[4e] Holy Symbols, Deities, and Paladins

[Gwic]

I've run a couple nights of the first published adventure for 4e, "Keep on the Shadowfell." Note that the quickstart rules and adventure are available free on WotC's coast if you want to see what I'm working with (just google H1.pdf and QuickStartRules.pdf).

Much of what I'm discussing could be a spoiler for players, so I'm going to hide it, but my overarching questions are at the bottom:

Spoiler

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We've run all of the encounters before you enter the Keep, and encounters 1-3 inside the Keep (for 8 encounters total). This means the PC's have accumulated the following 4 magical treasures:
+1 Dwarven Chainmail
+1 Amulet of Health
+1 Bloodcut Hide Armor
+1 Symbol of Battle (Bahamut).

We're playing with the pre-made characters (mostly) since most of my players are new to tabletop gaming and I didn't want to make them work through character creation. This means that we have:
- Dwarf Fighter
- Halfling Rogue
- Human Wizard
- Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut (re-rolled as Dwarf Cleric of Morodin)
- Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut
- Tiefling Warlock (re-rolled as Elf Ranger)

I'm concerned that I'm not "getting it" when it comes to treasure. If we'd used the original characters, the Hyde armor would have gone to waste, and (since the Paladin doesn't have any implement-based powers) the Cleric would have gotten the chainmail and the symbol, 2 of the 3 remaining treasures! This leads me to think I'm not understanding the treasures correctly.

One question (that requires this spoiler, so I can't post it outside) is whether the Dwarven Chainmail was actually intended for the Dwarf Fighter, who is currently wearing Scale? It'd be AC-neutral given the enhancement, but would provide him with in-combat self-healing, AND it would be intuitive to new players to give the Dwarven armor to the Dwarf.)

Here are my two big, general questions:
- Would a Holy Symbol give its enhancement bonus to a Paladin using a power without the implement keyword? PHB I says no, but I don't know if there's errata/corrections somewhere saying otherwise. These powers are Divine, even if they don't use the symbol, so I can see an argument for including them. On the other hand, it would allow Paladins to double-stack their weapon and implement bonus, which could be a big problem.
- Can a Cleric worshipping god X use a Holy Symbol of god Y? I haven't found anything on the books to say no, but I feel like it should be a no.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Here are my two big, general questions:
- Would a Holy Symbol give its enhancement bonus to a Paladin using a power without the implement keyword? PHB I says no, but I don't know if there's errata/corrections somewhere saying otherwise. These powers are Divine, even if they don't use the symbol, so I can see an argument for including them. On the other hand, it would allow Paladins to double-stack their weapon and implement bonus, which could be a big problem.

Implement powers use Implement bonuses; Weapon powers use Proficiency Bonus + Enchantment Bonus on the Weapon.

Don't stack them. There's no reason to. And while it wouldn't break the game (if you just added an extra +1 to their Weapon Attacks) it'd just give him a freebie for no good reason.

- Can a Cleric worshipping god X use a Holy Symbol of god Y? I haven't found anything on the books to say no, but I feel like it should be a no.

AFAIK there's no RAW but I agree with your RAI. Yes, this makes upgrading Holy Symbols awkward but you can get around that by having someone with Transfer Enchantment (from Eberron) around or house rule that Divine characters can re-consecrate Holy Symbols after an Extended Rest - or swap the Enchantment from an enemy Holy Symbol to their own.

[Mando Knight]

1.) Hell no. You only add the implement's enhancement bonus to powers with the Implement keyword, unless it's a Ki Focus (Monks and Assassins use them), in which case it can be used instead of the weapon's enhancement bonus. Either way, it's a same-type bonus, which never stacks. Ever. (Well, okay. If it specifically says it stacks, then it does)

2.) Holy symbols are mechanically generic (except for the few that say "Of God X" or something). You can say that it's "luckily" a symbol attuned to the worshiped deity, or to the deity's group of two or three similar deities (i.e. Corellon, Ioun, and Melora, or Pelor, Bahamut, and Moradin, or somesuch). You can also have the symbol magically change its appearance to a symbol so aligned, since it's magic, or whatever.

[Gwic]

Thanks for the speedy replies!

I'm on board for the ruling about Paladin's using them only for implement powers. That makes sense.

As for the issue of deity of the symbol, the symbol is specifically the on deity(it's specified in the text, I RP'ed it that way, AND it fits the theme/history of the place). I'll probably just RP it so that he can use it ("as long as you're serving Deity X, you can use it").

Again, thanks!

[Sipex]

I will also point out that the default treasure for Keep on the Shadowfell is very unbalanced towards leaders and defenders. so don't worry, you're getting it fine just the treasure is badly ordered.

+1 Dwarven Chainmail - Unless you have a class which already uses Chainmail this is generally useless if you're going for AC, otherwise a defender would have to take a hit in AC to wear this.
+1 Amulet of Health - While useful for all the party will take into consideration "Who is getting attacked the most?" this usually turns out to be the tank if they're tanking properly. Otherwise this could be intended for a striker.
+1 Bloodcut Hide Armor - I have no idea what the designers were thinking if they made this with default characters in mind.
+1 Symbol of Battle (Bahamut). - This was probably meant for the Paladin but the Cleric gets better use out of it.

Feel free to change the loot if you find it doesn't make sense. Try to make sure everyone gets a new toy.