Question...Wizards and PrCs...

[Maho-Tsukai]

I just want to make sure that I am correct on this issue but my group, when playing D&D houserules that bonus spells a wizard gets from leveling up count as "spells known" for PrCs which increase spellcasting. We houserule this because it's just that, a houserule. Our group sees the normal rules as saying PrC advancing these spells and forcing wizards to buy/find scrolls of spells they want...hence why we houserule it to go the other way. However, I want to make sure I am correct on the RAW as I know some people who believe that the bonus spells from level up ARE advanced by CL advancing PrCs by RAW so I want to know the true rules so I can correct them or correct myself.

So, is there anybody who can clear this up for me?

[tyckspoon]

It's.. vague. The closest to RAW seems to be that no, Wizards do not get extra spells when advancing in PrCs, because they don't actually have a Spells Known entry to get advanced- the extra spells are instead a part of their Spellbook feature. Which is virtually never referenced in a PrC.

By intent, anything which advances Spells Known should give the Wizards those free spells as well; it's one of those things where the relevant designers likely couldn't imagine *not* getting spells, so they just didn't mention it. And then the non-mention got encoded in the standard boilerplate, and future writers just copy-paste that into the 'Spellcasting' sections of their classes.

[mucat]

First, let me make sure I understand the question: are you simply asking if a wizard continues to learn two "free" spells per level when advancing a prestige class rather than the base wizard class?

If I have the question right: Most people, myself included, seem to answer yes. These free spells are part of a wizard's normal spell advancement. When a PRC grants a spellcasting advance "as if she had gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before", this includes those two free spells.

Not everyone agrees (EDIT: Tyckspoon states the case for the other point of view well in the post above this), and I have never heard of an official WotC ruling on this.

One thing to consider before deciding which way to rule in your campaigns: a player who takes the "Collegiate Wizard" feat, the main benefit of which is to offer four free spells instead of two, might feel disgruntled at being told that feat becomes useless once he/she takes a prestige class.

[HunterOfJello]

In the 3rd Edition FAQ that can be found here it states that:

I can’t find any information about how many spells prestige
class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that
those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class
(such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically
add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels.
They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard
/loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a
loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster
would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your
spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting.

However, this was information on 3rd edition and not 3.5 edition.

Also, I do remember seeing a prestige class in one of the books that stated that wizards do not gain new spells while progressing in that Prestige Class, although they did continue their spellcasting progression. I don't remember whether that was an exception to the rule, a misunderstanding or even a 3.5 edition book at all, so that instance shouldn't be given too much credence.

[FMArthur]

If they don't, then even some designers have it wrong, because Master Specialist's text for Expanded Spellbook says "it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level" while still having perfectly ordinary prestige class text for spellcasting advancement.

Really it's just one of the few iffy things you can say "no" to in order to feel like you're nerfing the overpowered Wizard class while not actually doing much in reality. If this had happened to a weaker class it would be as much of a dilemma as Monk unarmed strike proficiency.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

However, this was information on 3rd edition and not 3.5 edition.

Also, I do remember seeing a prestige class in one of the books that stated that wizards do not gain new spells while progressing in that Prestige Class, although they did continue their spellcasting progression. I don't remember whether that was an exception to the rule, a misunderstanding or even a 3.5 edition book at all, so that instance shouldn't be given too much credence.

As much as the FAQ is not RAW, anything stated in 3.0 not explicitly updated/changed for 3.5 is legitimate. That being said, the language on things like Master Specialist and their extra spells gained as class features do put to the idea that, yes, by RAW, wizards and other classes with spellbooks/prayerbooks do in fact gain more spells when they take levels in a prestige class.