D&D vs. Military - Discussion of 4 scenarios detailed in the first post

[Aharon]

The other thread has become a bit cluttered, but I find the idea interesting, so I tried to make the scenarios a bit clearer. This may pose problems, as I sometimes refer to specific source books.

Rules:
Nothing from TO is assumed to be used by the D&D side. There was a PDF called "The Very Best of CO", but I can't find it right now. I have it at home, so I will add items to this list. Right now, the things I remember, plus some that were proposed in the thread

• No Pun-Pun
• No Omniscificer
• No Dorfls
• No Thought Bottles
• No Nanobots
• No Consumptive Field Abuse
• Nothing from the Jakeverse
• A wish can never give you more wishes in any way, therefore, no infinite wish chains. (proposed by Eldan)
• The gods do not interfere
• Magic: Magic does continue to work on earth, but you need the spark of magic to cast spells. It's still discussed wether our side can learn magic after this spark has come in contact with earth.
• Physics/Science: Physics and science that make the scenarios flat-out impossible is ignored/explained away with magic. Generally, d20modern rules are used to model aspects of our world. If you object to a specific part, please state the reason in the discussion.
• Please use canon NPCs where possible. If you don't want to do that, use NPCs generated by the DMG advice for generating settlements - i.e., core, single-classed characters only. Information on city population sizes can be found in the setting-specific wikis, a town generator can be found here.
• Nuclear weapons: 1MT warheads deal half energy, half force damage, 160d8 (based on discussion here and here, and roughly on the rules in the d20 modern SRD) .
• Nonnuclear heavy weaponry (high-yield bombs, artillery and tank ammunition) deals the damage values given in the d20MSRD, but is half force, half sonic/bludgeoning (The Glyphstones Proposal)
• In the scenario-world, the exact D&D rules aren't known on Earth. Similar games may exist, but it's not a situation in which our side can realize and exploit the rules just by looking them up in a sourcebook.

If you feel that these rules are too restrictive or that rules should be added, please say so.

Now, onto the scenarios:
1) Without forewarning, a two-way gate (as the spell, but with instantaneous duration) opens between Madrid, Spain and Suzail, the capital of Cormyr. The year on Earth is 2010, the year in the Forgotten Realms is the last year before the edition change (would be around 1380, but I'm not sure).

Spain was chosen because it is among the top 20 military spenders. I am not dead set on using Spain for this scenario, but I object to using the USA, because it's military spending is far higher than that of any nation. To compare the two, one would have to use a superpower on the Fantasy side, too - and to my knowledge, no D&D setting has such a superpower. Feel free to correct me.

Objectives of either side aren't clear, and should be discussed in this thread before we go on to wether there would be a conflict or not. I'm inclined to think that the Earth side might try to impose its cultural values (The average cormyrian peasant is probably worse off than the average real world African, for example). If the discussion goes in this direction, we will have to be careful to avoid discussing real world politics.

2) As in the other thread, Khorvaire appears in the middle of the pacific ocean. If you have the relevant knowledge, it would be interesting if you shared how this would affect climate patterns etc. Assume that the water and islands reappear on Eberron, so that there are no floods or Tsunamis caused by the sudden change. I do not know the exact size of Khorvaire, but I guess that this might make Hawai disappear, so in this scenario, the USA are directly effected.
Again, outright war does not neccessarily happen, we should discuss the objectives of both sides first.

3) The city detailed in the last 3.5 Drow book, Erelhei-Cinlu, appears under the Alps, along with a cavern network that has contact to the surface and enough caverns to sustain their food production. Lolth orders them to attack the surface, but wisely adds that they can - and should - take their time to prepare. She gives them 30 years to gain at least a part of the surface - say, Bavaria.

4) Iran suddenly appears in the Western Heartlands of Faerun. The ground under them is dislocated as well, so they have all the resources that are underground, specifically oil.
(If you think this is too likely to lead to political discussions, please substitute another 2nd world country that is rich in oil, for example Russia, Norway or another country high on this list.

And now - have fun!

[Eldan]

I would actually add a few rules, such as:

A wish can never give you more wishes in any way, therefore, no infinite wish chains.

As on scenario two and it's influence on climate: I'm not very good with climate, I must admit, but a short summary of my opinion as an ecologist is "total f-up".
Weather patterns change massively all over the globe. Currents are stopped. Heat exchange would be screwed up. We suddenly have less water and more dry land, which massively changes things such as how much sunlight is absorbed vs. reflected by the earth (I'd predict heating from that, but I'm not quite sure). Less water surface furthermore means less absorption of carbon dioxide into water. Potentially balanced by Khorvaire having a lot of jungles in it's southern half, but that shouldn't actually influence much.

Edit: in any kind of realistic set-up, the Drow caves would either instantly fill with water or be immensely heated up, perhaps both

More edits: as I've said before, Khorvaire, as compared to many other D&D settings, has a lot more common with contemporary earth. At least the civilized states show a lot of signs of essentially being Victorian in some aspects. There's working international trade, a banking system, large-scale manufacturing, professional armies and a formalized education system. Furthermore, a lot of the great powers of the setting are either sealed away, on different continents or more or less passive.
Therefore, Khorvaire landing on earth (discarding climate effects for now) should largely result in what is basically a trade and technology revolution on both sides. Khorvaire should understand the promises and advantages of technology, and their magic is a lot more applicable to us than that of most settings, since they produce consumer goods and lots of them.

[Aharon]

That happens when you don't know the science behind that kind of thing

So let's either put their caverns above sea-level (i.e., under the mountains that make up the alps, but not under sea-level), or let's assume that their city already incorporates the neccessary technology to prevent flooding (There's precedence for that in fantasy, I think Pratchett's dwarfs do pump out the water). The heat would lead to lots of naked drow, I don't think anyone would object to that

But to err on the side of caution, the "below mountains, above sea-level" might be the better solution.

[Eldan]

Actually...

(sorry for the nit-picking, but I enjoy it immensely )

Ground water levels in the alps are high above sea level. After all, you can have springs very high up. I know quite a few caves, and a lot of them have underground lakes. Furthermore, there's snowmelt, which provides enormous volumes of water every spring.

So, your best bet is saying "there's magic that prevents the Underdark from flooding". Or just ignoring it.

Ironically, I was also the one proposing that scenario, along with the Khorvaire one.

[Emmerask]

I think a few more rulings should really be made before the discussion starts ^^

-Foremost I would say is magic, is it something everyone could do or does one need a spark of magic to be able to practice it?
Seeing that magic prevents the underdark from being flooded does take away the possibility of a dead magic zone, I see only the magic spark "theory" holding up.
-I think we should ignore all physics involved ^^
-Gods should likewise not be used except for enabling casters to cast their spells.
-Also I think that earth should have materials that have similar properties to adamantine, cold iron etc.

[Eldan]

Well, according to d20 modern, a modern battle tank has the same hardness as adamantine, so there's that. Apparently, our steel (or whatever tanks are made off) is pretty impressive.

Cold Iron seems to be a special material in D&D, where historically, it just refers to any iron and steel.

[*.*.*.*]

Can radiation kill Big T? If not, hell yeah DND Godzilla. CR 3 monsters can kill you, but not nuclear weaponry

[FelixG]

Can radiation kill Big T? If not, hell yeah DND Godzilla. CR 3 monsters can kill you, but not nuclear weaponry

If I recall correctly D20 modern nukes state that anything that gets caught in the blast just ceases to be.. And if Big T does survive...well he will be embedded in a good deal of glass and stone for a while.

[Eldan]

With T's strength, smashing its way out shouldn't be too hard. And I assume it could regenerate from a nuke, even. I mean, it's pretty clear about "regenerates from everything". If divine fire can't incinerate you, why should a nuke?

[FelixG]

With T's strength, smashing its way out shouldn't be too hard. And I assume it could regenerate from a nuke, even. I mean, it's pretty clear about "regenerates from everything". If divine fire can't incinerate you, why should a nuke?

Because some concessions need to be made to both sides for such a debate to work. otherwise this:

"Well if the place was teleported to the real world we don't have magic so neither would they"

[*.*.*.*]

Also, couldn't mages destroy cities with locate city bombs or Apocalypse from the Sky(BoVD)? Hell, a 1st level necromancer could probably create a wightocalypse to wipe out earth.

[Eldan]

The Wightocalypse or Shadowcalypse is still the greatest problem, yes. That just can't be conveniently stopped with D&D means, short of shooting anyone who has their abilities drained before they are converted.

Now the Locate City bomb... that never worked in the first place, and if it did, should be excluded.

Apocalpyse from the sky uses an artefact, if I remember, and those should be rare enough.

[Zombimode]

(The average cormyrian peasant is probably worse off than the average real world African, for example).

I beg your pardon?
You are talking about the war-torn, malaria infected and aids ridden barren wastes of the forgotten continent?
No thanks, I will stick with lush middle-european and mostly monster-free landscape of Cormyr with a mostly working social structure, good basic level of education for everyone with borders protected by war wizards.

[Aharon]

@all scenarios
I agree with Emmerasks proposal regarding no godly interventions and will add them to the first post if nobody objects.
About the magic spark:
This seems the most elegant solution. You can only cast if you have the magic spark, and there hasn't been anybody with that ability until 2010. We now have to discuss wether contact with this spark spreads it on earth, or if it stays confined to those originally from the casting side. This is especially important in the Khorvaire and the Erelhei-Cinlu scenarios, as their magic would cease to work once all the casters have died.
About the special materials thing: I'm not sure yet wether I agree or not, but I see the significance if hostilities do happen => DR isn't a problem for tanks, but normal weapons could be made a lot more effective if we have access to special materials.
As a compromise, I would propose that Earth does have the materials based on real world stuff - cold iron, silver, maybe iron wood -, but doesn't have the clearly magical stuff - darkwood, adamantine, mithral.

Ignoring all physics potentially makes the Khorvaire scenario less interesting, and makes it hard to judge some potential interactions. I would propose: Let's ignore all physics that would make one of the scenarios flat-out impossible, or explain them away with magic.

=> Khorvaire Scenario
What do you think? Should we disregard the climate effects Khorvaire would have? If we do, I think Eldan's scenario of trade with mutual benefit would be likely. Is there anything else interesting to happen in that case? How would we interact with several monarchies suddenly popping up? How would the world react to intelligent robots?
=> Drow Scenario
I think we agree on magic as a solution to hot drowning drow.

@*.*.*.*
I think this would be more suited for the other thread. Big T is neither on Khorvaire, nor in Erelhei-Cinlu, and, to my knowledge, not active in the Forgotten Realms. Or do you see any reason why Big T would attack transposed!Iran or suddenly appear in Suzail, go through the portal and wreck havoc in Madrid?

But the point about nuclear weapons is worthwhile to discuss. Eldan, could you provide a source for your claim? I tried finding nukes in the d20 modern SRD, but they seem to be placed counterintuitively - didn't find them.
If regeneration is absolutely limited to the specific materials, a nuke wouldn't kill a large amount of D&D critters - from lowly ogre mages to the mighty solar.

Does anyone object against generally modelling the real world by d20 modern rules, unless there seems something really off?
(For example, I think deseases aren't modelled well in this system.)

@Zombimode
Africa is large, and doesn't solely consist of Darfur, Congo and Zimbabwe. While I wouldn't want to live there, I think it's still better in, say Algeria or South Africa than in Cormyr. If you're inclined to get more information, here's the wikipedia article on the subect of african economy.

@Wightocalypse/Shadowcalypse
Do you think we should just ban it?
If not, in which scenario do you think it is likely to happen?
1)
Would Cormyr try to use it on Spain? If so, for what reason?
2)
Would some power group from Khorvaire use it on the rest of the world? If so, which and for what reason?
3)
Would someone use it on Iran? If so, who and for what reason?
4)
Would the drow use it? Which power group within Erelhei-Cinlu is likely to have this idea? Would it be an unanimous decision? Would some drow prefer to keep the surfacers as slaves? What would happen if one of the notoriously backstabby drow killed the controller of the shadow/wight that started the apocalypse?

[*.*.*.*]

Or do you see any reason why Big T would attack transposed!Iran or suddenly appear in Suzail, go through the portal and wreck havoc in Madrid?

I've seen Telepaths who easily crank their save DCs high enough to dominate him

[Aharon]

@*.*.*.*
Yes, that's nice, I know the rules make lots of stuff possible. There is another thread for the general discussion of a modern army vs. D&D found here. I didn't ask wether it was possible or not, but why it would actually happen.

So, if you're actually interested in discussing specific scenarios, it would be nice if you looked in the Forgotten realms wiki, for example under the Cormyr section, or in any FR-sourcebook you have available, and told us which Telepath in the FR would come up with a plot to find the Tarrasque and unleash it on Earth/transposed!Iran, and why he would do so.

[*.*.*.*]

@*.*.*.*
Yes, that's nice, I know the rules make lots of stuff possible. There is another thread for the general discussion of a modern army vs. D&D found here. I didn't ask wether it was possible or not, but why it would actually happen.

My apologies

[Eldan]

I have no idea where nukes do in d20 modern, my knowledge of that system is very limited.

However, I mainly named the Tarrasque because it explicitly says in the rules:

No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect

Which seems to cover even nukes, to me.

As for any kind of Spawncapolypse: it can easily happen, as there are low level spells to summon the undead. Khorvaire, as the example I know best, has it's own organizations that could almost be called terrorist groups. The Emerald Claw and the Blood of Vol are both undead focused, evil, and power-hungry, and I could see them trying this tactic.

[Aharon]

@*.*.*.*
No problem, you were trying to be helpful It's just that the general stuff was already extensively discussed.

Now, I looked up psionics in the realms here, and it seems that no psionic power group in or near Cormyr exists. There are two such organizations near Iran, in Thethyr and in Skullport. But the question remains why they would try such a non-obvious way, especially considering that there is no sourcebook information on where the Tarrasque's layer can be found (at least that I know of).

@Eldan
As far as my rules-knowledge goes, the Tarrasque's regeneration is only special because, unlike other creatures, it doesn't give any way except wishing it dead that stops it. So if the Tarrasque's regeneration is unaffected by nuclear weapons, the same is true for some other creatures with regeneration (though a point could be made that part of the damage from a nuclear explosion would be fire damage, so creatures whose regeneration is beaten by fire would still die).

@Blood of Vol and Emerald Claw
I'll keep in mind to look at those organizations. This opens up interesting territory, as we already determined in the other thread that D&D-World has a significant advantage at skirmishes and terrorist-style fighting.

[2xMachina]

A single thrallherd could wreck havok. Get thralls, set them to go back to where they work (steal info etc), and go axe-crazy. When they die, ANOTHER fella becomes their thrall for free.

Rinse and repeat.

As for motivation... There's always crazy megalomaniacs. Else, where do BBEG's come from?

[Eldan]

@Eldan
As far as my rules-knowledge goes, the Tarrasque's regeneration is only special because, unlike other creatures, it doesn't give any way except wishing it dead that stops it. So if the Tarrasque's regeneration is unaffected by nuclear weapons, the same is true for some other creatures with regeneration (though a point could be made that part of the damage from a nuclear explosion would be fire damage, so creatures whose regeneration is beaten by fire would still die).

Here I meant specifically the "disintegration and death effects" part. Read this part of the regeneration rules:

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

So, if nukes kill in some way without dealing damage or is an instant-death effect, it would kill anything other than a Tarrasque, which has a specific exception against them.

[Aharon]

@2xMachina
Thank you for your input But this thread is about above specific scenarios. The general stuff was already extensively discussed here.

So, if you're actually interested in discussing specific scenarios, it would be nice if you looked up actual Thrallherds in the Forgotten Realms near the Western Heartlands, Cormyr, Erelhei-Cilnu or on Khorvaire, and detailed why they would do that.

You're the second person to provide a specific scenario, so I guess I'll better change the thread title. Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Eldan]

Thrallherds would probably be specifically mentioned somewhere if one existed in Eberron. You start that class at level 6, while most NPCs are not that high-leveled. There are a few people of up to level 20 around on Khorvaire (that flesh-warper Transmuter wizard, the level 20 awakened tree of the druid orders, the lolipope...), but generally, you could probably do an E6 game in Eberron without changing much about the setting.

[2xMachina]

I assumed that it's probably likely there exists at least a single thrallherd in such a large area.

I felt thrallherds are BBEG material. Creepy mind controller finding a new world would probably try to take it over, screw what the authorities think.

EDIT: Unless you want Canon characters only? Nothing that was never mentioned in books?

[Amiel]

Nukes are tricky because the immense quantities of radiation that permeates an area after fallout deal an untyped damage type and causes mutations. Perhaps these mutations are of an unspecified conclusion.

A tarrasque may not be immune to this untyped damage and possibly also not to the mutagenic effects.

[Eldan]

Agreed on the mutations, but the untyped damage would be converted to nonlethal by any kind of regeneration. That's normal for all untyped damages.

However, if I had to stat radiation, I would make it ability damage/drain/burn.

[Killer Angel]

To compare the two, one would have to use a superpower on the Fantasy side, too - and to my knowledge, no D&D setting has such a superpower. Feel free to correct me.

Don't know if Thay can count, at least in terms of sheer power. After all, it's a magocracy very aggressive.

[Amiel]

Agreed on the mutations, but the untyped damage would be converted to nonlethal by any kind of regeneration. That's normal for all untyped damages.

However, if I had to stat radiation, I would make it ability damage/drain/burn.

I don't where I read it, but I seem to recall that untyped damage bypasses all DR? I think the logic went that since it is unspecified damage, no DR can negate it. Or am I misremembering?

Good idea on the ability damage/drain/burn; I'll probably make it deal all three.

[Aharon]

@2xMachina
I probably didn't make it explicit enough in the first post. It seemed like the wisest thing to avoid rules exploits - high level magic is already incredibly powerful without the exploits, and if we add extremely optimised builds, the conclusion seems forfeit that magic wins (that was the conclusion of the general discussion). That's why I tried to add constraints that would make both sides stand on more even footing.
As a compromise, I will add a rule for NPC generation above.

I actually like your scenario, but it would be probably easier if we tried to put it in one of the four categories. It's probably suited best for either the Khorvaire goes to Earth one or the Madrid-Suzail Gate one. Do you agree that a standard Enchanter could essentially do the same? If you agree, let's use that as a baseline.

[Eldan]

I don't where I read it, but I seem to recall that untyped damage bypasses all DR? I think the logic went that since it is unspecified damage, no DR can negate it. Or am I misremembering?

Good idea on the ability damage/drain/burn; I'll probably make it deal all three.

You seem to be. Specifially:
Regeneration is not a form of damage reduction. While unspecified damage is usually magical and does bypass damage reduction, it does not negate regeneration. It is still damage, and regeneration converts all damage except specified types to nonlethal.