[3.5] Alter Self: How do you learn the forms IC?

[yldenfrei]

Ok, so roleplaying question. My character has Alter Self. OoC I want her to have access to at least the useful humanoids (merfolk, avarial, spirit folks, etc.--the DM was lenient enough to allow all WotC books).

Problem is, she's not really the bardic knowledge type (she took Lore Song). And she only has a whopping total of 8 ranks in Knowledge (Local).

So, short of making a pilgrimage to every city library in the land, how can one reasonably acquire the different forms for Alter Self?

[KillianHawkeye]

This question is highly subjective without any hard and fast rules, so in the end it will always come down to how an individual DM chooses to run it.

In general, just like with the Druid's wild shape, I'd say that you need to be personally familiar with the creature in question, so going to the library won't be very helpful unless the books you find have extensive illustrations. Usually, just seeing the creature live and up close is enough.

Now, one thing you can do is to try and have contact with these creatures in your backstory. For example, if your character used to live by the coast, you can probably say that you've seen a mermaid or two at some point.

For anything that isn't reasonably common, I'd rule that you'd need to have that exposure in your past or else you need to encounter that creature sometime during the game. But again, that's my personal ruling as a DM. YMMV.

[JaronK]

8 points in Knowledge Local would allow you to at least know about anything up to 18 HD, which is obviously plenty. Even taking 10 you'll know about every possible Alter Self form... which you'd think would tell you the most interesting (and thus most commonly known) details about that form. For example, you should know that Aquatic Elves have the fastest swim speed of all humanoids, and that Crucians have the highest NA. From there you'd need to go to a library or something and get more information.

JaronK

[Prime32]

The alternative route is that you aren't using alter self to take the form of, say, a raptoran. You're using it to give yourself wings, and the end result has the stats of a raptoran.

[Benly]

8 points in Knowledge Local would allow you to at least know about anything up to 18 HD, which is obviously plenty. Even taking 10 you'll know about every possible Alter Self form... which you'd think would tell you the most interesting (and thus most commonly known) details about that form. For example, you should know that Aquatic Elves have the fastest swim speed of all humanoids, and that Crucians have the highest NA. From there you'd need to go to a library or something and get more information.

JaronK

You can't take 20 on a Knowledge check (no retry) so 8 ranks only reliably gets you up to 8 HD or CR 8 depending on whether the DM goes by the skill's listing or the guidelines established by the knowledge blocks in the later Monster Manuals. Fortunately, this is still plenty for Alter Self either way, as you point out.

Also, "highest natural armor of all humanoids" and "fastest swim speed of all humanoids" isn't quite in line with the first-tier knowledge presented in those blocks, which will tell you a single useful attribute about them ("crucians are tough and sturdy") rather than concrete knowledge of which form is best to Alter Self into. Technically, a character making the first-tier check wouldn't necessarily know that crucians are sturdier than troglodytes, or whether a raptoran or avariel flies faster, or whether merfolk or aquatic elves swim faster. This is not likely to be a big deal, but you might want to mix it up now and then for internal consistency's sake. (Especially in cases when it doesn't really matter if you're getting the second-best. )

[T.G. Oskar]

You can't take 20 on a Knowledge check (no retry) so 8 ranks only reliably gets you up to 8 HD or CR 8 depending on whether the DM goes by the skill's listing or the guidelines established by the knowledge blocks in the later Monster Manuals. Fortunately, this is still plenty for Alter Self either way, as you point out.

Actually: Jaron is saying "take 10", instead of "take 20". Basically, you can do take 10 pretty much at any time, except for one or two skills (UMD comes to mind). Basically, instead of analyzing the creature, you're "scanning" it and comparing it with your database. Plus, you're forgetting the effect of your Int in the roll: with 14 or more, you essentially know the basics of most (if not all) creatures, even with a 1 on the roll; with take 10, you'd get all info up to 20.

[Zergrusheddie]

I always thought that the familiarity rule only applied to Wildshape, though adding it to Polymorph and Friends doesn't make them any less powerful.

[Gullintanni]

You can't take 20 on a Knowledge check (no retry) so 8 ranks only reliably gets you up to 8 HD or CR 8 depending on whether the DM goes by the skill's listing or the guidelines established by the knowledge blocks in the later Monster Manuals. Fortunately, this is still plenty for Alter Self either way, as you point out.

Given that Alter Self has 5 HD limit, 8 HD encompasses every possible form you could ever be eligible for.

[Keinnicht]

Most of the time, I'd say you'd be familiar enough with it to do so. Maybe not a really obscure being, but pretty much everyone knows what a mermaid looks like, and what they'd need to change to make themselves look like a mermaid.

[Benly]

Actually: Jaron is saying "take 10", instead of "take 20".

His mention of knowing about creatures with up to 18 HD would require taking 20 on a +8 check. The target is 10 + HD or 10 + CR depending on what book you're reading. I know how taking 10 works, which is why I acknowledge that +8 is plenty up to 8 HD or CR 8 (which should cover everything Alter Self includes, unless there's some low-HD high-CR monstrosity I'm forgetting and the DM is using the CR-based estimation.)

Plus, you're forgetting the effect of your Int in the roll: with 14 or more, you essentially know the basics of most (if not all) creatures, even with a 1 on the roll; with take 10, you'd get all info up to 20.

With a 14 Int, 8 ranks, and a 1 on the roll, you would get information on a 1-HD or CR 1 creature only. The target, again, is 10 + HD or 10 + CR, not a straight check against HD or CR.

[yldenfrei]

Thanks for the input guys, I think I'm having ideas how to explain knowledge of particular creatures without sounding too cheesy.

Prime32's alternative fluff led me to another question: Does Alter Self require you to change your whole form, or can you alter parts of yourself?

Say you wish to have wings, and a basic knowledge that raptorans are humanoids with wings. So you alter yourself to have wings. And then, through trial and error (encompassing days, depending on how often you can cast Alter Self), you alter parts of yourself little by little to be able to successfully fly. OoC, such alterations will net you the racial bonuses of the raptoran, but IC, you still look like a human with wings (and some other minor raptoran features).

So wishing to swim and having knowledge of the merfolk, you alter your legs to become a tail with fins. Or wanting to hide better and having a knowledge of skulks, you alter your skin to be able to blend with your surroundings.

I think that's more realistic for acquiring racial bonuses and such. It feels really cheesy to be able to fully mimic a creature type from head to toe without encountering them in the flesh. What do you guys think?

Of course, using Alter Self for disguise is a different matter.

[Mando Knight]

Say you wish to have wings, and a basic knowledge that raptorans are humanoids with wings. So you alter yourself to have wings. And then, through trial and error (encompassing days, depending on how often you can cast Alter Self), you alter parts of yourself little by little to be able to successfully fly. OoC, such alterations will net you the racial bonuses of the raptoran, but IC, you still look like a human with wings (and some other minor raptoran features).

So wishing to swim and having knowledge of the merfolk, you alter your legs to become a tail with fins. Or wanting to hide better and having a knowledge of skulks, you alter your skin to be able to blend with your surroundings.

I think that's more realistic for acquiring racial bonuses and such. It feels really cheesy to be able to fully mimic a creature type from head to toe without encountering them in the flesh. What do you guys think?

For experimentation in Alter Self, I would allow it if you devoted several days' worth of slots dedicated to the spell and some Spellcraft checks to represent trying to fine-tune your spell more than most beings generally do, with the check (and time required) getting easier if you have an example to work with (such as a winged-elf or merfolk friend for the biggest bonus, but flying or aquatic non-humanoids would also give a slight bonus). Then, after you complete the required checks to develop the new form, you get to use it normally.

[Thurbane]

I always thought that the familiarity rule only applied to Wildshape, though adding it to Polymorph and Friends doesn't make them any less powerful.

By RAW, I think you're correct. However, it is entirely reasonable for a DM to disallow a form that the character is completely unfamiliar with...