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Thread: Venerable Lich?

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    Default Venerable Lich?

    I was preparing a BBEG for a short campaign, as o was going through stats I realized that as a former human who is know well passed the qualifying age for humans to become venerable.

    Can a 400 year old Lich qualify to become venerable? If so, is it appropriate to apply all the usual penalties to physical stats for living being to an undead immortal?

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarakos View Post
    I was preparing a BBEG for a short campaign, as o was going through stats I realized that as a former human who is know well passed the qualifying age for humans to become venerable.

    Can a 400 year old Lich qualify to become venerable? If so, is it appropriate to apply all the usual penalties to physical stats for living being to an undead immortal?
    That's...a really good point. Do sentient undead get age bonuses? I feel this would be gamebreaking for Wizard liches.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Not by RAW, since Undead don't age or taking aging penalties.

    However, if the Lich was able to avoid the penalties of aging(or just took them, since Con goes out the window after lichification), he could become a Lich after aging to venerable status and retain the modifications to the base ability scores.

    Alternatively, there is the Evolved Undead template which represents a very similar thematic thing of undead gaining in power with age and exposure to sources of power, of which both fluff things a Lich would be very likely to have. I believe it's from Libris Mortis.

    As for a house rule that allows aging penalties/benefits to undead, I could see Liches and certain other undead certainly becoming stiffer with age and dessication, and more cerebral undead expanding their cognitive functions. Though I would say it'd probably be slightly different for different types of undead whether they age and what sorts of bonus/penalties they take.

    Since they are technically capable of being magically maintained with things like gentle repose as well as infusions of negative energy amongst more esoteric things not explicitly covered in the rules.

    Then again, maybe living to the point where the body's no longer capable of much/any motility is what triggers the transformation into Demi-Lich!?
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-01-09 at 11:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    IIRC, the moment you stop aging, you can still accrue the aging bonuses from being a certain age, but you don't acquire any further aging penalties after that. Nice, right?

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    I believe undead don'tget aging bonuses, because their body is kept in the state it was when they became undead, and is forever the same.
    Yeah. That was made up on the spot.

    However, there is a lovely little template called "Evolved Undead" from the Book of Bad Latin that should be what you're looking for.


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    Last edited by The-Mage-King; 2011-01-09 at 11:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Nope, any bonuses that the Lich had gained while alive would carry over, but the undead do not age. You can advance an undead by alternate means by using Evolved Undead template from Libris Mortis. Basically it states that every 100 years an undead has the chance to evolve.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    If Liches get aging penalties, that would imply that there is a maximum life on liches...

    which would mean awesome plotline for any lich long enough to figure this out! New quest: find true immortality!



    By RAW, as others pointed out, no, you don't get aging penalties or bonuses (though you keep the bonuses you have).
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Evolved undead from Libris Mortis you guys say? I never gave Libris Mortis more than a cursory glance (way too many 3.5 books not enough free time on my hands).

    Unfortunately the flashdrive that held my 3.5 books went through the wash this morning and the back up copies on my laptop are unreachable for the forseeable future (in other words until I can buy a replacement power cord for the thing) can anyone give me a brief rundown of what evolved undead are?

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarakos View Post
    Evolved undead from Libris Mortis you guys say? I never gave Libris Mortis more than a cursory glance (way too many 3.5 books not enough free time on my hands).

    Unfortunately the flashdrive that held my 3.5 books went through the wash this morning and the back up copies on my laptop are unreachable for the forseeable future (in other words until I can buy a replacement power cord for the thing) can anyone give me a brief rundown of what evolved undead are?
    You mean your legally obtained copy of the book went through the wash, right? This is what you mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deth Muncher View Post
    You mean your legally obtained copy of the book went through the wash, right? This is what you mean.
    Exactly sir

    Edit: if posting something like that is against forum rules. Then don't bother, I'll take the incentive to get off my lazy butt and buy a new cord

    Edit edit: I should have also specified that this was for a Pathfinder game and I'd like to stick as much to the Pathfinder PDFs I bought (has my name on em and everything :D) as possible I wouldn't object to adapting some 3.5 material if it fits the theme, which it seems to, and doesn't slaughter my player, which I might accidentally do on my own :(
    Last edited by Sarakos; 2011-01-10 at 12:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Every 100 years (Or whenever the DM feels like it) there is a 1% chance that an undead evolves. The changes are as follows.
    Natural or Deflection increases by 1.
    Gains SLA 1/day (Roll 1d12 to determine): Circle of Death, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Confusion, Contagion, Creeping Doom, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Haste, Hold Monster, See Invisibility, Unholy Blight.
    Gains Fast Healing 3 as long as it has at least 1hp.
    Corporeal gains +2Str/Cha, Incorporeal only gains +2 Cha
    +1 CR
    Template can be gained multiple times.
    Last edited by Waker; 2011-01-10 at 12:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    He could also mean that the book he physically owns is beyond his reach, and the pdf he legally made as a backup copy has become inaccessible. IIRC current copyright law allows you to space-shift material yourself.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    All "Evolved Undead" gives you is +2 Str and Cha, a random SLA from a wonky grabbag (some gems, some turkeys), a tiny boost to AC and some fast healing. The template can be applied multiple times, but it won't do squat for a wizard lich.

    It also increases the LA each time, though that won't matter in this case.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Evolved undead is pretty cool; just bear in mind how old you actually have to be to reasonably have evolved once or twice. As Waker said, you have a 1% chance of evolving every hundred years, so if you're going to take the template once or twice, better make sure your DM is okay with it and you're old enough to justify it. I also prefer to work out an arrangement with the DM as to what SLA you get, so you can get something flavorful for your character rather than just junky and random.
    Last edited by Dr Bwaa; 2011-01-10 at 12:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by lordhenry4000 View Post
    Evolved undead is pretty cool; just bear in mind how old you actually have to be to reasonably have evolved once or twice. As Waker said, you have a 1% chance of evolving every hundred years, so if you're going to take the template once or twice, better make sure your DM is okay with it and you're old enough to justify it. I also prefer to work out an arrangement with the DM as to what SLAs are actually on the list, so you can get something flavorful for your character rather than just random and probably obviously so.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Mage-King View Post
    He IS the DM.
    My statement stands as it is As long as you can convince yourself that 400 years is enough time to have evolved once or twice, have at it. I do think the SLAs offer some pretty flavorful customization, especially for a main character--PC or BBEG, either way.

    EDIT: Also, that reply was crazy fast. Your forum-fu is strong.
    Last edited by Dr Bwaa; 2011-01-10 at 12:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    The nice thing about the template is that you can sneak it in without changing an encounter that much, so the players won't cry too hard. Of course as a DM, you can just tailor a monster to your needs, but for those who require something to be written down, this is handy.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by lordhenry4000 View Post
    My statement stands as it is As long as you can convince yourself that 400 years is enough time to have evolved once or twice, have at it. I do think the SLAs offer some pretty flavorful customization, especially for a main character--PC or BBEG, either way.

    EDIT: Also, that reply was crazy fast. Your forum-fu is strong.
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    Last edited by The-Mage-King; 2011-01-10 at 12:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    4 1% chances, right?
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    .01 *.01 *.01 *.01 = 1.0 10-8

    .01 * .99 * .99 * .99 = 0.00970299

    .01 * .01 * .99 * .99 = 9.80100 10-5

    .01 * .01 * .01 * .99 = 9.9 10-7


    ...Dangit, I forgot what math to use here to calculate the probability of getting at least one as opposed to the probability of only getting one.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    The probability of at least 1 is:

    1 - (probability of none) = 1 - (.99)^4 = 0.03940399, or about 4%.
    Last edited by Darth Crater; 2011-01-10 at 01:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    The chances of getting X successes in N trials, where each trial has a probability P of success, is

    (N!/(X!*(N-X)!))*P^X*(1-P)^(N-X)

    This is the Binomial Distribution.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    I made a venerable lich once. He was a druid with timeless body (I ruled that since he continued to age and his brain developed, he got the mental stat bonuses, but none of the physical stat penalties. Only after he reached venerable did he undergo the process for becoming a lich.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    If Liches get aging penalties, that would imply that there is a maximum life on liches...

    which would mean awesome plotline for any lich long enough to figure this out! New quest: find true immortality!
    IIRC, back in the 1E days, Liches had to bargain with Night Hags to get Larva essences to prolong their un-lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    I made a venerable lich once. He was a druid with timeless body (I ruled that since he continued to age and his brain developed, he got the mental stat bonuses, but none of the physical stat penalties. Only after he reached venerable did he undergo the process for becoming a lich.
    That's RAW, not simply how you ruled. Timeless Body stops aging penalties but not aging bonuses.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Now if you want the most broken thing you can find...

    Lich + (non psionic) Genesis.

    They proceed to create a new plane where every second on the material plane is say...a million years on their plane, then they jump there.

    Now, bring the evolved undead template in...as it has a +1% cumulative every hundread years...thats only 10,000 years to get to 100% chance of achieving it! Now assuming they failed every single check before getting to 100...they could still get the template applied about 59,000 times in one round

    Stupid in the extreme, but funny.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    If Liches get aging penalties, that would imply that there is a maximum life on liches...
    That does not necessarily follow. Elans and killoren, for example, can age to venerable, but never die of old age.

    Warforged can age to middle-aged, some claim.
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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    What if a Dragonwrought Kobold reached venerable age before becoming a lich? Or do you mean reaching venerable age after gaining lichdom?

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Liches don't age because they are undead, not because they are immortal. You would have to become Venerable before you die.

    As for Evolved Undead, as I said before - that only works if the lich in question was a sorcerer. Evolved Undead does nothing for your Int or Wis scores.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by FelixG View Post
    Stupid in the extreme, but funny.
    Time traits aren't one of the things you get to control with Genesis, IIRC.

    Plus, your LA would be high enough after taking the template so many times that you'd probably never get experience again. And not just because the DM makes you eat your character sheet...
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-01-10 at 08:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Venerable Lich?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Time traits aren't one of the things you get to control with Genesis, IIRC.
    Arcane Genesis is broken that way.

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