Dragon Disciple Bard [3.5]

[Tvtyrant]

A friend wants to play a Dragon based character in a SRD/Core game (no psionics either, new DM [which isn't me!]) and asked me to help make a build for it.

So far what I have been working on goes: Bard 5, Dragon Disciple 10, Bard 5. Pretty basic and is based around using the natural weapons of the DD.

Stats:
Str:18 (Goes up to 26 from the +8 from DD)
Dex:12
Con:14 (Goes up +2 from DD to 16)
Int:8 (Goes up +2 from DD)
Wisdom:8
Charisma:14 (Goes up to 16 from +2 from DD)

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Natural Attack~Claws



Results in 1d6+9 Claws at level 15, and permanent flight and some armor buffs. Gets a to-hit of about +15, and the single bite attack as a standard action. Doesn't get a lot of slots but it gets 10 level 2 spells known at level 15 that can be cast from spontaneously.

Any suggestions on how to make it better?

[Urpriest]

Often this sort of build throws in some Barbarian levels. Even without variants, the Str boosts from rage can be quite handy, as can the higher BAB.

[Tvtyrant]

Often this sort of build throws in some Barbarian levels. Even without variants, the Str boosts from rage can be quite handy, as can the higher BAB.

That's a good point, debating wether the strength boost is better then the extra spell slots; he could go Bard 5/DD 10/Barbarian 5, but it loses both 3rd and 4th level slots. On the other hand they aren't going to piece much with that low of Charisma/CL.

[Runestar]

One of my first characters was a bard1/barb1/bard+3/dragon disciple. Not too shabby in a core game (plus whatever free material we could cobble together online). Be sure to take extra rage (complete warrior) for more rages and practiced spellcaster (complete arcane) to improve the quality of your mirror images.

Wield a greatsword and forget about your claws.

[Aldizog]

I wouldn't worry about the 20-level build, as this is a new DM. At what level is the game starting? At what level do you expect the majority of gaming to happen?

I'd recommend against barbarian, as you can't cast in a rage, nor can you use many magic items. I'm not a big fan of barbarian rage in general, though.

Rogue4/Sorc1 might be a good option given that you are limited to Core.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmmm...

Core doesn't give much love to Bards, most of that comes from other sources.

If you are wanting to play a 'I know what that is' build, either a Cloistered Cleric (SRD material, under variant classes), or a Wizard/Loremaster would work quite well to suit your purposes.

If you are wanting to be a guy who does a lot of party support and buffing, again, I'd suggest Cleric, who has the same BAB as a Bard, with a better spell selection to buff party with.

If you're wanting to be more of a 'skillmonkey', then Rogue is probably a better suggestion for you, since they also get Trapfinding and more skill points per level.

If you're wanting a character who can buff up, then wade into combat, then Sorcerer1/Barbarianx/Dragon Disciple would be better. Pick up Mage Armor and Shield, then go to town.

Now, you CAN use Inspire Courage while raging... so you can go Bard/Barbarian/DD quite readily.

Quite frankly, what are your hopes for this character? What do you envision him doing?

[Tvtyrant]

Starting at level 1; I'm the party Cleric and we have a Rogue. I think Bard is the best here because it gives him the ability to buff the party as well as hit things, and keeps him from being stupidly squishy.

I was thinking maybe having him pick up weapon proficiency with a reach weapon and then use the claws as back up weapons; he can full attack more often that way and isn't liable to get stung when they get in close quarters with him. The big advantage with the natural weapons is they have a higher to hit then iterative weapons, so they can power attack without worrying about missing on the third/fourth hit.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Starting at level 1; I'm the party Cleric and we have a Rogue. I think Bard is the best here because it gives him the ability to buff the party as well as hit things, and keeps him from being stupidly squishy.

I was thinking maybe having him pick up weapon proficiency with a reach weapon and then use the claws as back up weapons; he can full attack more often that way and isn't liable to get stung when they get in close quarters with him. The big advantage with the natural weapons is they have a higher to hit then iterative weapons, so they can power attack without worrying about missing on the third/fourth hit.

Longspears are simple weapons he already has proficiency in. d8, x3 crit, and a two-handed weapon, and can be set to receive a charge for double damage.

Also, I don't think natural weapons work the way you think they work. Unless you have Improved Multiattack, they work with one being a primary, and the rest taking a steep penalty.

[Coidzor]

Results in 1d6+9 Claws at level 15, and permanent flight and some armor buffs. Gets a to-hit of about +15, and the single bite attack as a standard action. Doesn't get a lot of slots but it gets 10 level 2 spells known at level 15 that can be cast from spontaneously.

Any suggestions on how to make it better?

The Draconic template gives the same or better claw weapons, along with other benefits, in exchange for +1 LA. It gives the dragonblood subtype, I believe, so that with the dragon wings feat, one gets flight as well. So that's the equivalent of a level (or less with LA buy-off) and a feat to get some stat boosts and a fair bit of what you said you wanted out of Dragon Disciple.

And how are you getting 1d6 claws from Dragon Disciple anyway? Relying on Enlarge Person?

Edit: Now, 1 level of dragon disciple with a cleverly chosen dragon type can be quite nifty along with Dragonfire Inspiration to get something other than fire for those extra d6s.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Draconic template gives the same or better claw weapons, along with other benefits, in exchange for +1 LA. It gives the dragonblood subtype, I believe, so that with the dragon wings feat, one gets flight as well. So that's the equivalent of a level (or less with LA buy-off) and a feat to get some stat boosts and a fair bit of what you said you wanted out of Dragon Disciple.

And how are you getting 1d6 claws from Dragon Disciple anyway? Relying on Enlarge Person?

Core only, so he can't use that. But yea, it would be MUCH better for him.

[Tvtyrant]

The Draconic template gives the same or better claw weapons, along with other benefits, in exchange for +1 LA. It gives the dragonblood subtype, I believe, so that with the dragon wings feat, one gets flight as well. So that's the equivalent of a level (or less with LA buy-off) and a feat to get some stat boosts and a fair bit of what you said you wanted out of Dragon Disciple.

And how are you getting 1d6 claws from Dragon Disciple anyway? Relying on Enlarge Person?

In my original post I said I was using Improved Natural Attack, which advances the claws. Enlarge Person would actually make them better then that. I forgot to put multiattack in the feats area, but I am aware how natural attacks work.

Interesting; what is the ECL of the Dragonblooded type? There is no such core type! Trust me, if it were me I would just have him go DFA. But if Longspear is a simple weapon then that is probably were he is going.

[Coidzor]

Core only, so he can't use that. But yea, it would be MUCH better for him.

Oh. In that case. Don't take all of Dragon Disciple. 10 levels for +13 ECL is not good, especially if LA buyoff is not allowed or not allowed after the specified levels.

[JellyPooga]

Spellcasting isn't going to be a forte of this build due to 10 levels of only getting "bonus spells". As such, I wouldn't bother with more than 4 levels of Bard and that only to get 2nd level spells. A 5th level of Bard gives redunancy in BAB and Base Saves (which are suffering enough in this build) and only gives you a couple of extra spells/day and known...not worth it.

On top of that, you'll need something butch; Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger is pretty much your choices. Here's some Pro's and Con's.

Barbarian:
Pro's - Rage is tasty, +2 to hit and damage is nothing to be sneezed at. Fast Movement might also save your life one day! If you take it to Level 2, you'll net Uncanny Dodge as well which is never a bad thing. Not-too-shabby skill points and d12 HD is nice too.
Con's - Rage is only 1/day. Depending on the rest of the group, this combined with a fairly limited number of spell/day means you may want to rest up more than others in the group. Can't cast spells in Rage. Not so much of a problem because the spells you'll be casting will be personal buffs: Mirror Image, Heroism and the like, which you can happily Rage on top of after the casting!

Fighter:
Pro's - Extra Feats are always nice. d10 HD make you 'ard.
Con's - Make those Feats count because it's all you're getting! Low skill points and naff else all. Medium and Heavy armour proficiency is redundant unless you invest in the Still Spell Feat for your casting.

Ranger:
Pro's - Favoured Enemy is nice if you're going up against a lot of the same creature. Combat Style at 2nd level could be useful, depending on your build. Tasty number of skill points and best Base Saves of the three.
Con's - only d8 HD.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In my original post I said I was using Improved Natural Attack, which advances the claws. Enlarge Person would actually make them better then that. I forgot to put multiattack in the feats area, but I am aware how natural attacks work.

Interesting; what is the ECL of the Dragonblooded type?

Dragonblooded doesn't have an inherent ECL, it's the draconic template which does.

Dragonblooded also turns on a lot of really cool feats from Dragon Magic, which you can't use. It's most ofen used to go into Dragonfire Inspiration, which lets you turn your morale bonus from Inspire Courage into d6's of fire damage (or other elemental type, depending on heretage choice)

[Tvtyrant]

Or throw monk on top for an incomprehensible amount of misses! :P

Out of those Ranger and Barbarian look the most useful, as Ranger gives lots of skill points and Barbarian gets him rage. Hmmm, I should look into alternate classes.

Since he already has high Charisma (it could be higher then I have made it so far) what about levels in Paladin of Freedom? They tend to be front loaded, and I can only cram about 5 levels in anyways.

[Tvtyrant]

How well would using Thug Fighter as the BaB class work? It would net him Sneak Attack as well as a good HD.

[Coidzor]

How well would using Thug Fighter as the BaB class work? It would net him Sneak Attack as well as a good HD.

That's not what Thug fighter actually does. You're thinking of the Sneak Attack Fighter. Which people do like combining with Thug for the extra skillpoints at no real loss due to trading feats for SA dice.

Not as beneficial as some useful class features, less skills and 1 more hp on average than a ranger, but sneak attack dice are more fun when one has multiple weapons.

[Tvtyrant]

That's not what Thug fighter actually does. You're thinking of the Sneak Attack Fighter. Which people do like combining with Thug for the extra skillpoints at no real loss due to trading feats for SA dice.

Not as beneficial as some useful class features, less skills and 1 more hp on average than a ranger, but sneak attack dice are more fun when one has multiple weapons.

He gets 3 :P Or actually taking IUS would get him more, but they would be at a hefty to-hit penalty. He would get 3d6-4d6 SA, which is on top of Power Attack damage, which with hide he could do sometimes. It would probably be one big attack per encounter.

[Coidzor]

He gets 3 :P Or actually taking IUS would get him more, but they would be at a hefty to-hit penalty. He would get 3d6-4d6 SA, which is on top of Power Attack damage, which with hide he could do sometimes. It would probably be one big attack per encounter.

You're overlooking armor spikes and that bards can wear light armor without interfering with their spellcasting. So that's 4 w/out IUS, 5 with, and IUS + armor spikes would allow use of TWF in addition to the natural attacks for more sneak attack damage opportunities.

And a -2 to your natural weapon attacks is not really a "hefty" to-hit penalty.

Edit: what, does he not have any flanking buddies? If so, why the heck is he going this direction for the primary melee character?

[Waker]

If you aren't too attached to the bard, you could toss Assassin in there to compensate for the spellcasting requirement. Ranger can qualify for it easy enough.
I've always liked the idea of being a draconic assassin.

[true_shinken]

If you aren't too attached to the bard, you could toss Assassin in there to compensate for the spellcasting requirement. Ranger can qualify for it easy enough.
I've always liked the idea of being a draconic assassin.

The only problem with this build is that you should really take Dragon Disciple later. You want extra 4th level spells.
Ranger 6/Assassin 7/Dragon Disciple 7 looks decent for Core-only.

[Tvtyrant]

You're overlooking armor spikes and that bards can wear light armor without interfering with their spellcasting. So that's 4 w/out IUS, 5 with, and IUS + armor spikes would allow use of TWF in addition to the natural attacks for more sneak attack damage opportunities.

And a -2 to your natural weapon attacks is not really a "hefty" to-hit penalty.

Edit: what, does he not have any flanking buddies? If so, why the heck is he going this direction for the primary melee character?

Well, he has me the combat Cleric, but as I said the character options I was given were essentially "Make a Dragon-man!" and my DM said "Only SRD, no Psionics" so everything else is up to me. Since he is still going to only be wearing light armor I figure SA Fighter nets him lots of extra damage. By the time we get to the level where he could get SA he might have his own ideas on what he wants, I'm just trying to build as many options as I can. But using a whole barrage of attacks to sneak attack with is pretty awesome

The reason I mentioned a pole-arm earlier was for AoO, as he has a higher Dex then most of us (not then the Rogue, but he seems to be most interested in ranged SA).

Another option I was thinking of adding to the pile was Bear Totem Barbarian, because Natural Weapons count as Light Weapons, except they get full Str to damage. So using the DD's massive strength boost the Bardbarian could grapple and then tear them apart with its NA. I would throw in Dragon Totem but the Barbarian level is going to be way too low for Frightful presence. Otherwise the fact that the DD gets high charisma would be awesome.

I'm thinking that a good race might be the Desert Halforc; they get +2 Con, -2 Int (dump stat) and get Barbarian as the favored class. Its better then a normal Halforc, and at gets a free feat to help balance against Human. Not a great feat, but Run can potentially be useful.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You want a dragon man? Half-Dragon template. +3 is a heck of a lot less painful than +10...

[Tvtyrant]

That's true; I will run it by him. I still think the Desert Half-orc Bard5/Dragon Disciple 10/Sneak Attack Fighter 5 would have been cool.

[dextercorvia]

because Natural Weapons count as Light Weapons, except they get full Str to damage.

Most of the time, secondaries get 1/2 strength. If you are optimizing for strength in the SRD, Water Orc is your best bet.

[ericgrau]

10 lost caster levels are bad for a bard. Ya I'd try 3 if anything with the template. That puts you 1 point ahead on attack bonus. Then the 17 bard levels puts you 5 AB behind. So you're medium BAB melee with almost no bonus damage. You can get a little more AB, but it costs you a round. At least you can cast... but not at the same time as melee. So you're left as a horrible eldritch knight, casting only level 6 spells and at less BAB.

Typically dragon disciple is best for full BAB melee who dip a single level of a caster. In that situation the PrC is better than the template, b/c 3 lost levels of d12 HD, 2 good saves and medium BAB really hurt. I've run the stats both ways in core and DD was better IIRC. I think DD 7 (plus more fighter or barbarian) was better than DD 10 statswise though. I'd have to check to be sure.

Oh, and at level 15 he should be doing way more damage than that simply with a magic weapon.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

A level 15 Bard with a Strength of 18 and a +5 magic weapon does an average of 45 a turn if he hits with all of his attacks, a Fighter at that level with a +5 Greatsword does around 75 on a round where he hits with all of them (not including power attack) if I give him a +4 Ogre Strength and assume around 26 Strength. The build I posted does around 46 a turn without any objects at all and not taking into account either rage boost from Barbarian or Sneak Attack from SA Fighter (the two that I am caught between).

So it does the same as a normal Bard that throws itself into Strength would, and costs less. With a Giant's Strength Belt like the Fighter is wearing it goes to 54 average, and the lowest attack is at +20 to hit. It's not incredible, but it has an overall better to-hit then the Fighter does. Which means it can Power Attack more deeply, say subtracting 5 from to hit so it has a +15 and adding 5 to damage on each of its hits, which amounts to +30 damage for around 84 damage on a full round attack, assuming its 6 attacks all connect (Claw, Claw, UAS, UAS, Bite, Armor Spikes). If we remove a similar amount of to hit from the Fighter its lowest attack of three drops from +18 to +13, removing the exact amount of to hit he gained from his +5 magic weapon. He then gets an extra +30 from using a two handed weapon, so his damage is 105. The DD does around 80% of the same damage at level 18 with less costs involved.

Assuming they use the same amount of wealth then the 50,000 for the +5 weapon amounts to a +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists (3,000 GP difference) which adds up to around 90 damage on a full attack with Power Attack. So there is a 15 damage difference between it and a Fighter of the same level. Again, this ignores the 54 average sneak attack damage it would get from hitting something from behind if it went SA Fighter (+3d6 per attack) or the extra +4 to strength it would get from a Barbarian Rage (which amounts to less extra damage but useful all the time).

Now you can check my math on all of that if you want, but essentially the damage difference between it and a PA Fighter is negligible. A PA Barbarian would have more then the Fighter, but then I have to add the Rage or SA to the DD's attack. Overall it seems fairly normal for a melee character to me, and it gets some crappy casting the throw on top :P

[ericgrau]

You'll do more with d6 enchantments though. The fighter also has greater weapon focus while the barbarian has rage.

A level 15 fighter should be doing 29 damage per hit at +25/+25/+20/+15. That's with a +1 weapon and d6 damage enchantments; I dunno how you got +20. Average CR 13 monster (4 of them = EL 17 encounter) AC is 27 so you don't want to power attack below a +26 AB against the average foe, or your damage per round will go down. Generally core PA is good for saving for below average AC and forum bragging :P. Dropping your AB from +20 to even lower OTOH at that level is a horrible thing to do.

EDIT: 91 damage per round against AC 27 for the above. With sword and board. THF gets about 15 more, and maybe 0-4 more than that with a more reasonable power attack that'll actually hit. A +15 AB OTOH would only hit on 45% of his attacks. Build here in case you're curious: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=20 . Nothing special about it at all, no tricks, only a bit of +X item optimization. Heck a fighter / dragon disciple would be better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You'll do more with d6 enchantments though. The fighter also has greater weapon focus while the barbarian has rage.

And you have Inspire Courage... granted, you can't get as silly with it as you could if you were allowed to get out of Core, but still... every point of attack can be another point of power attack.

[ericgrau]

Well at bard 5 that's a +1, and actually a waste of a combat round if he doesn't get a buffing round in advance. Ya, another reason to use the template if you must play a dragony bard. It's still suboptimal but I think it'd be playable. And give him a magic weapon. I suppose you can still bite. Oh and if you really like flying at level 15 he can barely afford a cape of flying, though at 1/4 his wealth it's a bit expensive. Winged boots are a budget item he might try in the meantime, though spending that action to activate hurts - meaning optimally they'd be saved until really needed or when given a buffing round - and boots of speed are better unless the bard likes to haste the party anyway. Man, another reason for the template and more bard levels. Add some heroism and so on for the whole party and maybe the build isn't actually suboptimal.