So, I feel like being a loser[3.5]

[Silverlich]

Ehh, screw it. Help me build the most optimized mystic theurge ever seen in 3.5. Please include which books all material is found in. I'm looking for suggestions about all mechanical aspects of the character; spell selection, items, the whole nine yards. Suggestions for any level are appreciated. I think the DM is going to try to be sadistic, and I want to give him nightmares.

[mootoall]

... The True Necromancer? Good? What? I'm sorry, but that's ... not true.

[Silverlich]

Really? Because I see it as "hey look, I can gain levels in wizard and cleric at the same time for 12 levels and get bonus abilities related to undead and epic flavor"

[Tvtyrant]

Look at how many caster levels you lost; technically speaking a MT is a better caster then a TN.

[Silverlich]

How do i lose levels? I can just be a multiclass wiz/cleric until I enter the prestige class, take the first two levels (each of which give me the spell casting of either of my classes), and enjoy the spell progression of a mystic theurge plus bonus powers for the next twelve levels of my fourteen level prestige class.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, you loose two caster levels on both sides during your 12 levels, and the first set of lost levels at 1st and 2nd level. Considering how far behind you already are by multiclassing, this is more than simply painful.

About the best way to do it would be:

Wizard 1 (precocious apprentice)/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge2/True Necromancer12/Mystic Theurge2

You do end up with (barely) 15 levels of Wizard casting, which means no 9th level spells...

A better use might be as a four level dip for Dread Necromancer (assuming you could get Southern Magician feat to let your spells count as either divine or arcane, since Summon Undead II is on their spell list) to get the free always-on Desecrate for better undead creation. This is doubleplusgood if you pick up Necropolitian for the self-healing aspect, and can't get the litch form anyways.

[Silverlich]

What is precocious apprentice?

[mootoall]

Because let's look at the prereqs to get in- first, a feat tax. Not tooooo bad, but pretty bad. Next, Summon Undead II, so you've gotta be a third level cleric. Next, Command Undead, requiring you to be a 3rd level Wizard. So you've got more MAD than you would as a cleric trying to accomplish necromancy, less BAB than a cleric of the same level, and you're losing three levels of Cleric. Then, you lose one more level of each casting class, meaning your Caster Level is that of a Cleric 4/ Wizard 4 by eighth level. Then you get your Mystic Theurge advancement. Meh.

[Silverlich]

I don't want to be a true necromancer anymore.

[Mando Knight]

You do end up with (barely) 15 levels of Wizard casting, which means no 9th level spells...

And then your first encounter at level 20 is against a Good Wizard or Cleric 20 who just Gates in a Solar or two. Then he leaves to go trim his hedges or give cryptic quests to first level adventurers or something while 9-foot divine warriors burn your army of bones and rotting flesh to the ground.

[Flickerdart]

Optimal Mystic Theurge? Easy. Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 9. Double nines. Enjoy!

[Tvtyrant]

I don't want to be a true necromancer anymore.

That class disappointed me when I first realized its issues as well. If you want both arcane and divine you are best off going Arcane Hierophant/MT with Wizard/Druid. It gets Wildshape and better casting.

[Silverlich]

And...can you help me with feats, skills, the order I take levels in, and items? I want to be the very best, like no one ever was...(without infinite loops or other obvious areas where I am deliberately breaking the rules.)

[mootoall]

For the True Necromancer feel but none of the suck, you could go Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. One of my personal favorite classes.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... loses Divine casting at 1st and 6th; Arcane at 2nd and 7th. Requires 2nd level spells on both sides, but only 5th level Skill requirements. How do we salvage....

Wiz-4/Savage Bard-1/Ur-Priest-2/True Necromancer-13?

Ah, no Death domain. Hmm... Arcane Disciple doesn't work (doesn't mesh with Ur-Priest).

Wizard-1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-2/True Necromancer-14: Wizard-15/Cleric-17 casting. Workable. Far from optimal, but workable.

[Silverlich]

Huh. For once, that status about your post being obsolete was actually correct. Let me mourn my true necromancer, and please please please please help me with my theurge of doom.

[mootoall]

Hmm, you could always go Dominant Ideal Ardent 10/Ur-Priest 2/Whatever the Psionic Mystic Theurge is 8. That gets you double-nine casting.

[FMArthur]

Going for MAXIMUM optimization? Look up Beholder Mage builds and how to enter the class. If you're going for insane raw power I'd actually skip the piddly Ur-Priest shenanigans to devote 10 levels of the build to Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5 to get the Planar Bubble ability and put some 10:1 action economy in your already 11:1 action economy. You can use Mystic Theurge if you like but it's better to use Arcane Hierophant for Druids because it is better in every way and progresses Druid class features.

[Silverlich]

What book is beholder mage found in?

[FMArthur]

What book is beholder mage found in?

Lords of Madness. Requires you to find a way to be a Beholder and likely permanently. Polymorph Any Object cast on you twice works. If you do go a druid route then Aberrant Wildshape is probably better since you'll be able to renew it at will and keep your Int.

[nedz]

Going for MAXIMUM optimization? Look up Beholder Mage builds and how to enter the class. If you're going for insane raw power I'd actually skip the piddly Ur-Priest shenanigans to devote 10 levels of the build to Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5 to get the Planar Bubble ability and put some 10:1 action economy in your already 11:1 action economy. You can use Mystic Theurge if you like but it's better to use Arcane Hierophant for Druids because it is better in every way and progresses Druid class features.

Wow, a Beholder Mage/Planar Shepherd Theurge !
Is that even possible ?

[mootoall]

What book is beholder mage found in?

We really, truly do mean that this is the pinnacle of cheese. Be prepared to have books thrown at you. Just a warning ...

[Silverlich]

If I were to be transformed into a beholder and take beholdermage levels, would I still be able to use them while wildshaped?

[Tvtyrant]

For a saner build then Beholder Mage/Planar Shepard, I suggest just going Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge, taking Natural Spell as normal of course. You can also go Bard/Sublime Chord for 9th level spells and access to some healing magic.

[Silverlich]

We really, truly do mean that this is the pinnacle of cheese. Be prepared to have books thrown at you. Just a warning ...

Oh, I WANT the pinnacle of cheese. I'm doing this because I want to be a TOTAL JERK really powerful.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, if you want to be a rocking necromancer-type character, may I humbly suggest...

Necropolitian Dread Necromancer 8/True Necro4/Dread Necro 8

Take the feat Southern Magician, which lets your spells count as either arcane or divine, then take the feat Arcane Disciple for the Death domain so that you can qualify.

You still loose A caster level, but the Zone of Desecration is worth that price, since you can't actually cast Desecrate...

From there, take Corpsecrafter, Destruction Retribution, Black Lore of Moil, and Fell Animate. Also make sure to take Undead Leadership for a Bard Cohort.

Now then, this Bard Cohort should be some type of corporeal undead. He should also have the Requieum, song of the heart, and dragonfire inspiration feats, and should have been Dragonblooded in life. Then we go with Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends, make sure he has a Masterworked Mandolin.

So now you make undead by using Black Lore of Moil + Fell Animate. With your Zone of Desecration, they get bonus stats. They get to blow up to deal negative damage in an area effect when they die. Oh, and they are doing like +8d6 damage per hit, and have a +8 on attack and damage

Sure, they're weak mooks. But they're a LOT of weak mooks that hit *HARD*, and blow up when they die, which not only deals more damage to opponents, but heals each other, and yourself.

If you have the room, Mother Cyst is also a fun feat.

[Silverlich]

NO. MORE. NECROMANCERS. (unless that is how to optimize something.)

[Silverlich]

Attention All Posters: Please Help Me Build An Overpowered Caster! Cheese Is Good!

[mikethepoor]

You could always try Wizard3/Archivist3/MT10/X4 if you want to be MAD about it. Archivist uses the cleric list but wizard mechanics.

[Claudius Maximus]

You could always try Wizard3/Archivist3/MT10/X4 if you want to be MAD about it. Archivist uses the cleric list but wizard mechanics.

Wouldn't that be SAD?

Anyway Silverlich what in particular are you trying to accomplish with this character? Apparently you no longer want necromancy... Do you still want a theurge?