Is this worth LA: +3?

[Boci]

Are the following abilities worth LA: +3 (its a mesh of the unseelie fey and the shadow creature incase anyone wants to know the origin)

Abilities: -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma.

Speed: 50% more than base creature.

Vision (Ex):
— Darkvision out to 60 feet.
— Low-light vision.

D% TYPE OF VISION
1-70 Low-light
71-80 Standard; the creature can see as well as a human
81-90 Darkvision 60 ft.
91-95 The creature lacks eyes but has tremorsense 30 ft.
96-100 The creature lacks eyes but has blindsight 30 ft.

— Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

Shadow creatures also have one additional special ability for every 4 Hit Dice they possess (minimum of one additional ability) chosen from the following list:
— +2 luck bonus on all saving throws.
—Cause Fear (Sp): 1/day. Caster level 5th. The save DC is
Charisma-based.
—Damage reduction 5/magic.
—Evasion, as the rogue class feature.
—Fast healing 2.
—Mirror Image (Sp): 1/day. Caster level 5th.
—Plane Shift (Sp): 1/day, to or from the Plane of Shadow only.
Caster level 15th.

Ability to ignore falling damage as an Ex ability.

Winter Chill (Su): Living, nonfey creatures within 5 feet of her feel uneasy and take a morale penalty on saves equal to the unseelie fey's Charisma bonus (minimum 1).

Iron Vulnerability (Ex): The mere touch of iron (including steel) deals 1 point of damage to the unseelie fey. A hit with an iron or steel weapon deals an additional +1d6 points of damage. The fey's DR protects it from this damage. Roll the damage as normal and apply DR, unless the weapon can defeat the fey's DR.

DR: 5 / Cold Iron

Skills: +4 bonus on Intimidate checks, +10 bonus to jump checks, +6 bonus on Move Silently checks.

I was thinking this is probably 2.75, so may need a little bit more to make it worthwhile. Also not the game is gestalt, so the LA will be divided as 2 on one side, 1 on the other.

[ericgrau]

Shadow Blend + Winter's Chill + speed make this template redonkulous on a touch spell sorcerer. The rest are worth maybe LA 1 all put together. Let's see, it gives up to a -10 to saving throws and the foe never sees you coming... I'm afraid this might be a case of LA: no. If the LAs too low he'll one shot everything and no reasonable monster will be able to get around it. If LA is too high he'll finally get caught one day and get one shotted from his piddly HP. Fix winter's chill and maybe shadow blend then go from there.

[grimbold]

i agree that it is around 2.75 right now, i think you may want to try to get something added in to make it a true LA+3

[Boci]

Shadow Blend + Winter's Chill + speed make this template redonkulous on a touch spell sorcerer. The rest are worth maybe LA 1 all put together. Let's see, it gives up to a -10 to saving throws and the foe never sees you coming... I'm afraid this might be a case of LA: no. If the LAs too low he'll one shot everything and no reasonable monster will be able to get around it. If LA is too high he'll finally get caught one day and get one shotted from his piddly HP. Fix winter's chill and maybe shadow blend then go from there.

The build this is intended for is something like LA1 / Binder 7//LA 2 / Swordsage 4 / Paladin 2

[ericgrau]

Then the party caster is going to one shot things, or possibly one shot multiple things if the two of you can find a way to prevent you from being hurt by his area spells. A simple fix would be to give a flat penalty to saves instead. -2 if you want strong and -4 if you want very strong. I'd also adjust shadow blend so that foes can see a dark form where you are at, so that way you keep your 50% miss but they aren't denied dex and this won't be a rogue template. Unless there's something in swordsage that benefits from being unseen? I mean just because hill giants are bad casters doesn't make them LA 0 nor would I be happy to see a lot of hill giant wizards at any LA even purely by fluff. Adjust the template more towards your specialty. Then I think I'd agree on LA 2.75 or even LA 2.5.

[nyarlathotep]

I'm with the above poster in saying that Winter Chill is simply off balancing for the rest of the race as is Shadow Blend. I personally would recommend making them LA +0 and give them 3 or 4 racial hitdice. It makes them playable but doesn't let those two abilities overpower the campaign.

[Boci]

I'm with the above poster in saying that Winter Chill is simply off balancing for the rest of the race as is Shadow Blend. I personally would recommend making them LA +0 and give them 3 or 4 racial hitdice. It makes them playable but doesn't let those two abilities overpower the campaign.

I don't quite get how changing LA: +3 to 3-4 racial hitdie will change anything, save make this stronger.

[nyarlathotep]

It does make it stronger in the sense that it can survive combat at low levels. I would only be overpowering if it were LA +1 or 2 without hitdice, but it would be too costly to consider taking if it were LA +3. Giving it 0 LA but including racial hitdice allows it to essentially be proper class and circumvents the horrible design present in the level adjustment system.

[Boci]

It does make it stronger in the sense that it can survive combat at low levels.

Starting level is 7th.

I would only be overpowering if it were LA +1 or 2 without hitdice, but it would be too costly to consider taking if it were LA +3. Giving it 0 LA but including racial hitdice allows it to essentially be proper class and circumvents the horrible design present in the level adjustment system.

Okay, but how will that solve the problem of shadow blend and winter chill?

[Escheton]

It wont, it will even make it worse as the 1/4 lvls ability increase will be sooner. And the saves and bab and skills etc...

The misschance and winterchill alone make it +2
evasion, fast healing and all the rest make it +4

I also dont understand the % for vision when you already give lowlight and darkvision.

[nyarlathotep]

It wont, it will even make it worse as the 1/4 lvls ability increase will be sooner. And the saves and bab and skills etc...

The misschance and winterchill alone make it +2
evasion, fast healing and all the rest make it +4

I also dont understand the % for vision when you already give lowlight and darkvision.

That is the point. The level adjustment system is almost never worth it because it puts you behind in everything, if instead you give them dead levels that are filled by the race's abilities then you end up with a race that can be considered equal to a non-LA character rather than being strictly worse in all but the most extreme circumstances (saint, marrulurk, and half-minotaur).

For instance ambush drake is officially LA 0 but is a perfectly balanced pounce based fighter with it's racial hit dice.

[Boci]

So I should change winter's chill to a static -4 penalty, nerf shadowblend, such as retaining the 50% miss chance but not allowing him to automatically hide and swap the LA for racial hitdie?

[ericgrau]

Getting close to something workable I think.

Assuming medium BAB d8 racial HD and using your binder/paladin levels purely as an example... you basically lose 1 BAB, 3 HP, cha to saves, detect evil and whatever binder 8 grants. In exchange you might get 50% miss chance, -4 to enemy saves, evasion, ignore falling damage, DR 5/cold iron but +1d6 from iron weapons, +4 intimidate, +10 jump, +6 move silently. That seems like you're getting a whole lot more than you're losing.

Maybe if you put an LA on both sides and got 1 racial HD it might be ok, though still on the strong side IMO. I mean thanks to gestalt that supposed LA 2 is only a little worse than LA 1.

I might even say LA 3 no HD to be safe since you went with the full -4 to saves or that might be worth 2.75. Not sure.

[Benly]

The problem with LA is that pretty much nothing is "worth" +3 LA in the sense of "I am willing to play three levels behind to get these shinies". Three levels are worth too much. The best you'll end up with at +3 LA is something that's overpowered with LA buyoff and unplayable without it.

[Boci]

The problem with LA is that pretty much nothing is "worth" +3 LA in the sense of "I am willing to play three levels behind to get these shinies". Three levels are worth too much. The best you'll end up with at +3 LA is something that's overpowered with LA buyoff and unplayable without it.

Its gestalt, so more like 1.5 LA.

I might even say LA 3 no HD to be safe since you went with the full -4 to saves or that might be worth 2.75. Not sure.

Maybe return the shadow creature's immunity to cold.

[ericgrau]

Maybe return the shadow creature's immunity to cold.

Sure why not, assuming the template still needs beefing. These are all guestimates of course. Maybe someone less lazy can figure out the stats on 3 LA with template vs. class levels. 3 HD was a lot easier since I only had to compare class features to template special abilities.

[Boci]

Sure why not, assuming the template still needs beefing. These are all guestimates of course. Maybe someone less lazy can figure out the stats on 3 LA with template vs. class levels. 3 HD was a lot easier since I only had to compare class features to template special abilities.

Oops, messed up. Its actually resistence, not immunity.

[Beelzebub1111]

Shadow Blend should be Concealment rather than total Concealment. Winter Chill should be either nixed or altered to be just a -1 or -2 on all d20 rolls.

[PersonMan]

Winter Chill should be either nixed or altered to be just a -1 or -2 on all d20 rolls.

Maybe it scales with Hit Dice? Start at -1 or -2, -1/4 HD?

At level 20 that's -6 or -7. I don't play at that high level, but I'd say that that and the other abilities would be worth a few dead levels-maybe split it between RHD and LA?