4e enemy level

[The Conductor]

I'm DMing a game of 4e, and I was wondering what level, say, a Tiefling Warlock should be to easily defeat a party of two 1st level PCs, be a significant challenge at 3rd, and reasonably easy at 5th.

[Sipex]

A tiefling warlock which follows player character rules for creation or monster rules?

Monster? I'd say level 5, make it an elite.

Player Character? Hrm, depends if you're giving it magic items or not.

[Urpriest]

Doesn't work that way. PCs and Monsters are built in entirely different ways in 4e. You can't use something with Warlock PC stats as an NPC, and especially not as an enemy. You'll find rules for various types of NPCs in the DMG. Generally it's best to modify an existing monster, in which case the XP value for the monster should tell you when it's an appropriate fight.

Also, except for a few cases one monster alone does not make a good fight. There are too many ways to shut it down. You should at least give the Tiefling some minions for any of these fights, and probably some standards or elites as well.

[Sipex]

Urpriest is right, unless you have a specific reason why you need a Warlock which fits that criteria and can't have allies your best bet is to give it a team.

[Mando Knight]

I'm DMing a game of 4e, and I was wondering what level, say, a Tiefling Warlock should be to easily defeat a party of two 1st level PCs, be a significant challenge at 3rd, and reasonably easy at 5th.

You'd make it a monster, probably a level 3 or 4 Elite. However, the power difference doesn't scale quite as rapidly as you seem to want... the level 1s would be able to harm the Warlock, and the level 5s would take quite a bit of damage from it.

Also, the party makeup matters, especially if you're so understaffed (a party of two is ridiculously small... I recommend 3 at the least, and preferably 4-6). Is it a Striker/Leader pair? Leader/Defender pair? Striker Rush pair? Defender/Striker pair? Something else?

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm DMing a game of 4e, and I was wondering what level, say, a Tiefling Warlock should be to easily defeat a party of two 1st level PCs, be a significant challenge at 3rd, and reasonably easy at 5th.

Solos are tough to build correctly.

If you're new, start by using the Encounter Building Rules in the DMG. Follow the XP Budget System and start off with =LV Encounters. If you only have 2 PCs you'll want to start off very easy - just Minions with a few Brutes at LV 1. Depending on how they handle that, you can scale up the Encounters from there.

Out of curiousity, what are your 2 PCs? Defender & Leader or Defender & Striker are the ideal combination for such a small party, FWIW.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm DMing a game of 4e, and I was wondering what level, say, a Tiefling Warlock should be to easily defeat a party of two 1st level PCs, be a significant challenge at 3rd, and reasonably easy at 5th.

Level six. Five if your party is bad at strategy, seven if they're good at optimizing.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm DMing a game of 4e, and I was wondering what level, say, a Tiefling Warlock should be to easily defeat a party of two 1st level PCs, be a significant challenge at 3rd, and reasonably easy at 5th.

You'd make it a monster, probably a level 3 or 4 Elite. However, the power difference doesn't scale quite as rapidly as you seem to want... the level 1s would be able to harm the Warlock, and the level 5s would take quite a bit of damage from it.

Also, the party makeup matters, especially if you're so understaffed (a party of two is ridiculously small... I recommend 3 at the least, and preferably 4-6). Is it a Striker/Leader pair? Leader/Defender pair? Striker Rush pair? Defender/Striker pair? Something else?

Mando Knight is correct. Based on the various DMGs 4th edition power scaling is claimed to be about half the rate of third edition.

In third edition level X was about half as powerful as level X+2.
In fourth edition level X is about half as powerful as level X+4.

In third edition level 1 was extra-weak because you nearly doubled your HP at level 2.
In fourth edition level 1 is just another level, you get something like 22 HP, and level 2 you get another 5 or so HP. So there's no big HP gap making level 1 extra vulnerable.

And even in third edition the scalling wasn't as fast as you want. An overwhelming third edition encounter (assuming no optimization) was CR=APL+8 or so (and even then it might not be easy for the monster), and you needed to get to CR=APL-2 or so before it was an obvious curb-stomp.

So basically, the power curve is much slower than what's needed for level 1 to level 5 to change a curb-stomping of the PCs to a curb-stomping BY the PCs.

This means that anything that can defeat the party "easily" at level 1 will still be a serious challenge at level 5, and won't be down to a standard patrol till about level 9.

I'm going to assume that the desired part of the design easily defeat a party of two 1st level PCs and that you want a fairly minimal level for that.

For 2 PCs a single creature should be an elite for a ballanced patrol encounter. So if our creature is going to be able to "easily" defeat the PCs it should be a level 9 elite!

Note that you DON'T build this as a level 9 PC. As others have said, that's simply a bad idea.

Level 9 artillery should have it's key ability at about 20 and it's good abilities at 17, Con should be about 13.

HP are 80 + 2x con score, so about 106 HP. All defenses are about 21.
(This means even level 1 PCs can hit him fairly often. But they won't do enough damage to take him down at level 1.)

He has 1 action point, and a +2 to saves.

It should have ranged attacks that hits a Non AC defense at +13 or so for an average of 16 or so damage (or about 12 damage and a moderately inconvienent condition or continuing damage). Being elite it should be able to attack twice in a round, since you have two PCs I'd give it a "twin" eldrich blast where it targets both of them as a standard action.

It should have 1 or 2 encounter powers, which are either utilities, minor actions, or do about 75% more damage. It needs a melee or close attack, but for a warlocky character this can and should suck compared to its ranged ability.

This guy really wants to keep the range open. By level 9 your PCs will lock him down and smash him like a bug, a single patrol artillery that can't fly or otherwise avoid engagement is hopeless against PCs, but at level 1 he'll laugh at their futile efforts to hurt him while blowing them away.

[The Conductor]

Thanks for the help. I'm not nearly as familiar with 4e as 3.5

[MeeposFire]

Also in 4e you do not have to worry about using the actual class anyway.

Just make a standard monster and then name its powers after warlock spells and give the monster a bonus to defense when it moves. Would make for an excellent skirmisher monster.

[Grogmir]

The Specifics have been covered quite well.

I would actually restat him, first at level 3. Basically keeping +2 level of the party. As I think level 1 PC would struggle to hit a level 5 anything (let alone a Solo or elite).

As others have said - monster building is much different (and easier imo) although after reading the Monster Builder book and seeing the new design instructions with Encounters.

Basically - you have less powerful encounter powers - but many more 'Effect' powers. So unique flavour monsters keep there flavour even if they miss.

However I still advoid Single monster encounters like the plague. If add in minions or smallfry monsters - or have the enviroment be an interesting challenge to (Or both of course!)

happy Rollin'

[Doug Lampert]

The Specifics have been covered quite well.

I would actually restat him, first at level 3. Basically keeping +2 level of the party. As I think level 1 PC would struggle to hit a level 5 anything (let alone a Solo or elite).

Huh? The DMG recommends keeping the monsters within no more than +7 levels of the party, and MM II and onward the elites and solos don't have noticably higher defenses other than HP and saves.

A level 1 rogue with 18 dex (+4) and a dagger (+4) and combat advantage (+2) is barely even trying for accuracy, and he can hit a typical level 5 artillery on a roll of 7+, that's not struggling!

Give him expertise and 20 dex and we hit on a 5+ with combat advantage. That's nearly can't miss teritory, not can't hit.

A Cleric with only 16 strength and a mace still hits at +5, that's still able to hit our level 5 monster on a roll of 12+, almost half the time.

Make the monster a soldier rather than artillery and the cleric will be in trouble, at least till he starts targetting NAC defenses which he should have at least one at-will for (the rogue is still fine if he can get a flank).

But Avengers, Rangers, whatever, any striker should be able to fairly consistently hit a level +4 monster.

DougL

[Grogmir]

You're right. Level 5 AC is about 20, so well within the realms of the PCs. Need to reread the monster building guidelines again it seems

[Doug Lampert]

You're right. Level 5 AC is about 20, so well within the realms of the PCs. Need to reread the monster building guidelines again it seems

The updates makes them a lot simpler. Check the compiled updates for
Monster Statistics by Role
and
Damage by Level
(The tables are both on page 40 of the compiled updates.)

Everything's normal attack averages damage of about level+8.
Down 25% for powers with significant other benefits or multiple targets.
Up 25% for brutes.
Up 75% for encounter powers.

All attacks vs. AC are roughly Level+5 to hit, all attacks vs. NAC are roughly level+3 to hit.
Exception: Ranged powers of artillery monsters are +1 or +2 extra to hit.

Everything's NAC average Level+12.

Brutes and Artillery average AC of level+12.
Soldiers average AC of level+16.
Everything else averages AC of level+14.

PCs should average at least Level+5 to hit with weapon attacks and Level+3 to hit with implement attacks. A PC that emphasises hit chance should be several points higher than that.

DougL