[D&D 3.5] Psychic Warrior houserules

[Lateral]

Would it be a reasonable houserule to give the Psychic Warrior full BAB? It's already a decent class, so I'm not totally sure if bumping it like that is a good idea, but the fact that it only gets 3/4 BAB always seemed dumb to me. This way, it doesn't need to PrC into Illithid Slayer or something to get near-full BAB, and that's something most psychic warriors do anyway.

[Psyren]

It wouldn't break the game, but I don't see it as necessary either. They're plenty strong enough as it is.

A Psywar's true niche is natural attacks (Claws, Bite, Metamorphosis etc) and those don't benefit from BAB at all; this is why they can easily do without it.

[poignant123]

That would make the Psychic Warrior a Fighter with powers since that would mean they get everything the Fighter gets as well as it's psionic abilites.

Of course, nothing overpowered, it's just that it completely overshadows a class (an underpowered one but still overshadowed).

[HunterOfJello]

That would make the Psychic Warrior a Fighter with powers since that would mean they get everything the Fighter gets as well as it's psionic abilites.

Of course, nothing overpowered, it's just that it completely overshadows a class (an underpowered one but still overshadowed).

The fighter still has a higher hit die and gets feats faster than than a Psychic Warrior.

[Eldan]

And it already overshadows the fighter anyway.

[blueblade]

It wouldn't break the game, but I don't see it as necessary either. They're plenty strong enough as it is.

A Psywar's true niche is natural attacks (Claws, Bite, Metamorphosis etc) and those don't benefit from BAB at all; this is why they can easily do without it.

Clarification please? Do you mean he benefits from the bonus as normal, but his true source of additional attacks is natural weapons, not iterative attacks?

[Ernir]

You could make the change without unbalancing much in the grand scheme of things... I don't, however, think it is really needed. Would make it easier to qualify for a lot of "requires BAB of +x" feats, though.

If you want to make PsyWars easier to use, I'd suggest slightly increasing their PP reserve, instead.

Clarification please? Do you mean he benefits from the bonus as normal, but his true source of additional attacks is natural weapons, not iterative attacks?

Yes, that's what he means.

[Psyren]

The fighter still has a higher hit die and gets feats faster than than a Psychic Warrior.

Higher hit die is meaningless. At high levels, most of your HP come from Con; not only that, but Psywars get Vigor and Share Pain pretty much throughout their career. They are far more durable than fighters even with d8.

There was a challenge on BG for a level 6 Psywar vs. a level 6 fighter - I suggest looking it up to see just what the class is capable of even at low levels.

Clarification please? Do you mean he benefits from the bonus as normal, but his true source of additional attacks is natural weapons, not iterative attacks?

Yes; Psywars are second only to Totemists in terms of natural attack focus.

[stainboy]

The Offensive Precognition power effectively gives psychic warriors full BAB at high levels. It's a really awkward way of improving their attack bonus though. It's very optimization sensitive: you want to take Offensive Precognition at level 3, then never use it until level 7 when you can manifest it as a swift action. You also have to know how the power works, that the class design assumes you take Offensive Precognition (I think it does, at least), and ignore more interesting powers to get it.

I'd say give them full BAB, take Offensive Precognition off their power list, and if that makes psychic warriors too much better than fighters, fix fighters.

[Psyren]

Offensive Precognition is just an insight bonus to attack rolls. It doesn't give them more attacks.

The only magical way to increase your BAB that I know of is Divine Power; there is as yet no psionic equivalent.

[stainboy]

Yeah, that's true. I just think trading Offensive Precognition for full BAB is a small enough buff to be worth making the class design cleaner and more fun to play at low levels.

I guess my most important point is that if you want to give psychic warriors full BAB, don't let them take Offensive Precognition.

[Person_Man]

In addition to the superior To-Hit and efficient use of Power Attack, another big benefit of full BAB that speeds up access to various important Prestige Classes and combo Feats. In particular:

• Power Attack at level 1 instead of level 2.
• Weapon Finesse at level 1 instead of level 2, for the Dex/Wis AoO Psychic Warrior.
• Quick Draw at level 1 instead of level 2, for thrown weapon builds.
• Goad at level 1 instead of level 2, useful if you're a interested in defense over offense (and very useful when combined with Hustle, which he gets at level 4).
• Exotic Weapon proficiency at level 1 instead of level 2. Many uses.
• Winged Warrior (Races of Destiny) at level 4 instead of level 6. It lets anyone with wings create concealment/total concealment as a Move action. (again, very useful with Hustle).
• The vast majority of melee oriented PrC require BAB +5.
• Shock Trooper at level 6 instead of level 8. He also has Psionic Lion's Pounce and 4+ attacks at this level, so expect damage in the 100+ per round range at this level.
• Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6 instead of level 8 and greater Two Weapon Fighting at level 11 instead of level 15. Useful for certain builds.
• Robilar's Gambit at level 12 instead of level 16.

So nothing game breaking. It just makes the Psychic Warrior noticeably stronger at every level, especially around ECL 1-6.

The only magical way to increase your BAB that I know of is Divine Power; there is as yet no psionic equivalent.

Skillful Weapon magic weapon enhancement (Complete Arcane) grants proficiency and 3/4 BAB with the weapon it is enchanted on. So, free Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and a +1 to 5 BAB bump for 10/20 BAB builds. Useful for Incarnates, Kensai, and Gish.

[stainboy]

You could also implement it as a class feature:

At level 1, a psychic warrior gains a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls while her power point reserve is 1 or more.
At level 5, +2 while her power point reserve is 5 or more.
At level 9, +3 while her power point reserve is 9 or more.
At level 13, +4 while her power point reserve is 13 or more.
At level 17, +5 while her power point reserve is 17 or more.

It's still a buff, and if you don't want to buff psychic warriors at all you obviously shouldn't do it, but this way you effectively build Offensive Precognition into the class without granting all the other advantages of full BAB.

[Psyren]

In addition to the superior To-Hit and efficient use of Power Attack, another big benefit of full BAB that speeds up access to various important Prestige Classes and combo Feats. In particular:

*snip*

So nothing game breaking. It just makes the Psychic Warrior noticeably stronger at every level, especially around ECL 1-6.

Don't forget psionic feats - some of those have BAB requirements too.
For example:

• Aligned Attack at 6 instead of 8
• Deep Impact/Fell Shot/Greater Psionic Shot etc. at 5 instead of 7
• Ghost Attack/Return Shot at 3 instead of 4
• Wounding attack at 8 instead of 11

etc.

The Pathfinder Psywar, while still being 3/4 BAB, can actually gain access to these feats early; he can treat himself as having full BAB for the purpose of psionic feat qualification. However, some of the feats were nerfed in Pathfinder, as my guide will elaborate on in time.

[Emmerask]

Would it be a reasonable houserule to give the Psychic Warrior full BAB? It's already a decent class, so I'm not totally sure if bumping it like that is a good idea, but the fact that it only gets 3/4 BAB always seemed dumb to me. This way, it doesn't need to PrC into Illithid Slayer or something to get near-full BAB, and that's something most psychic warriors do anyway.

Except if you play a tier 1 or 2 only campaign psychic warriors are quite fine(if you are especially good with them you can hold your own even in such campaigns).
I see no good reason to give them full bab to be honest.

[Lateral]

Yeah, I realize that the PsyWar is already at a decent power level and doesn't need the boost, but it having the same BAB as a Wilder just doesn't fit with my perception of the class. I don't really care if it makes the Fighter useless; in a game where I'd apply this, the rest of the party would be made up of tier 1s, 2s, and 3s- maybe a Beguiler, a Crusader, a Sorcerer, and the Psychic Warrior.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I realize that the PsyWar is already at a decent power level and doesn't need the boost, but it having the same BAB as a Wilder just doesn't fit with my perception of the class. I don't really care if it makes the Fighter useless; in a game where I'd apply this, the rest of the party would be made up of tier 1s, 2s, and 3s- maybe a Beguiler, a Crusader, a Sorcerer, and the Psychic Warrior.

Personally, I'd rather build the Wilder up - make it more gish-focused, like a Battle Sorcerer - than the Psywar.

Pathfinder took a step in the right direction along these lines, but only a step.

[Lateral]

Well, yeah, but now you're stepping on the Psychic Warrior's toes. I'd rather take Wilder in a different direction. Plus, I'm not trying to make any big fixes. I'm just wondering if psychic warrior plus full BAB still equals reasonable power level.

[Keld Denar]

Also, Rapid Strike has a BAB prereq of +10, so a PsyWar with full BAB could take it at 12, while one without it couldn't take it till 15, and Improved Rapid Strike requires +15 BAB, which a normal PsyWar couldn't take pre-epic.

[Psyren]

Well, yeah, but now you're stepping on the Psychic Warrior's toes.

I disagree; a Battle Sorcerer can do lots of things a Duskblade can't, but nobody ever says "Always take Battle Sorcerer, never take Duskblade." I'm seeing the same kind of interaction here between a Wilder and a Psywar.

Granted, a Duskblade does have full BAB - so perhaps I'm just proving your point (However, a Psywar is still stronger than a Duskblade out of the box; no ASF, better proficiencies, feats a more mutable spell list...) those advantages could make up for 3/4 BAB.

[Lateral]

Well, actually, the Ardent already does a similar thing. It has 9th level spells and way more PP, but trades bonus feats, proficiencies, and hit dice for it. The HD doesn't really matter much, so it's really just the bonus feats and proficiencies. Proficiencies and bonus feats DO NOT EQUAL 9th level spells, so Ardents are pretty clearly better than Psychic Warriors as things stand.

[Psyren]

Well, actually, the Ardent already does a similar thing. It has 9th level spells and way more PP, but trades bonus feats, proficiencies, and hit dice for it. The HD doesn't really matter much, so it's really just the bonus feats and proficiencies. Proficiencies and bonus feats DO NOT EQUAL 9th level spells, so Ardents are pretty clearly better than Psychic Warriors as things stand.

True, but Ardents are T2. If that's the power level of your game, by all means boost Psywars; but most games consider T2 to be on the high-end of power, not the baseline.

[Gnaeus]

What if you split the difference? Something like "A Psychic Warrior qualifies for feats and PRCs as if he had full BAB, but determines To-Hit and Iteratives as if he had 3/4 BAB".

[Lateral]

No, I know that. That doesn't mean they're stepping on the Psychic Warrior's toes any less. I'm not saying that the fact that a tier 3 class is weaker than a tier 2 is bad in any way, but Psychic Warriors are reasonably low in the tier 3 food chain (below Warblades and Crusaders, but above Swordsages IIRC). I'd just like to push them up a bit in a game where the rest of the party are between low tier 2 and high tier 3.

@Gnaeus: That's not what I want full BAB for, though. The iteratives and to-hit are the whole point.

[Emmerask]

Hm I think giving them more pp would be a better idea in that case.
Or give them the Soulbound Weapon acf for free

[Greenish]

but Psychic Warriors are reasonably low in the tier 3 food chain (below Warblades and Crusaders, but above Swordsages IIRC).

Though not as easy to build well as martial adepts, psywarrs are, if anything, stronger than the ToB classes.

But since you just want validation: no, giving psywarrs full BAB won't wreck and tear apart your game, nor cause you to be hit by bolts of lightning in a divine retribution, and frenzied masses are unlikely to tear you apart for your sacrilege.

[Psyren]

I'm not saying that the fact that a tier 3 class is weaker than a tier 2 is bad in any way, but Psychic Warriors are reasonably low in the tier 3 food chain (below Warblades and Crusaders, but above Swordsages IIRC).

Where on earth did you get that? A Psywar can mop the floor with anything in ToB, using only the SRD.

[Emmerask]

One that is build well yes, a badly build one will lose even against a badly build warblade at least that is my observation from gameplay

frenzied masses are unlikely to tear you apart for your sacrilege.

*Puts away his pitchfork* Awww man

[Lateral]

Though not as easy to build well as martial adepts, psywarrs are, if anything, stronger than the ToB classes.

Where on earth did you get that? A Psywar can mop the floor with anything in ToB, using only the SRD.

Really? I was under the impression that the general consensus was that Psychic Warriors were slightly weaker. Of the ToB classes, I've only ever used the Warblade, and only just recently, so I guess I don't really have much of a grasp of the ToB classes' PL.

But since you just want validation: no, giving psywarrs full BAB won't wreck and tear apart your game, nor cause you to be hit by bolts of lightning in a divine retribution, and frenzied masses are unlikely to tear you apart for your sacrilege.

Oh, good. I was worried for a second there.

[Keld Denar]

One word.

Metamorphosis

That is all.