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Thread: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
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2011-01-18, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
So I'm re-entering a high level (15) game with a merciless DM, that I've been out of for a few years with a new character. Since it has been some time since I last played I'm a bit rusty with character creation. So I decided to ask for some recommendations.
The party is pretty well of for most things. We have plenty of Melee damage and Buffing, what they really lack is a good debuffer, with a smattering of ranged damage.
Naturally I'd go for a Wizard to do this, but the campaign setting makes accessing new spell by anything other than level-up troublesome at best. Not to mention makes spells like Teleport and dimension door next to useless.
This makes the next best option, as far as I can see, a Sorcerer, especially since I can take a pretty specialised roll in battle.
What I currently have is human Socerer, with...
Feats:
Empower Spell
Reach Spell
Split Ray
& Chain Spell (letting me hit more enemies with stronger debuffs, safely)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration (we often get thrown up against things with CR well above our level, and some things get bonus SR.)
... with one feat to spare.
Spells:
1: Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray Of Clumsiness, True Strike... one more
2: Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity, Web, Phantasmal Assailants... one more
3: Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed, Fly & Haste (these are the only two buffs the cleric doesn't have)
4: Enervation, Confusion, Greater Invisibility, Orb of Sound (less damage, but less resistance)
5: Feeblemind, Cloudkill, Greater Fireburst, Prismatic Ray
6:Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Greater Dispel Magic
7:Stun Ray, Finger of Death.
I'm trying to very much focus on softening our enemies, and adding a little ranged damage in as well.
Thanks for the help.Heroes \hee'-rhos\: what a guy in a boat does.
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2011-01-18, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
what books are you allowed to use?
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2011-01-18, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
Yeah, books allowed would help a lot, here. Though you really only need one: Spell Compendium. Said book will get you True Casting, to get +10 on your next CL check to overcome spell resistance (gets you 2 feats back), as well as a bunch of debuffing ray spells, most of which are in the levels 1-4 range and are very potent.
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2011-01-18, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
Also since you are using reach spell anyways you might want to add a few of the touch debuffers like touch of idiocy or maybe even have fun with some of the polymorph spells. I have always loved the baleful polymorph spell because what is a better debuff than reducing your foe to a bunny? with some creative applications illusion spells can do amazing things as well...at least until everybody has true sight
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2011-01-18, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
I don't see why you'd need Dispel and Greater Dispel. At your level, regular Dispel is pretty ineffectual, and will soon be worthless.
Also, you could replace both spell penetration feats with Assay Spell Resistance from Spell Compendium. It's a 4th level spell, so probably drop Confusion, and it's a swift action that gives you +10 to beat SR on one creature for 1round/level.
With those feats you could get something like Spell Focus to boost your DCs, or go for more metamagic like Heighten and Quicken. Obviously you want one of the alternate class features or feats that lets you quicken your spells as a sorcerer.
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2011-01-18, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
Yeah, sorry about not including the books. hat's a rookie mistake there...
PHB II, The Completes & Spell Compendium I can guarantee, after that it will be by unlikely permission.
Feats
Empower Spell
Reach Spell
Split Ray
Chain Spell
Try as I might i can't find anything non-homebrew about letting a sorcerer quicken spells. But I could be looking in the wrong places.
Spells
1: Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray Of Clumsiness, True Strike, Spirit Worm
2: Glitterdust, Touch of Idiocy, Web, Phantasmal Assailants, Sting Ray
3:Ray of Dizziness, Phantom Steed, Fly & Haste
4: Enervation, Assay Spell Resistance, Greater Invisibility, Orb of Sound (less damage, but less resistance)
5: Feeblemind, Cloudkill, Greater Fireburst, Prismatic Ray
6:Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Greater Dispel Magic
7:Stun Ray, Finger of Death.Heroes \hee'-rhos\: what a guy in a boat does.
"Not the Earth!? That's where I keep all my stuff!" - the Tick.
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2011-01-18, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-01-18, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
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2011-01-18, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
Where's the Stinking Cloud? Fort save or be worthless, in area effect.
Also, Slow should be in there...
So, for 3rd level spells: Stinking Cloud, Slow, Haste, and Sleet Storm (Grease's bigger, more obnoxious, brother).Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2011-01-18 at 07:57 PM.
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2011-01-18, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-01-19, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
First of all, you should consider a prestige class. The ideal one would be incantatrix (PGtF) but that is probably not allowed. You can go for Fatespinner then, the small luck manipulation will go decently with your debuffing idea. The other option would be Archmage, this is hard to enter but pretty good for free reach depending on your spell choices and later mastery of shaping, spell power and mastery of elements are also good.
For your feats, as mentioned you want to get the ability to cast quicken spells. You are already high level so you can pick Rapid Metamagic(CM) that draz74 mentioned. Quicken spell is very nice especially for a debuffer, there is a lot of solid low level spells that you can quicken. Another important feat to pick is Residual Magic (also CM). This would leave you with four feat slots. I would probably go with additional metamagic feats but remember that you can also buy metamagic rods. If you go archmage you will only have one feat left, or you could drop rapid metamagic and take the PHBII variant.
Now about the spell list. Since you are a dedicated debuffer, you will know a bunch of such spells. This means that some spells that are usually good won't be that good for you as you will likely have a better, more specialized version. The best way to think about spell choices is to imagine how and when would you use them in terms of combat rounds. Another thing to keep in mind is that save or dies are available at your level, this means that you want to pick spells that are no save, or have an effect even on a failed save. Otherwise, why not just use a save or die?
From your list I would first drop:
lvl 1: Spirit Worm. This spell is pretty bad, you will probably never use it.
lvl 2: Touch of idiocy, phantasmal assailants and sting ray all or weak spells. They will be redundant and usually not worth casting.
lvl 3: Fly and Phantom steed serve a somewhat same purpose. You can still keep them both, but you could also drop fly and get a (probably free) spell known.
lvl4: Orb of sound. You probably won't need it. It is a good idea to pick at least one blasty spell, but that spell should be an area spell, preferably with an additional effect attached. If you want an orb spell, orb of fire stuns on a failed save.
lvl5: Feeblemind is very circumstantial and even then not that great, simply cast a fort or ref based spell. Greater fireburst does deal more damage but has severe targeting problems, better skip it. Prismatic ray is simply too random and not strong enough.
lvl6: This is decent but you may wish to skip disintegrate as it's mostly useful against undead. It's still ok if you keep it.
lvl7: Stun ray is ok, but you may consider some other choices. Finger of Death is definitely stylish but it can be easily skipped.
Some spell that I would suggest (all from SpC unless specified):
lvl2: Seeking Ray(PHBII) - An alternative for true strike that only needs to be cast once. +4 is not + 20 but it may just be enough.
Ray of stupidity - Not that great out of the box, but if you apply split ray and empower it becomes cheesy, use at your own risk.
lvl3 Great Thunderclap - This may be handy because it forces three saves, two of those can force a lost turn. This extra chance may be good for those situations where you don't want to risk successful saves.
Halt - This spell has an immediate action casting which is a primary reason for taking it. It also combines well with extend spell.
Blacklight - Effectively a blind spell for everyone except you, no save. Can be good depending on situation.
Ray of Exhaustion - With split ray this is automatic exhaustion (assuming that both rays hit), pretty good.
lvl4 Crushing Grip(PHBII) - This spell is amazing, it gives a no save penalties and then it also forces a save against paralysis (this save will also be at -2 because of the first effect). A great spell to chain and extend.
Celerity (PHBII) - this is a good spell to have, but it isn't necessary. May save your life.
Call of stone (PHBII), defenestrating sphere, burning blood - all of those do something every round after you cast them, and a save does not end the spell, it just negates the effect for one round. It's like getting free spells every round.
Dispelling screen - this spell can be very useful, it can block all other spells and also dispel buffs.
lvl5 telekinesis - you can grapple with it, against certain enemies this will be very handy, it is also versatile.
Spiritwall - a wall that debuffs and also blocks things in case it's needed. It's a battlefield control combined with a debuff.
Channelled Lifetheft (CM) - If you don't have ray of exhaustion this is good, maybe even better.
Night’s Caress - take it if you go archmage, it does damage even on a failed save.
lvl6 howling chain - a battlefield control that debuffs your enemies on every round after you cast it. One of the better spells.
Fleshshiver - This is a really strong single target debuff.
lvl7 A bunch of options on this level. Take what you want depending on your previous picks.
Glass strike - is like a better finger of death. It should be able to target undead and constructs too.
Reverse gravity - no save, can be instant win. Nice.
Choking cobwebs (CM) - If you trap someone within two of these, they die. Combines really great with sculpt spell, which you would be able to use once you get lvl 16.
Radiant assault - Area untyped damage that dazes enemies for 1d6 on a failed save. If you want to deal damage, take this.
Bigby’s Grasping Hand - similar to telekinesis but more versatile in combat. Can be pretty good in a lot of situations.
Waves of Exhaustion - Area no save exhaustion, solid debuff.
Avasculate - Halve the enemy hp with no save, if they fail a save stun them for one round. Very good, but evil.Last edited by kme; 2011-01-19 at 04:28 PM.
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2011-01-19, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
Why not go for an Eidetic Spellcaster Wizard?
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2011-01-19, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
Drop Finger of Death (fort save? Bleh...[Death] descripter? double blech!) and get Arcane Spellsurge. This is the best 7th level Sorcerer spell ever printed. Ever. EVAR!
Seriously, if you are gonna be playing around with MM, its great. Each round, you cast 1 non-metamagiced spell (highest level available) as a swift action, then cast a metamagic'd spell the same round as your standard action. Basically, 2 spells per round every round after the 1st, so long as one has metamagic and one doesn't.
Another feat to consider is Residual Metamagic. Use it with the above combo. Now, both spells you cast each round will have metamagic, as long as you follow the pattern.
Example combat:
Round 1: Cast Arcane Spellsurge (standard) + Stun Ray (swift)
Round 2: Cast Split Ray of Dizziness (standard) + Freezing Fog (swift)
Round 3: Cast Empowered Orb of Sound (standard) + (free Split) Ray of Dizziness (swift)
Round 4: Cast Empowered Scorching Ray (standard) + (free Empowered) Orb of Sound (swift)
Round 5: repeat till everything is dead.
As long as the non-metamagic'd spell you cast each round is the same as the metamagic'd spell you cast the previous round, Residual Metamagic kicks in and adds on the free juice.
Note: Arcane Spellsurge can't be combined with Rapid Metamagic or the PHBII Metamagic Specialist ACF, since you actually WANT to increase the casting time of your spells, so that Arcane Spellsurge will reduce them. Otherwise all of your spells will be swift actions and you'll have nothing to do with your standard action but shoot your crossbow or drop trou and moon your enemies.
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2011-01-19, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
Actually, you can use Arcane Spellsurge along with PHBII Metamagic Specialist ACF, simply because you can choose not to use the ACF. You use the ACF when you want to cast normal quickened spells or when you want to use metamagic and reduce the casting to swift at the same time. The problem with Arcane Spellsurge is that it's from Dragon Magic and I doubt his DM will allow it when he reads the spell description .
@OP
Another spell that I somehow forgot to mention is Limited Wish. Aside from its general versatility, it can be used to force a -7 to the target's next saving throw. This can be particularly useful to a debuffer.Last edited by kme; 2011-01-19 at 06:00 PM.
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2011-01-20, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Building a Debuff Sorcerer
I'm always surprised that Summon Monster never gets mentioned in sorcerer builds. In particular, the sixth level version and above. These offer some very decent angels (and devils/demons if you're a bit naughty) that give you awhole slew of spells. It effectively boosts your spells known, want to plane shift, true see, wind wall, dim door, dispel, wall of ice, etc etc? Whats more they are effectively quickened because they act independantly.