Why I Dislike GURPS

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

GURPS is a well designed system with flexible character creation, good combat mechanics, lots of role-playing opportunities, and well-balanced rules. The lack of classes is liberating, the lack of experience points is refreshing, and no-dice character creation is enjoyable.
So why do I dislike GURPS? The simple reason is that there is too much fluffy nothing. Over the years GURPS has absorbed from supplements such a huge volume of character options, skills, monsters, equipment, and rules that anything useful gets lost in the blurb of pointless extras. SJ Games has added so much nothing that the game had to be split into two books just to be playable.
What I would love to see for GURPS 5th Edition is a relatively inexpensive core book containing nothing but the core essentials (about 225 pages long). It would have streamlined rules, simplified everything, and a much smaller pool of options.

[Zuljita]

I disagree with your statement that the extras are pointless, they have very valid uses, just not in the type of game you intend to play. The struggle with trying to strip down a generic system is that if you cut out too much it stops being generic. The plethora of options is essentially a requirement for a system that can do *anything*.

I suggest using GCA (Gurps Character Assistant) to filter out the undesirable features for you.

have you looked at gurps lite at all? Its free and very stripped down.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I suggest using GCA (Gurps Character Assistant) to filter out the undesirable features for you.

Thank you, but I'm going to stick with BRP until GURPS makes the changes I want.

[Zuljita]

Thank you, but I'm going to stick with BRP until GURPS makes the changes I want.

Fair enough, just don't expect that to happen any time soon... they seem to be moving in the opposite direction. Gurps core in 3rd ed was 1 book, then they added 2 compendiums full of extra crunch on top of the flavor/crunch formula of all their other splatbooks.
4th ed just went ahead and released a 2 volume basic set. I expect this to be the norm for them henceforth.

**edit**
It bears mentioning that gurps 3rd edition lasted 10 years, may be 2014 or later before we see a 5th ed.

[Kurald Galain]

I find GURPS to be inelegant.

For example, the way a simple thing like charisma could have been dealt with as a simple attribute, but instead uses complex set of advantages and disadvantages. Or the way most skills default to two or three other skills with varying modifiers.

However, most of their setting books are excellently written and well-researched, and can easily be used in any other game system.

[fusilier]

Yeah, I thought it was strange that they went to two core books in 4th edition. I played it once or twice, but still run things in 3rd. Most people say that the rules are laid out better in 4th, and are more easily grasped.

While I still prefer GURPS to many other systems, I do understand your frustration. I view it as a strength that GURPS is so large and flexible, but it does require more time figuring out which rules are actually necessary for the particular game you are running, and which can be ignored. I view that onus as belonging to the GM, but I'm one of those players who is perfectly content to let the GM tell him how things work, rather than knowing all the pertinent rules himself. Certainly, if you are a player who wants to know all the rules, that could be very frustrating.

[Zuljita]

I find GURPS to be inelegant.

For example, the way a simple thing like charisma could have been dealt with as a simple attribute, but instead uses complex set of advantages and disadvantages. Or the way most skills default to two or three other skills with varying modifiers.

However, most of their setting books are excellently written and well-researched, and can easily be used in any other game system.

I honestly like it better this way. In 3.5 there is a fair bit of argument over what exactly charisma represents. Gurps went ahead and broke it down into all its possible components, then let you get each of them separately, which to me, is more elegant. that said i can totally see it your way too.

[Kaldrin]

So why do I dislike GURPS? The simple reason is that there is too much fluffy nothing. Over the years GURPS has absorbed from supplements such a huge volume of character options, skills, monsters, equipment, and rules that anything useful gets lost in the blurb of pointless extras. SJ Games has added so much nothing that the game had to be split into two books just to be playable.

The necessity of the rules heavy system was because it is a simulation of realistic responses to situations. After that, the added non-realistic options. It all takes extra pages. I believe they've limited their user base by doing this. Do I care? No, because I'm one of the guys who likes to rebuild the core and options each time I play.

[Kaldrin]

I find GURPS to be inelegant.

For example, the way a simple thing like charisma could have been dealt with as a simple attribute, but instead uses complex set of advantages and disadvantages. Or the way most skills default to two or three other skills with varying modifiers.

More complex than a single attribute to define all human personality and interaction with? Sure. Complex? No. Any game that defines all human interaction with a single roll or attribute is kludge. Pure and simple. As I pointed out before, GURPS focuses on trying to be realistic, separating out what should be separate and joining what should be joined.

A system where I can make a talking squirrel, a sentient family dog, a walking building or a fantasy wizard has to be elegant by design, or it won't work.

[Ragitsu]

What "fluffy nothing"? Cite examples.

Do people not get what GENERIC means? I see fantasy gamers upset that rules for modern/sci-fi stuff are included, and modern/sci-fi gamers upset that rules for fantasy stuff are included. This is RIDICULOUS! The system, by design, has to appeal to a broad spectrum of gamers.

Sheesh...

---

Also, if they'd have released one book, it would be MASSIVE.

---

For example, the way a simple thing like charisma could have been dealt with as a simple attribute, but instead uses complex set of advantages and disadvantages.

Of course, a system where Charisma is some nebulous attribute that includes attractiveness, bearing, "animal magnetism", leadership qualities and so forth is much more flexible when it comes to character concepts...right?

Didn't think so.

At least with GURPS, there are marked differences between the slightly unattractive, yet excellent leader and the beautiful, but social wreck of a lady.

Or the way most skills default to two or three other skills with varying modifiers.

Considering that certain related skills are MORE related than others, and so present a better (lesser penalty to roll) Default, this makes great sense.

[Dragonmuncher]

Of course, a system where Charisma is some nebulous attribute that includes attractiveness, bearing, "animal magnetism", leadership qualities and so forth is much more flexible when it comes to character concepts...right?

Didn't think so.

At least with GURPS, there are marked differences between the slightly unattractive, yet excellent leader and the beautiful, but social wreck of a lady.

Eh. The 6 core D&D stats can always be broken down into more specific stats.

Dexterity- is it just fast reflexes? Is it how good you are with your hands? Being ambidextrous? Dodging? Dancing? I could picture someone fast but clumsy.

Constitution- is it just endurance, like a distance runner? Someone resistant against disease? Resistant against damage? A marathon runner could be take forever to get tired, but be petite enough that a flesh wound could take him out, while a giant guy could ignore the flesh wound, but collapse after a quarter mile run.

Wisdom- Common sense? Willpower? Serenity? Cleverness? How about someone gullible, very determined, always focused on the big picture, but forgets to tie his shoes all the time?

Intelligence- Math? Science? Is it just someone who has a good memory for reading things, or someone who just grasps concepts quickly?

Charisma- Is it someone attractive? Someone witty? Someone with great force of personality?


Honestly, the only one I can't really think of different interpretations for is Strength, and I'm sure someone else can come up with something.

I think the best way to deal with questions like this is, you decide. All game systems, no matter how detailed they are, eventually become an abstraction. So if you have an 18 or an 8 Charisma, you decide how it's flavored.


Someone extremely boring but unoffensive looking, and someone kinda entertaining but a bit ugly would both have 10 Charisma, I think.

[Ragitsu]

Wisdom- Common sense? Willpower? Serenity? Cleverness? How about someone gullible, very determined, always focused on the big picture, but forgets to tie his shoes all the time?

And, of course, the older you get, the better your senses get .

I think the best way to deal with questions like this is, you decide. All game systems, no matter how detailed they are, eventually become an abstraction.

Absolutely. It is, ultimately, a question of which abstraction best fits with what we want, and how detailed the abstractions is/abstractions are.

[Delwugor]

There is an analogous problem with d6. Basically for me the rules get too finicky and the whole just becomes to big to handle and enjoy easily.
Then I ran across Mini-Six which takes a few but the best parts of d6 and puts together a whole system with a great cinematic feel. I'm attempting to write a cinematic western game with it as the core rules.

I've looked at GURPS light before but it looked more like a preview game instead of a full-fledged light system. Maybe good for running a one shot to get a basic feel but that's it.

[Cybren]

The 4 attributes in GURPS are essentially canon. Ain't no one messing with that, ever. And I think that's for the best. With a system like GURPS, having too many various attributes will make it easier than it already is to minmax your basic stats. As it is now, there's legitimate concern when you see a player lowering a stat under 9.

Or the way most skills default to two or three other skills with varying modifiers.

i do think that this, and how to use skills in general, is one of the harder parts of GURPS to grasp. The various defaults, improving from defaults, Tech Level penalties, familiarity penalties, etc when you take what penalties, what skill does what, is all very cludgy, but a lot of it is going back to 1) genericness and 2) the way GURPS designs and prices skills.

[Tael]

I've looked at GURPS light before but it looked more like a preview game instead of a full-fledged light system. Maybe good for running a one shot to get a basic feel but that's it.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what it's supposed to be.

[Ragitsu]

Yeah, GURPS Lite isn't a complete "rules light" system. It's a preview.

[Ragitsu]

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=76355

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=76387

[Half-Orc Rage]

I never actually played Gurps. I think I like my games to be more heroic, and the combat system seemed clunky. I like certain things about it, I like that I can make myself or my friends, something I can't really do in D&D. The bell curve roll is nice, but it definitely limits the power range. I think it's a matter of preference.

[Ragitsu]

the combat system seemed clunky.

How so?

The bell curve roll is nice, but it definitely limits the power range.

How so?

[TalonDemonKing]

To my knowledge, they actually tried to print everything in one book.

The binding didn't hold :\

As far as GURPS being fluffy; I actually like it. It all meshes well with one another, and considering nearly every rule is 'Optional' (Hit locations, tactical combat, bullet proof nudity...) you can just pick and choose what you want to use. So if fluffy book X or Y doesn't suit you, don't use it.

[avr]

For example, the way a simple thing like charisma could have been dealt with as a simple attribute, but instead uses complex set of advantages and disadvantages.

Is it really that simple in D&D 3+ though? Besides the charisma attribute, to define a character's social abilities you need at least their ranks in Bluff and Diplomacy, and arguably those in a bunch of related skills also. Feats can have an effect here too. Levels in various prestige classes.

GURPS could be easier to get into. I can see the potential, but don't really want to spend the effort to learn how to make a game out of it for my friends. That's my beef with it.

[Anyr]

To my knowledge, they actually tried to print everything in one book.

The binding didn't hold :\

That's technically true, but rather misleading. The binding on the first printings was indeed faulty, but it had nothing to do with the size of the book. Later printings had the same amount of content and were fine.

If you're referring to the decision to split the basic set into two books, that was mostly based on price; IIRC, it was thought that only GMs would really need the second half, so forcing normal players to buy it along with the first wasn't a good strategy.

[a_humble_lich]

If you're referring to the decision to split the basic set into two books, that was mostly based on price; IIRC, it was thought that only GMs would really need the second half, so forcing normal players to buy it along with the first wasn't a good strategy.

It is not without precedent to split your core rules into different books. For example, you might want to have one which is a handbook for players and another one that is more of a guide to dungeon masters.

[Ragitsu]

HERO seems to get away with it, but i'm pretty happy that Steve Jackson Games decided to split up 500+ pages into two books.

[Kaldrin]

I never actually played Gurps.

Grain of salt taken.

I think I like my games to be more heroic, and the combat system seemed clunky.

It isn't. Learning any new system takes time. However, you can do perfectly heroic things in GURPS. I ran a high fantasy game where a single group fought an avatar of a god and his armies. Armies.

I like certain things about it, I like that I can make myself or my friends, something I can't really do in D&D. The bell curve roll is nice, but it definitely limits the power range. I think it's a matter of preference.

The bell curve is an entity that can be manipulated in GURPS. Sure, it's always there, but you can use it to manipulate success, failure and give you a feeling of anxiety when you roll.

For instance, with 30 skill you might think it's just a matter of auto-hitting all the time. Well, a weapon master at that level can hit four adjacent foes (-9 to skill), take a penalty to reduce their defenses all by 3 (-6 to skill) and target the throat (-5 to skill), leaving him with a realistic chance of failure with a final skill roll of 10 or less. And he still has time to defend himself if anyone lives. This is all in one second.

That's not cinematic? After you've been playing for a while you do all this in your head on the fly and it's not even a matter of looking anything up.

[Kaldrin]

HERO seems to get away with it, but i'm pretty happy that Steve Jackson Games decided to split up 500+ pages into two books.

Not any more. Their latest edition has many books. All hard covers and pricey. They were shrink-wrapped at our FLGS, so I couldn't even crack them open and take a look at what was in them. I hate it when places do that.

[Ragitsu]

Not any more. Their latest edition has many books. All hard covers and pricey. They were shrink-wrapped at our FLGS, so I couldn't even crack them open and take a look at what was in them. I hate it when places do that.

Hm? Each book isn't 500+ pages, but they still are college textbook size.

[Kaldrin]

Hm? Each book isn't 500+ pages, but they still are college textbook size.

Haven't looked at them for months, but it seemed the initial book was still pretty packed with pages and the other stuff was regular GURPS hardcover sized.

[Ragitsu]

For instance, with 30 skill you might think it's just a matter of auto-hitting all the time. Well, a weapon master at that level can hit four adjacent foes (-9 to skill), take a penalty to reduce their defenses all by 3 (-6 to skill) and target the throat (-5 to skill), leaving him with a realistic chance of failure with a final skill roll of 10 or less. And he still has time to defend himself if anyone lives. This is all in one second.

And we haven't even gotten to Techniques yet .