Quick Question: Warlock Arcane Trickster

[Elric VIII]

Can a Warlock get into Arcane Trickster with the feat Spell Hand and 3rd level invocations?

[Godskook]

No, he can't. Invocations don't fulfill "spell levels" requirements.

[Elric VIII]

No, he can't. Invocations don't fulfill "spell levels" requirements.

Alright, thank you.

[Elric VIII]

Just wondering, is it possible to have a Warlock Kensai with the Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Glaive as his signature weapon?

[Godskook]

I'm guessing no, but I can't really figure out how enduring a blast shape invocation is, but near as I can figure, the blast shape is only in effect during the round you're using it, and therefore wouldn't be available to Imbue with power using the Kensai's class ability.

[Escheton]

Collab with your DM on a homebrew that does...

[Darrin]

Can a Warlock get into Arcane Trickster with the feat Spell Hand and 3rd level invocations?

SLAs do count for a requirement that specifies a particular spell. So Spell Hand does allow you to satisfy the "mage hand" requirement. However, invocations can't be used for the 2nd half of the requirement: at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.

If your DM allows early-entry tricks, then there are a few methods to get a 3rd level spell:

Magical Training (PGtF) + Precocious Apprentice (CArc) + Sanctum Spell (CArc) should work. That idiotic "singular/pural" argument doesn't apply here because Arcane Trickster only requires one arcane spell.

A one-level dip into Beguiler or Sorcerer + Precocious Apprentice + Sanctum Spell would be only two feats, and the Beguiler's skill points could help you get into Unseen Seer (much better PrC than Arcane Trickster).

[Godskook]

If your DM allows early-entry tricks, then there are a few methods to get a 3rd level spell:

Magical Training (PGtF) + Precocious Apprentice (CArc) + Sanctum Spell (CArc) should work. That idiotic "singular/pural" argument doesn't apply here because Arcane Trickster only requires one arcane spell.

As dubious as using Sanctum Spell is in the first place, I think it is particularly a bad idea in this case, since the build in question would probably never learn 'true' 3rd level spells and relying on being in your own sanctum for the full game is generally a bad idea to have access to your primary prestige class.

[Darrin]

As dubious as using Sanctum Spell is in the first place, I think it is particularly a bad idea in this case, since the build in question would probably never learn 'true' 3rd level spells and relying on being in your own sanctum for the full game is generally a bad idea to have access to your primary prestige class.

Sanctum Spell is a lot less dubious than Precocious Apprentice. And I don't see why this build would ever need to learn true 3rd level spells. I would assume Arcane Tricker is being used to advance Warlock invocations. The Warlock would never need to be inside his sanctum.

[Elric VIII]

I spoke to my DM, and he has agreed to allow invocations to count for the "spells of x level" as long as it would not let me enter a class at a lower level than a sorcerer (EDIT: I tried for Wizard, but didn't want to push my lock too far).

Which book has unseen seer?

[dextercorvia]

As dubious as using Sanctum Spell is in the first place, I think it is particularly a bad idea in this case, since the build in question would probably never learn 'true' 3rd level spells and relying on being in your own sanctum for the full game is generally a bad idea to have access to your primary prestige class.

This would only be a problem if your DM rules that you lose the benefits of a PrC when you run out of spells of a sufficient level.

A "standard" Wizard5/Rogue3/ArcaneTrickster1, might have only 3 third level spells, and as his highest, he would want to use them in combat. Would he lose the ability to use Ranged Legerdemain after using his last 3rd level spell for the day and before resting?

[Keld Denar]

USS is in Complete Mage. It doesn't do very much for a Warlock though, as the 2 main draws of it, Expanded Learning and Divination Spell Power, are both worthless for a warlock being as you don't have spells and don't cast Divinations. You'd be better off with Arcane Trickster despite its relatively lackluster features, unless you are simply using USS2 as a stepping stone to get into AT.

[Godskook]

Sanctum Spell is a lot less dubious than Precocious Apprentice. And I don't see why this build would ever need to learn true 3rd level spells. I would assume Arcane Tricker is being used to advance Warlock invocations. The Warlock would never need to be inside his sanctum.

See, Precocious Apprentice actually gives a 2nd level spell slot, which the character is able to cast. It miscasts on a failed caster-level check, but miscasting doesn't negate prestige-class qualification. However, the check doesn't determine if you have the slot, just if casting it is useful. This is also an 'always on' thing, exactly the same as if you were 3rd level wizard.

Sanctum Spell, on the other hand, gives an 'effective' spell level, and this is only existent when you are standing in a certain location. Wanna stand somewhere else? Tough cookies, the spell is now 1 lower than usual.

However, that's simply the general differences. What matters here is that using sanctum spell to qualify for Arcane Trickster, and:

1.Never actually gaining an additional method of qualifying for Arcane Trickster
2.Adventuring

means that, while adventuring, you don't qualify for your prestige class. What this means exactly is probably going to differ from DM to DM(and I forgot that core doesn't revoke membership by RAW when you fail to qualify), but at the very least, it prevents you from leveling while on the road, and if your DM takes the approach of applying the CW and CArc prestige class rules to Arcane Trickster, goodbye caster-levels.

Within an actual casting class, sanctum spell's usage in one's character creation can be ignored once play begins, cause being in the prestige class will self-qualify. A warlock can't do that for Arcane Trickster.

This would only be a problem if your DM rules that you lose the benefits of a PrC when you run out of spells of a sufficient level.

1.That happens to be a rule from the same book as Sanctum Spell.

2."Not being in Sanctum" is quite different from "out of spells for today".

[Redrat2k6]

@Elric VIII

You can be an Aasimar with spell hand and meet the requirements.

Arcane trickster requirements state you only need 1 3rd level spell or higher.

In complete arcane it states (somewhere I forget) that SLA's count when determining requirements for spells.

Aasimar gives you access to Daylight 1/day, and spell hand to magehand.

[Elric VIII]

I'm fine with sticking to Trickster. This is more of a contingency plan for something I would play if we do a one-shot, rather than something I'm going to definately play. Simplicity is probobly best. Thank you for the help.

EDIT:

@Elric VIII

You can be an Aasimar with spell hand and meet the requirements.

Arcane trickster requirements state you only need 1 3rd level spell or higher.

In complete arcane it states (somewhere I forget) that SLA's count when determining requirements for spells.

Aasimar gives you access to Daylight 1/day, and spell hand to magehand.

This makes it even easier. But arent invocations SLA's? Is there something specifically stating that they don't apply?

[Keld Denar]

SLAs only count for qualifying for PrCs if the PrC requires "able to cast X spell". Mindbender is the commonly cited PrC, as it requires the ability to cast Charm Person. Now, a Psionic the Psionic Charm Person could qualify, as could a Warlock with the Charm Person invocation.

Unfortunately, SLAs aren't ACTUAL spells. Even if the SLA mimics a 3rd level spell, its not an actual 3rd level spell. Its a 3rd level SLA. Thus, even if you have a 3rd level SLA, you aren't casting a 3rd level spell, and don't qualify for the PrC.

Fortunately, in this case, Elric's DM houseruled this to fix it.

And Godskook, Sanctum Spell works outside of your sanctum. Prereqs only care that you COULD POTENTIALLY cast a spell of level X. When you are in your sanctum, you CAN. When you are outside of your sanctum, you COULD POTENTIALLY reenter your sanctum and cast the spell of level X.

If you had to be able to cast the spell at any given time, then you'd cease to qualify for the PrC if you ever actually cast the spell or spells. It would suck to lose all of your class abilities just because you cast all of your 3rd level or higher spells...its the same thing with Sanctum Spell. Or worse, a Mindbender can't bend minds because he didn't memorize Charm Person that day. Just because you can't produce the effect on demand, doesn't mean you aren't capable of producing the effect ever. It still qualifies. Like anything else in D&D, if you don't like it, you can not allow it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work and that other people might use it.

[Redrat2k6]

@Keld Denar

On page 72 of Complete Arcane under Specific Spell requirements it gives the exception to the SLA's Do not count for spells known rule.

I will not state it exactly because it is not OGL, but the section you are referring to is under the heading Spellcasting Level, and the example they give for the rule is able to cast 3rd level spells (emphasis mine).

It is quite handy then because Aasimar truly can qualify for the single 3rd level spell requirement with it's daylight SLA as mentioned in the exception for specific spells or spell.

Also you are right on the being able to cast a spell at any given time part. People should try not to take the spell requirements so literally.

[Elric VIII]

This sanctum spell argument sounds suspiciously like something that was mentioned when I asked about the Ultimate Magus. I'm sensing that it is a point of contention, and I do not wish to spark too much argument.

Thank you for your suggestions and clarifications.

[Godskook]

And Godskook, Sanctum Spell works outside of your sanctum. Prereqs only care that you COULD POTENTIALLY cast a spell of level X. When you are in your sanctum, you CAN. When you are outside of your sanctum, you COULD POTENTIALLY reenter your sanctum and cast the spell of level X.

And you COULD POTENTIALLY do such things as:

-Re-equip a magic item
-Restore your qualifying alignment
-Recover levels lost to level drain

However, "COULD POTENTIALLY" is not a valid qualifier in those cases where that rule is in effect.

Now, to me, when I compare 'magic item', 'spell slot', and 'sanctum', one's sanctum is a lot more similar to a 'magic item'. I find no RAW for adjudicating which way to rule explicitly, however.

[Keld Denar]

And?

Items don't qualify you for PrCs, unless its a specific PrC that calls out a specific item, like Kensai or Occult Slayer. If they do, they generally call out specific rules for how to handle the loss of that item. Having an item that casts Charm Person won't qualify you for Mindbender, for example. Not relevant.

Restore an alignment: generally, if abilities are tied to an alignment, and you stop being that alignment, it explicitly states that you require an atonement to restore those abilities. If it doesn't make that statement, then changing alignment has no other impact on the class other than inhibiting taking further levels of the class. Technically, there is nothing saying you can't change your alignment with a pencil stroke whenever it suites your needs, although most if not all DMs will disallow changing alignments just to level up, then changing back afterwards (Example, LN cleric could potentially change his alignment to LG, and thus take levels in Church Inquisitor, then go back to LN after taking the level, so long as it doesn't violate the 1 step rule for clerics, which would require an atonement). Still, it is possible, and thus not relevant.

Recovering lost levels what? This doesn't even make sense. Levels always drain from the top down, so theres no way level loss could invalidate a PrC you've taken by removing the prereqs. If you are talking about say...a level 1 character who used to be level 10 taking his 2nd level in a PrC because when he was level 10, he qualified, then you are basically taking the whole concept of prereqs and throwing it out. Every character has the potential to qualify for everything, in that regard, simply by leveling up and gaining prereqs. The difference is, at that given level, they wouldn't have the ability EVER to qualify, whereas someone using Sanctum Spell to qualify for a PrC COULD qualify, if they were in their sanctum.

So, yea...wut?

[Godskook]

Items don't qualify you for PrCs, unless its a specific PrC that calls out a specific item, like Kensai or Occult Slayer. If they do, they generally call out specific rules for how to handle the loss of that item. Having an item that casts Charm Person won't qualify you for Mindbender, for example. Not relevant.

Having a ring of Evasion will qualify you for Fochlucan Lyrist, among others.

Restore an alignment: generally, if abilities are tied to an alignment, and you stop being that alignment, it explicitly states that you require an atonement to restore those abilities. If it doesn't make that statement, then changing alignment has no other impact on the class other than inhibiting taking further levels of the class. Technically, there is nothing saying you can't change your alignment with a pencil stroke whenever it suites your needs, although most if not all DMs will disallow changing alignments just to level up, then changing back afterwards. Still, it is possible, and thus not relevant.

Wait, ah. You're unfamiliar with the rules I'm speaking of(I can tell cause you're directly contradicting them with your bolded text).

Complete Warrior, page 16, third paragraph
Complete Arcane, page 17, last paragraph of the first column

Please read them before we continue.

[Redrat2k6]

@Godskook

You should probably not continue as it is rude to the OP who probably did not want his thread derailed into an argument, when he specifically stated
"and I do not wish to spark too much argument."

[Elric VIII]

@Godskook

You should probably not continue as it is rude to the OP who probably did not want his thread derailed into an argument, when he specifically stated
"and I do not wish to spark too much argument."

I apreciate you attempt to get back on track. Thanks.



But, on the topic of prerequisites, how does no longer qualifying for a PrC affect current abilities if it is not addressed in the text. For instance, if I take Hellfire Warlock, then after the class is finished train away Brimstone/Rimewind Blast can I continue to use the class abilities normally?

Related to that, the Warlock class says that any time that new invocations would be learned, an old one may be replaced. Unlike Sorcerer, it does not state that the change is made at certain levels, only when new invocations are gained. Does this mean that I can change my invocations while in Arcane Trickster?

[Keld Denar]

If its not in Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane, as Godskook mentions, then you simply can't progress it anymore. Thats fine, if you've already taken all levels. Beware that you might have to train it back if you get level drained or such and have to retake certain levels.

It depends on how its worded. Sorcerer and martial initiators specifically call out base class levels. If Warlock only states that you can swap an invocation when you gain new invocations, then it would work normally with Arcane Trickster. Consequently, it would also interact interestingly with feats like Extra Invocation, that give you an extra invocation known at irregular intervals...

[Elric VIII]

Well, I will qualify for Arcane Trickster before Hellfire, so if I replace it at the level after I finish Hellfire Warlock I should be able to take the levels in a different order, if I lose levels, to make sure I can qualify. Although that's a useful warning to take into account.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another way to enter Arcane Trickster as a warlock involves a PrC called Nosmiac Chirgeon (probably horribly misspelled).

Basically, you're a halfling. And you get a dragonmark. Then you can trade uses of your SLA (invocations, which are unlimited use) to cast an equivalent level Cause X Wounds spell. They still count as arcane spells. Now you are casting 3rd level spells, and can qualify.

[Elric VIII]

Another way to enter Arcane Trickster as a warlock involves a PrC called Nosmiac Chirgeon (probably horribly misspelled).

Basically, you're a halfling. And you get a dragonmark. Then you can trade uses of your SLA (invocations, which are unlimited use) to cast an equivalent level Cause X Wounds spell. They still count as arcane spells. Now you are casting 3rd level spells, and can qualify.

That's pretty cool, what dictates CL for the wound spells?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's pretty cool, what dictates CL for the wound spells?

The level-equivelant of the SLA. So if you have, for example, Hellrime Blast applied to an eldritch blast, it counts as a 4th level spell.

In short, your first Lesser Invocation will generally do the trick.

[Elric VIII]

The level-equivelant of the SLA. So if you have, for example, Hellrime Blast applied to an eldritch blast, it counts as a 4th level spell.

In short, your first Lesser Invocation will generally do the trick.

I mean for the variable aspect, inflict light = 1d8+1/level. Is it just the lowest possible level needed to cast that spell?

[MeeposFire]

The caster level of the ability used to power the spell. So if you have a warlock caster level of 10 then your inflict spell will be at a CL of 10.

This Prc also gives you spell casting of an adept.