Whats the best monster to use Simulacrum on?

[Sims]

Description:

Simulacrum Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting time: 12 hours
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One duplicate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No


Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

Material Component: The spell is cast over the rough snow or ice form, and some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like) must be placed inside the snow or ice. Additionally, the spell requires powdered ruby worth 100 gp per HD of the simulacrum to be created.

XP Cost: 100 XP per HD of the simulacrum to be created (minimum 1,000 XP).



I am currently level 21:
1/NInja
20/wizard

with that in mind, and the gate spell, what would be the best/strongest monster to simulacri?

[Soren Hero]

i love simulacrum, because it lets u have a powerful companion, that is completely and utterly under your control. that being said, the best way to utilize the spell is to copy a creature that has abilities not tied to its HD or its "class levels" because it only gets half. i always look for creatures with either innate spellcasting or a buttload of SLA's. My top two picks are a Planetar or Solar, because they both have Cleric casting and many useful SLA's. my advice is to not try breaking the game with simulacrum, because it is easy to abuse. you could simulacrum an efreeti to start an infinite wish loop, and have a DMG thrown at u by your DM. Another simulacrum tip would be to use wish instead, that way the casting time for simulacrum becomes one standard action instead of 12 hours. Additionally, using shapechange on your familiar to get an awesome creature, then using wish to simulacrum it gives two fold benefit. 1) your simulacrum has half your total HP as per familiar rules and 2)it can now share spells with you.

hope this helps

[Psyren]

Pick a deity, you have their eyelashes in your component pouch by RAW.

[Ytaker]

A solar. They have the ability wish 1/day at will, and a host of other powerful abilities. You should be able to gate in a solar and ask them for a body part, which you can use for the spell.

Edit. Yes, this ability is very open to abuse. If your dm dislikes overpowered characters at all, use the powers to benefit your companions and play down your strengths. It's easier to pretend to be weaker than you are than stronger.

[ericgrau]

Besides the DM nixing the solar because it's a solar, the creature is also supposed to have abilities appropriate to its level. So the DM might also take away its wish instead.

The best target is a target with a lot of power per HD. That usually means a higher level adventurer if you could actually find one, or a monster that gets a good deal on its HD such as an outsider (full BAB, 3 good saves, 8+int skill points)

[Soren Hero]

Besides the DM nixing the solar because it's a solar, the creature is also supposed to have abilities appropriate to its level. So the DM might also take away its wish instead.

The best target is a target with a lot of power per HD. That usually means a higher level adventurer if you could actually find one, or a monster that gets a good deal on its HD such as an outsider (full BAB, 3 good saves, 8+int skill points)

i disagree...abilities tied to HD are so weak when it comes to simulacrums because they explicitly only get half of what they are...as opposed to getting SLA's or spellcasting that is not a class level. For example, a Planetar gets 17th level cleric casting, but isn't a 17th level cleric, so by raw it gets to keep it via simulacrum albeit its saves and save DC's are weaker, that doesn't really matter...even with half of the Planetar's BAB, it can cast Divine power on itself at 17th level which gives it 4 attacks a round..and even though it only gets 7HD, it has dr/10, regeneration 10, three immunities, and SR 30...it is a veritable tank on wings...and most of it isn't tied to its HD.

spellcasting and SLA's>skill points + saves

[Ytaker]

If you do go the planar route, I'd recommend you use it purely as a combat weapon at first. Once your dm has accepted that lesser use, then go up to using wish.

[Bayar]

There's a monster that can cast Astral Projection. You should make a Simulacrum of it.

[tyckspoon]

spellcasting and SLA's>skill points + saves

While RAW true because those things are not explicitly attached to HD, Simulacrum's language does give DMs a lot of room to adjust the creature to whatever they think is appropriate- specifically, in

and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD

Is 17th level casting appropriate for a 7-HD Planetar Simulacrum? Are spell-like Permanency, Resurrection, and Wish appropriate for an 11-HD Solar Simulacrum? Probably not, and they're special abilities, so the DM is well within the bounds of the spell to say your Simulacrum does not get them, or at least does not get them at the level of the printed creature.

[Soren Hero]

or a titan...invisibility, dispel magic, chain lighting and firestorm at will...you now have artillery

[Soren Hero]

While RAW true because those things are not explicitly attached to HD, Simulacrum's language does give DMs a lot of room to adjust the creature to whatever they think is appropriate- specifically, in


Is 17th level casting appropriate for a 7-HD Planetar Simulacrum? Are spell-like Permanency, Resurrection, and Wish appropriate for an 11-HD Solar Simulacrum? Probably not, and they're special abilities, so the DM is well within the bounds of the spell to say your Simulacrum does not get them, or at least does not get them at the level of the printed creature.

by RAI, i totally agree with you...i see the intended use of the spell as a DM plot device, like invasion of the body snatchers or something where people in power are slowly being replaced by simulacrums and controlled by a BBEG

while it is arguably that creatures don't get the spellcasting or SLA's for their diminished HD, they aren't something you get from HD or from class levels, because getting advanced HD doesn't give a solar or planetar any increased abilities other than those that come from HD (which doesn't include its spellcasting or SLA's)...i guess to solve the problem, you just have to gate in an advanced version of what you want (double the MM version's HD) to get the simulacrum of the monster you want

[Darrin]

with that in mind, and the gate spell, what would be the best/strongest monster to simulacri?

Black Ethergaunt. 17th level wizard spellcasting independent of HD.

[ericgrau]

i disagree...abilities tied to HD are so weak when it comes to simulacrums because they explicitly only get half of what they are...as opposed to getting SLA's or spellcasting that is not a class level. For example, a Planetar gets 17th level cleric casting, but isn't a 17th level cleric, so by raw it gets to keep it via simulacrum albeit its saves and save DC's are weaker, that doesn't really matter...even with half of the Planetar's BAB, it can cast Divine power on itself at 17th level which gives it 4 attacks a round..and even though it only gets 7HD, it has dr/10, regeneration 10, three immunities, and SR 30...it is a veritable tank on wings...and most of it isn't tied to its HD.

spellcasting and SLA's>skill points + saves

"and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD". So what's appropriate for an 11 HD creature? Is wish still appropriate? What this is is ambiguous so the powergamer says "Neat, so I keep everything right? He's an 11 HD solar so he still gets wish" and the DM says, "Uh no. Wish is not an appropriate special ability for an 11 HD monster." It's called interpreting in your favor not RAW, or "If the rules don't say I can't do it then I can" type "RAW". The fact is RAW is unspecified on the matter.

This of course is all in addition to the fact that the DM would say no regardless of the rule. Hence why I say pick something with lots of power for its HD. An PC/NPC if he can find one or else certain types of HD efficient monsters like outsiders. Not animals or magical beasts. I'm not bothering with how to theoretically break the game in a way that will never be allowed since the OP mentioned he is playing in an actual game.

You might also want to check construct, elemental and undead for options since, like outsiders, they are disallowed from polymorph for a reason.

[Jack_Simth]

"and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD". So what's appropriate for an 11 HD creature? Is wish still appropriate? What this is is ambiguous so the powergamer says "Neat, so I keep everything right? He's an 11 HD solar so he still gets wish" and the DM says, "Uh no. Wish is not an appropriate special ability for an 11 HD monster." It's called interpreting in your favor not RAW, or "If the rules don't say I can't do it then I can" type "RAW". The fact is RAW is unspecified on the matter.

Agreed re: Simulacrum's Effects on Solars, Planetars, Efreeti, and similar.

As for what to actually copy? Yourself.

Seriously.

You spend 1,000 xp and 10,000 gp to get yourself a thrall of a Wizard-9 or 10. That's utility spells, direct damage spells, Teleport, and so on. Plus, if your DM does Epic spellcasting, it's also someone to donate 5th level spell slots.

Edit: Oh yes, and pick up that rod that lets you skip 2,000 xp of the cost from the casting, post-haste, as well as Ignore Material Components.

[mootoall]

As for what to actually copy? Yourself.

Seriously.

You spend 1,000 xp and 10,000 gp to get yourself a thrall of a Wizard-9 or 10. That's utility spells, direct damage spells, Teleport, and so on. Plus, if your DM does Epic spellcasting, it's also someone to donate 5th level spell slots.

Edit: Oh yes, and pick up that rod that lets you skip 2,000 xp of the cost from the casting, post-haste, as well as Ignore Material Components.

Y'know, I was reading through this thread and I was just waiting to say this. Pity you got here first.

Seriously though, I'd go with either you, since you could then share your spellbook with it, have it become essentially a "scroll of every spell I know," and then memorize your most powerful spells without concern for those day-to-day utility spells, OR I'd go find a high level Crusader in your world and have him be your bodyguard. Oooooh, go find a high level Crusader with and LA race! Perhaps take Epic Leadership, get a ... I dunno ... Black Ethergaunt Crusader, and Simulacrum him! It'd work best if your Cha isn't dumped, but it should be fun anyway.

[Jack_Simth]

Y'know, I was reading through this thread and I was just waiting to say this. Pity you got here first.

Oh yes, and there's an extra reason for a Simulacrum of yourself: Distraction factor. You can assign him to various meetings you'd prefer not to attend, make it so people have trouble figuring out which you is really you for targetted effects, make people have to guess at which town/city/country/plane you're in, and so on.

[mootoall]

Oh yes, and there's an extra reason for a Simulacrum of yourself: Distraction factor. You can assign him to various meetings you'd prefer not to attend, make it so people have trouble figuring out which you is really you for targetted effects, make people have to guess at which town/city/country/plane you're in, and so on.

Not to mention the amazing chance for flavor you get from having a perfect copy of yourself. Perhaps the HD regression represents it being a younger, more inexperienced version of you, and you have to teach it? Maybe that scar you got fighting the dragon doesn't appear on your younger self, leading to ensuing hilarity? Perhaps you fancy yourself a god, and this is your way of creating an avatar? Fun stuff!

[J.Gellert]

Your questgiver!

Seriously, every other party is hired by a powerful old guy, usually a mage. You are level 21, so the powerful old guy that's hired you is at least what... 29? 30?

So ask him for the component, it's the least he can do. And if he declines, well at least you know he's really evil before the DM throws the TWIST! on you.

What was that? Not every game is that ...cliche? I can't hear you!

[Psychonix]

Use wish, ask for a piece of asmodeus' hair, or something similar. Note: Asking for "a piece of asmodeus" is just asking for trouble
Use simulcrum.
Duck as DM throws things at you.
Gain a totally loyal servant, with 17HD+170 and the following abilities.

Chill Gaze (Su): This gaze attack (Will DC 37 negates) has
a range of 30 feet and acts as a slow spell (caster level 20th) that
also imposes a –5 penalty on all attack and damage rolls, saving
throws, ability checks, and skill checks for 24 hours.

Fear and Weakness Gaze (Su): This gaze attack (Will DC
37 negates) has a range of 60 feet and acts as a fear spell
(caster level 20th) that also deals 1d4 points of Strength
damage to creatures that fail their save. Asmodeus can use
this or his chill gaze in a given round (but not both).

Demand Submission (Su): Once per round as a standard
action, Asmodeus can force any single creature who can hear
and understand his voice to attempt a Will saving throw (DC
37). If the creature fails, it submits to the ruler of hell for
10d10 days, doing whatever Asmodeus asks as if every request
of his was a suggestion against which the target cannot resist
with a saving throw. Once a creature succeeds at a saving
throw against this ability, it is forever immune to the effect.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—animate dead, blasphemy,
charm monster, create greater undead, desecrate, detect magic,
devil’s ego, discern location, dominate monster, fiendish quickening,
geas/quest, greater dispelling, hellfire, hellfire storm, magic circle
against good, major image, mass charm, project image, restoration,
resurrection, suggestion, teleport without error, true seeing (as a
cleric), unholy aura, unholy blight, unhallow, wall of ice, wall of
ice, wretched blight; 1/day—meteor swarm, power word (any),
symbol (any), true resurrection, wish. Caster level 20th; save DC
20 + spell level.

Spells: Asmodeus can cast spells as a 20th-level cleric
with the Diabolic and Evil domains. He gains one extra spell
slot at each spell level from 1 to 9 for domain spells, and he
can use the granted powers of his domains as if he were actu-
ally a cleric.

Baatezu Traits: Asmodeus can communicate telepathi-
cally with any creature within 100 feet that has a language.
In addition, he can see perfectly in darkness of any kind,
even that created by a deeper darkness spell. Asmodeus is
immune to fire and poison, and he has acid resistance 20 and
cold resistance 20.

Outsider Traits: Asmodeus cannot be raised or resurrected.

Regeneration (Ex): Asmodeus takes normal damage
from holy and blessed weapons of at least +4 enhancement.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): At will, Asmodeus can automati-
cally summon 1 pit fiend or 2 of any other type of devil.

[Psychonix]

On a slightly more serious note, it would be useful to know what the other members of your party are.

[Keinnicht]

Find a Hecatonheires fingernail.

[Tvtyrant]

Once your epic have your Simulacrum cast Simulacrum on down the line until you have enough to cast epic spells without Solars!

[Jack_Simth]

Once your epic have your Simulacrum cast Simulacrum on down the line until you have enough to cast epic spells without Solars!

You need to be careful when having your Simulacrum cast Simulacrum.

See, it's the caster who has absolute control of the simulacrum. What happens, exactly, to the tier-2 simulacra when the tier-1 simulacrum is slain?

Now, if you have your simulacrum craft a scroll of simulacrum, which you then use, that can work out.

[Tvtyrant]

It becomes independent? But it is still fundamentally you; its going to be whatever your alignment is and will probably take up adventuring somewhere.

[ericgrau]

A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.

If you interpret that to mean it can't gain xp then it can't make another simulacrum. You probably don't want it to fight in encounters of EL twice its level anyway, and even against lower level things its HP is expensive to restore. I don't think you're allowed to burn enough xp to lower your level either.

But otherwise yeah yourself is a good target. Searching the floor for a hair from the quest-giver (who needs to ask him for one?) is also a great idea. And even more hilarious when he finds out about it.

[Irbis]

No one mentioned Sarrukh yet? I'm disappointed

[Tvtyrant]

If you interpret that to mean it can't gain xp then it can't make another simulacrum. You probably don't want it to fight in encounters of EL twice its level anyway, and even against lower level things its HP is expensive to restore. I don't think you're allowed to burn enough xp to lower your level either.

But otherwise yeah yourself is a good target. Searching the floor for a hair from the quest-giver (who needs to ask him for one?) is also a great idea. And even more hilarious when he finds out about it.

It doesn't say it can't lose XP, so I don't see where the issue is. And it doesn't say you can't drop a level, where is that from?

[Soren Hero]

If you interpret that to mean it can't gain xp then it can't make another simulacrum. You probably don't want it to fight in encounters of EL twice its level anyway, and even against lower level things its HP is expensive to restore. I don't think you're allowed to burn enough xp to lower your level either.

well the spell description states that it cannot gain levels, which is pretty vague, but it doesn't necessarily need xp to craft. there are a few ways to craft without xp, tho they aren't necessarily easy. ambrosia is one way, liquid pain is another that comes to mind, but they aren't efficient. unless u have factories of it (or u start abusing wish, but if you are already abusing wish, why not wish for more simulacrums?)

[ericgrau]

It doesn't say it can't lose XP, so I don't see where the issue is. And it doesn't say you can't drop a level, where is that from?

These kind of arguments have a bit of weasel in them. It doesn't say you can either. It's because it can't gain more power, and xp is a sort of power. But that part is open to interpretation. I believe somewhere in the experience rules it says you can't go down a level from xp costs. You may even choose to not go up a level even though you have enough xp for one so that you may save more xp for xp costs.

[Jack_Simth]

And it doesn't say you can't drop a level, where is that from?

Yes It Does:

XP Cost (XP)

Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.

(Emphasis added)