you were a dwarf defender at, say, level 1-5. High level monsters tend to be more intelligent than humans, therefore unlikely to live in places where their mobility options are useless. If you do find a bottleneck, they are unlikely to engage you in it for the same reason, instead withdrawing to fight on terrain that is to their advantage, or circling behind the party, or opening up a new tunnel, or summoning allies behind the DD. In high level play, withdrawing into a bottleneck and waiting for the enemies to come to you is a good way to die as they unload their high level spells or SLAs.

Additionally, reach weapons will provide the dwarven defender to at least hamper anyone trying to get by in a room or in the open field. A medium character with a spiked chain threatens a 25' by 25' area (that's a 625 square foot room, which isn't exactly small). If the dwarven defender has an enlarge person spell than the threatened area increases. A successful trip attack will prevent enemies from getting past the dwarf and encourage the enemies to concentrate ranged attacks on the dwarf.

Again, by the time you are a DD, this tactic is spent. Most high CR creatures are either functionally untrippable or likely to have better methods to bypass a tripper than running past him.

I once did a comparison between Monster Manual 1 monsters of CRs likely to fight a DD and their actual vulnerability to his schtick. The result is that less than 10% of MM1 critters cannot just bypass the little mobile wall, and of those 10%, most, like Big T, will just move up and eat him in a round or 2.

[Cerlis]

Won't work against any enemy that is either irrational or even remotely intelligent.

Knight has been mentioned. More than forcing enemies to attack, it's capability of restricting movement is also key. Crusaded would be even better. If the enemy can't just walk past you, trying to kill you would be the next logical step, unless he has some sort of ranged attack.

Well for anything stupid, just hit it in the head, thats enough to get it pissed at you.

Sadly, I had to hijack your post cus i think Roleplaying solutions dont fit in with a roleplaying game.

sorry, had to fix that for you.

[Private-Prinny]

Crusaders can't force an enemy to attack them, but they can make it look like a much safer option. Stuff like Iron Guard's Glare and Defensive Rebuke make it a pain to attack an ally, but they don't take those penalties if you're their target.

Sadly, I had to hijack your post cus i think Roleplaying solutions dont fit in with a roleplaying game.

sorry, had to fix that for you.

That's just unnecessary. The OP asked for a mechanical solution, you suggested something that has nothing to do with the mechanics, and Glyphstone pointed out that the Fighter has no way to draw aggro.

[Darrin]

That is perfect. Usable against most creatures, and has a DC that steadily increases as you level. It might be a little weird making a Dwarf with high charisma, but this is pretty cool. Thanks.

Gold Dwarf (DMG), Desert Dwarf (UA/SRD), and Dream Dwarf (Races of Stone) have a Dex penalty instead of Cha. You can get +2 Cha/-2 Wis by adding the Magic-Blooded template (Dragon #306, LA +0).

Of course, that's not even getting into abusing Stone-Blessed with Magic-Blooded Star Elves or Magic-Blooded Phrenic Primordial Half-Giants.

Where can I find the Hexblade fix?

Updated Hexblade Handbook has the details.

EDIT: The Knight's challenge, of course. That functions with ranged attacks too, right?

Pick up a Veil of Allure (Sandstorm, MIC) ASAP. It increases your Cha-based DCs by +2, so it's worth 4 levels of Knight.

There are a couple loopholes you might want to bring up with your DM:

You can issue Knights Challenges while invisible (target just needs to be able to hear you and understand some kind of language). You can even attack while invisible without breaking the Knight's Code (targets do not get their Dex bonus against invisible attackers, but by RAW are not explicitly considered flat-footed). However, if you try this, 99% of DMs will most likely immediately rule that this violates the Knight's Code via RAI.

You can be moved around by *someone else* while in a Defensive Stance. Talisman of the Disk is great for this (i.e., the "Pouncing Sidecar"), particulary if you can give it to a cohort/familiar. Another PC with a wand of benevolent transposition is also fairly cheap. If money is no object, I've seen some suggestions that a Carpet of Flying could be put to good use. Again, you may run into RAI issues with your DM if you get a bit too mobile.

[Thurbane]

There are spells:
Mindless Rage (2nd Bard, Wiz/Sorc): must attack you physically if fail will save. It Also activates Rage (using up a useage) on target.
Maybe a magic item that when activated casts it?

It stops Ranged attacks, spells, and magic items unless used on you in melee.

For spells, Confusion is another option. Any creature under a Confusion spell is automatically compelled to do nothing else than attack the last creature to attack it...

[Silva Stormrage]

One way which requires quite a bit of DM intepretation is to penalize your diplomacy check. With a race that gives a penalty to charisma and several flaws and traits that reduce diplomacy you should be able to get around -20. Now the rules for diplomacy state that the person becomes more hateful of you when you roll below a 0.
So do diplomacy for 5 rounds and someone who was previously helpfull now tries to rip your throat out . Of course thats unreasonable in combat but it clearly shows that a poor diplomacy check makes the target hate you more. A dm I had ruled that this made everyone I was talking to just focus fire on me until I think like 2 rounds or something like that. It's for a full round action so its not unbalanced in the slightest.

Side note in the same campaign it was funny to cause a riot pretty much whenever I wanted to.

[Fiery Diamond]

That's just unnecessary. The OP asked for a mechanical solution, you suggested something that has nothing to do with the mechanics, and Glyphstone pointed out that the Fighter has no way to draw aggro.

In my opinion, it is just as "unnecessary" to "quote" someone else's post and change the contents to something completely different in the first place. This whole "fixed it for you" trend on this forum is both highly annoying and rude, so unless the person "quoted" finds it amusing rather than irritating, responding in kind is no more wrong than the initial transgression.

On topic: People have mentioned most things I can think of. Frankly, unless things like getting class levels in a specific other class or getting magic items that cast specific spells are easily available, you may be better off trying to follow the "role-play it" suggestion. Though, as Glyphstone pointed out, this is highly dependent on your DM being willing to role-play the enemy responses favorably to you.

[Psyren]

In my opinion, it is just as "unnecessary" to "quote" someone else's post and change the contents to something completely different in the first place. This whole "fixed it for you" trend on this forum is both highly annoying and rude, so unless the person "quoted" finds it amusing rather than irritating, responding in kind is no more wrong than the initial transgression.

He's still wrong. I quote the OP:

How, exactly, is this possible with official D&D material?

There are no official rules for what happens when you "kick a kobold prisoner in the gut." And that's assuming he has one handy to kick every time he needs to pull aggro, or can think up sufficiently scathing insults that will reliably cause baddies to ignore the dress-wearing guy throwing spells from the back line. (That would require a quickness of wit I'm more likely to attribute to Kender than Dwarven Defenders; assuming, that is, that we're roleplaying them.)

So we've got someone being either deliberately or blissfully unhelpful, and then promptly declaring he's "won the thread" with his unhelpful advice, which is itself rather disrespectful to the much more suitable suggestions that have come before him. If he's that confident in his assertion, he should not only expect, but invite people to challenge it.

[Stallion]

7 Knight/1 warblade/8 DD/4 deepstone sentinel anyone? Draw attackers in with Knight's Challenge and then keep them still with Stone Curse. Grab enough DD to get Mobile Defense and you can at least move a VERY little bit.



Edit: Oof. Derp on that one, missed the no ToB stuff.

[DeltaEmil]

No go, because LOTRfan doesn't want to or can't use warblade and other Tome of Battle-material, unfortunately.

[Boci]

sorry, had to fix that for you.

So how would you respond to one of those really rare monsters that thinks the squishy caster needs to be dealt with before the talking tincan? You know, say, something with a combined intelligence and wisdom score above 20?

In my opinion, it is just as "unnecessary" to "quote" someone else's post and change the contents to something completely different in the first place.

But it wasn't changed. Roleplaying insults and threats to get the monster's attention is asking the DM to throw you a bone.

For spells, Confusion is another option. Any creature under a Confusion spell is automatically compelled to do nothing else than attack the last creature to attack it...

Isn't that just one of many options it can take? (Flee, attack the casters, do nothing...)

[DeltaEmil]

Against intelligent and/or spellcasting opponents, dwarven defenders die.

Dwarven defenders are meant to hold the line against hopelessly outmatched 1/2 hd orcs and goblins trying to storm a dwarven stronghold and dying in droves who stupidly charge again and again, never using bows or longspears, derping around till their lifeless bodies hinder further assaults from other stupid monsters in the back.

The only problem is of course that nobody wants to roll out a boring encounter as such, even if this would look like an epic scenario... which it isn't, as a higher-level character slaughtering enemies that can only hit on a 20 anyway is anything but epic.

[Boci]

The only problem is of course that nobody wants to roll out a boring encounter as such, even if this would look like an epic scenario... which it isn't, as a higher-level character slaughtering enemies that can only hit on a 20 anyway is anything but epic.

DM could be using 3.5 minions, but thats hardly the norm.

Another problem DDs have that is rarely mentioned because lack of movement over shadows it, is that even if a monster does focus solely on them, they aren't that much better at absorbing the blows than any other melee character.

[LOTRfan]

Thanks guys. I'll go with a combination of much of the advice here, but I have no more question: It seems people are under the assumption that if an enemy has a reach weapon or ranged weapon, the dwarven defender is now useless. Perhaps I am missing something, but why can't Dwarven Defenders use ranged weapons? The +4 strength seems to encourage melee, yeah, but I don't recall anything regarding ranged weapons. Please keep in mind that I am away from my books at the moment, so I may be wrong.

[Boci]

Thanks guys. I'll go with a combination of much of the advice here, but I have no more question: It seems people are under the assumption that if an enemy has a reach weapon or ranged weapon, the dwarven defender is now useless. Perhaps I am missing something, but why can't Dwarven Defenders use ranged weapons? The +4 strength seems to encourage melee, yeah, but I don't recall anything regarding ranged weapons. Please keep in mind that I am away from my books at the moment, so I may be wrong.

Nothing, but 1d8+1 damage per attack is a little under whelming. If the character is focused on archery then they could do more damage, but then why are they a DD?

[LOTRfan]

Good question. What about a Knight/Dwarven Defender with the goad feat (possibly with a mindless rage item as well) who is mainly a melee fighter, but also uses throwing axes/hammers (Races of Stone) in emergencies? That way, they still benefit from their strength while using ranged weapons?

[Boci]

Good question. What about a Knight/Dwarven Defender with the goad feat (possibly with a mindless rage item as well) who is mainly a melee fighter, but also uses throwing axes/hammers (Races of Stone) in emergencies? That way, they still benefit from their strength while using ranged weapons?

Better, but you're still dealing a lot less damage. Lower damage dice, less enchantments on weapon, strength mod instead of 1.5 and no power attack. The attack is also less accurate because you're using dexterity instead of strength and most thrown weapons have a pretty short range increment. Plus you would need quick draw or quite a few crystals to full attack.