ToB Gish: Requesting Advice on Build, Spells, and Feats.

[Elric VIII]

I would like to build a gish, but there are some basic concepts about the theory of spell use, and the classes that I will take, that I would like to address.

I would like to be a Good-aligned Gray Elf.

The Build:

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Level 1-6:
- This will include 1 level of Warblade and 5 levels of Wizard or Wizard equivalents.
- I will focus mostly on counters/boosts from Warblade. I'm thinking of taking it at level 5 for access to both Moment of Perfect Mind and Action Before Thought. Then I will take Martial Study at level 9 for Mind over Body.
- I'm don't believe that there are any Wizard PrCs that would allow me to gain a BAB higher than 3 over these levels, but I would love to be proven wrong.

Level 7-17
- I will take 2 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage, to get to 5 BAB and Mystic Phoenix Stance/Arcane Strike.
- At 9 I will take 5 levels of Abjurant Champion.
- I think at level 14 I will take 1 level of Spellsword for the +1 BAB, spellcasting, and boost to saves.
- Levels 15-17 will be more JPM

Level 18-20
- Are there any classes that I can take for these levels that will grant me full BAB and casting?

Feats and Class Features:

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Feats:
- Arcane Strike: I'm gaining Arcane Wrath from JPM, is it worth it to take this as well?
- Companion Guard Style: Dex to hit with longsword. Better than W Finesse since I can wield it 2H. Gray Elf, General.
- Faerie Mysteries Initiate: I'm taking this from level 1 to replace Con with Int for my hp bonus. Gray Elf, General.
- Knowledge Devotion: With high Int it may not be too much of a problem to spend 2 points per skill on my non-wizard levels.
- Martial Study: I'm going to use this to grab the last Concentration-to-saves maneuver.
- Obtain Familiar: I will have relatively few levels in Wizard, so an ACF that gives up my familiar, along with this feat, will probobly be a good choice.
- Also, can feats taken simultaneously count for each others’ prereqs? For instance, can I take Sculpt Spell and Split Ray at the same level, using each one to qualify for the other?

Class Features:
- I believe that Focused Specialist is a good choice since volume of spells may be more useful than diversity for a gish. (Is this a good assumption?)
- UA Variant that replaces bonus feats and Scribe Scroll with Fighter feats.
- I think I want to be a Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt or a Transmuter with Sudden Shift, for extra mobility. (any advice will be welcome, I'm not sure what specialty is the best for this).
- I think I'll use a Hummingbird Familiar for +4 to init, along with stacking my dex this should give me a good initiative.
- Elf Wizard level 3: Double familiar bonus, does this work with Obtain Familiar?
- I believe I will take Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation as banned schools.

Spells:

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- Briliant Blade: Long-lasting version of Wraithstrike. Can’t hurt things immune to nonlethal damage.
- Dimension Hop, Quickened: I like this a lot.
- Electric Vengeance: Immediate action, deal damage to a for that hit you. Are there better options?
- Energy Surge line: Add energy damage to weapons for one round as a swift action. Is this worth it?
- Enlarge Person: Even though I’m not Str-based, increased weapon damage and reach is not bad.
- Truestrike: Excelent spell, I’ll take it.
- Whirling Blade: I like this one, not sure how practical it is.
- Wraithstrike: I assume that this is a given, right?

I would like advice on any spells that can help enhance combat abilities. I can handle the utility/offensive spells myself, but arcane gish is new territory for me.


- Is there some guideline to using SoL spells? I keep trying to work with them, but I seem to just waste my turns more than half the time.
- Are there other abjuration spells that grant AC bonuses (other than Shield) that work with Abjurant Champion? I’m thinking about Luminous Armor, but I’d like others.

Thank you.

[dragonsamurai77]

Can't help with the build, but why Grey Elf? The Fire Elf has a Charisma penalty instead of a Strength penalty, but is otherwise the same, stat-wise.

[Elric VIII]

Can't help with the build, but why Grey Elf? The Fire Elf has a Charisma penalty instead of a Strength penalty, but is otherwise the same, stat-wise.

There are 2 feats that have Gray Elf as one of their prereqs (there are others, but this is the one common to both). One replaces to-hit with Dex for a Longsword; you cannot finesse a longsword and you cannot wield a finessable weapon two-handed (aside from Spiked Chain). The other allows me to replace Constitution with Intelligence when determining bonus hp.

[dragonsamurai77]

There are 2 feats that have Gray Elf as one of their prereqs (there are others, but this is the one common to both). One replaces to-hit with Dex for a Longsword; you cannot finesse a longsword and you cannot wield a finessable weapon two-handed (aside from Spiked Chain). The other allows me to replace Constitution with Intelligence when determining bonus hp.

Race choice makes sense, then.

[Keld Denar]

Couple things:

Take the WB level at 5, then cap with the 5th level of wizard. Your IL will be 3 at that point, so no point in waiting until 6, unless you really want the 3rd level spells...which is a point.

What you asked about feats won't work. You need at least one other MM before you take Sculpt or Split Ray. They won't count for each other. Also, why are you taking those 2? Both are much better for a non-gish caster than a gish caster, especially Scupt. Just sayin. Also, Quicken Spell is a no prereq MM you'll probably want.

As for more BAB...Human Paragon3 with Wizard2+Warblade1 would get you 4 BAB by level 6, at the cost of a spellcasting level. Probably not worth it though.

For your feats, I see a total lack of Minor Shapeshift (CMage). This is completely unacceptable. I suggest you take steps to remedy this immediately.

I personally LOVE Whirling Blade. In general, full attacking is a stronger option, especially with Wraith Strike, but sometimes you can't or don't want to close with an enemy. Combine Whirling Blade with a Spellstoring weapon to deliver touch spells at range. PS, BUY A SPELLSTORING WEAPON!

I think you've got most of the levels of PrCs that are full casting and full BAB. Dragonslayer is, but has some dirty rotten feat prereqs which are probably not worth it. I'd suggest 3 levels of Sacred Exorcist. Being a cleric PrC primarily, its d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and full casting. It gives you Turn Undead as a class feature, so if you don't COMPLETELY dump Cha, you can use TU to power devotion feats like Travel or Law or Animal for some nice boosts. Besides, at that level, the caster levels are worth more than the full BAB, so losing one BAB isn't the end of the world unless you need to get to 16 AND you are going epic. If either of those are no, just get the caster levels.

As for JPM vs Arcane Strike...JPM is a swift action. Swift actions are PRECIOUS. Arcane Strike is a free action. Arcane Strike is definitely worth WAY more than JPM2. Whether thats worth a whole feat slot is up to you, but I'd wager not, or at least not for a while.

[Greenish]

There are 2 feats that have Gray Elf as one of their prereqs (there are others, but this is the one common to both). One replaces to-hit with Dex for a Longsword; you cannot finesse a longsword and you cannot wield a finessable weapon two-handed (aside from Spiked Chain). The other allows me to replace Constitution with Intelligence when determining bonus hp.

Initiate of Faerie Mysteries works on a number of elves subraces, so stretching it to encompass fire elves shouldn't be too much work.

Improved Weapon Familiarity would get you access to Elven Courtblade (1d10, 18/x2 twohander) and a couple of other finessable weapons, for any elf. For non-elves, EWP: Elven Courtblade would work too.

[Elric VIII]

Couple things:

Take the WB level at 5, then cap with the 5th level of wizard. Your IL will be 3 at that point, so no point in waiting until 6, unless you really want the 3rd level spells...which is a point.

What you asked about feats won't work. You need at least one other MM before you take Sculpt or Split Ray. They won't count for each other. Also, why are you taking those 2? Both are much better for a non-gish caster than a gish caster, especially Scupt. Just sayin. Also, Quicken Spell is a no prereq MM you'll probably want.

As for more BAB...Human Paragon3 with Wizard2+Warblade1 would get you 4 BAB by level 6, at the cost of a spellcasting level. Probably not worth it though.

For your feats, I see a total lack of Minor Shapeshift (CMage). This is completely unacceptable. I suggest you take steps to remedy this immediately.

I personally LOVE Whirling Blade. In general, full attacking is a stronger option, especially with Wraith Strike, but sometimes you can't or don't want to close with an enemy. Combine Whirling Blade with a Spellstoring weapon to deliver touch spells at range. PS, BUY A SPELLSTORING WEAPON!

I think you've got most of the levels of PrCs that are full casting and full BAB. Dragonslayer is, but has some dirty rotten feat prereqs which are probably not worth it. I'd suggest 3 levels of Sacred Exorcist. Being a cleric PrC primarily, its d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and full casting. It gives you Turn Undead as a class feature, so if you don't COMPLETELY dump Cha, you can use TU to power devotion feats like Travel or Law or Animal for some nice boosts. Besides, at that level, the caster levels are worth more than the full BAB, so losing one BAB isn't the end of the world unless you need to get to 16 AND you are going epic. If either of those are no, just get the caster levels.

As for JPM vs Arcane Strike...JPM is a swift action. Swift actions are PRECIOUS. Arcane Strike is a free action. Arcane Strike is definitely worth WAY more than JPM2. Whether thats worth a whole feat slot is up to you, but I'd wager not, or at least not for a while.

Good point about the placement of WB. Also SE will be perfect, prereqs are basically nonexistent. I also realized that Wizard 6 will give me +1 BAB as well.

I was thinking about Split Ray in case I didn't ban Necromancy for some of the grat debuffs. Sculpt Spell was for the various conjuration fog spells. I do plan on taking Quicken, I just wanted to delay it to when I'll be able to use it, but that's not a big deal.

Minor Shapeshift: Just... wow. I'll take that.

Rare is the time I'm not equipped with a Spell-Storing weapon, so no problems there.

Good catch on the swift action JPM. I always seem to need more swift actions, so arcane strike will work.

Initiate of Faerie Mysteries works on a number of elves subraces, so stretching it to encompass fire elves shouldn't be too much work.

Improved Weapon Familiarity would get you access to Elven Courtblade (1d10, 18/x2 twohander) and a couple of other finessable weapons, for any elf. For non-elves, EWP: Elven Courtblade would work too.

Would that cost me 2 feats or is the Courtblade an auto-finesse? Although, I suppose I could just Feycraft it.

[Greenish]

Would that cost me 2 feats or is the Courtblade an auto-finesse?

Alas, no. Funny, I hadn't noticed Companion Guard Style before.

[Elric VIII]

Alas, no. Funny, I hadn't noticed Companion Guard Style before.

It's Dragon Magazine, that may be why. I just noticed it in Person_Man's X stat to Y bonus thread.

[Draz74]

Although, I suppose I could just Feycraft it.

Only works on light weapons.

[Coidzor]

Since you're going to be an Elf anyway, Bladesinger 1 is BAB+1, Spellcasting+1. I can't recall which book this version is in though, as there's like, 3 versions, I believe one in Complete Warrior, one in Races of Faerun and one elsewhere.

Also, Thrall of Demogorgon/Orcus 1 See also here.

Probably not worth the feat requirements to get into them though.

[Elric VIII]

I was thinking about Bladesinger, but it requires 4 bad feats. As for the Thralls, I have to be evil for those.

I'm not adamant about being an Elf (although I would like to be good, for a change) it's just that there are 2 feats that significantly reduce MADness. If there's a better option I'm definately open to it.

[kme]

Are you building this character for a real campaign that will start at level 1? This is important because usual gish builds that focus on high caster level simply don't work at lower levels. Your combat ability and HP will be bad, so you will be a gimped caster until you hit something like level 10. After that you will still be better off casting spells then going into melee simply because spells are strong.

For a gish that goes from level 1, my suggestion would be to take a single level of wizard early and then focus on the melee side. Melee types lose much less by multiclassing and your effectiveness will basically remain the same as if you were a normal melee char. Aside from lvl 1 spells, that one level of wizard would get you the ability to use wands, this would be your primary way of gishing at those low levels (wands can also be used with armor). Level 1 wands are cheap and you can start using them really early, later on add some level 2 ones. You will basically play like a standard melee character but with more defense/utility. Later on, it would be best if you could go straight into a gish PrC to avoid taking more wizard levels. Once you hit level 10 you will have access to lvl 3 spells and they give you plenty of utility/power. As you hit higher levels it only becomes better, and you never sacrificed your melee role.

Example builds:
warblade 1/wizard 1/warblade 4/abjurant champion 2/JPM X - the basic idea
warblade 1/wizard 1/human(or elf) paragon 3/warblade 1/JPM X - this will give you JPM earlier with still passable BAB/HP
wizard 1(precocious apprentice)/warblade 5/JPM X - If your DM lets you, this may be the best option


With that said, is there any reason why are you focusing on DEX instead of STR? DEX would give you a slightly better AC, but you have to waste feats on Weapon finesse/Companion Guard Style and your damage will suffer (especially if you don't qualify for Power Attack). With spells such as instant diversion/mirror image/blur/displacement, your defense will be better than that of a standard fighter type anyway.

[Elric VIII]

Are you building this character for a real campaign that will start at level 1? This is important because usual gish builds that focus on high caster level simply don't work at lower levels. Your combat ability and HP will be bad, so you will be a gimped caster until you hit something like level 10. After that you will still be better off casting spells then going into melee simply because spells are strong.

For a gish that goes from level 1, my suggestion would be to take a single level of wizard early and then focus on the melee side. Melee types lose much less by multiclassing and your effectiveness will basically remain the same as if you were a normal melee char. Aside from lvl 1 spells, that one level of wizard would get you the ability to use wands, this would be your primary way of gishing at those low levels (wands can also be used with armor). Level 1 wands are cheap and you can start using them really early, later on add some level 2 ones. You will basically play like a standard melee character but with more defense/utility. Later on, it would be best if you could go straight into a gish PrC to avoid taking more wizard levels. Once you hit level 10 you will have access to lvl 3 spells and they give you plenty of utility/power. As you hit higher levels it only becomes better, and you never sacrificed your melee role.

Example builds:
warblade 1/wizard 1/warblade 4/abjurant champion 2/JPM X - the basic idea
warblade 1/wizard 1/human(or elf) paragon 3/warblade 1/JPM X - this will give you JPM earlier with still passable BAB/HP
wizard 1(precocious apprentice)/warblade 5/JPM X - If your DM lets you, this may be the best option


With that said, is there any reason why are you focusing on DEX instead of STR? DEX would give you a slightly better AC, but you have to waste feats on Weapon finesse/Companion Guard Style and your damage will suffer (especially if you don't qualify for Power Attack). With spells such as instant diversion/mirror image/blur/displacement, your defense will be better than that of a standard fighter type anyway.

It will most likely be for a level 4-ish campaign (the planned DM for it usually likes to skip the low levels). I figure I will start with wizard levels and be immediately able to multiclass into Warblade on our 1st level-up.

The reason I'm focusing on Dex is because the following seems to work together very well:
- Gray Elf +2 to Dex and Int
- Gray elf can take feats that allow both of those bonuses to cover up the penalties, making me dependant on only 2 attributes.
- Hummingbird Familiar + Elf Wizard sub level is +8 init, that couples well with high Dex.

I know maximizing AC isn't the most efficient way to go, so that's just a side effect of the high dex. I mostly want the high Int.

[dextercorvia]

Focused Specialist Conjurer and the spells you listed aren't that compatible. You won't have much more than one non-Conjuration at your highest couple of levels.

Either play a regular Conjurer for the ACF, or a Focused Transmuter for the spells.

[Elric VIII]

Focused Specialist Conjurer and the spells you listed aren't that compatible. You won't have much more than one non-Conjuration at your highest couple of levels.

Either play a regular Conjurer for the ACF, or a Focused Transmuter for the spells.

Good catch on that. Although, in retrospect, I'm wondering if that +1 spell/level is actually worth it. Any thoughts there?

[dextercorvia]

Abrupt Jaunt is probably better for a Gish.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are going elf, I suggest Domain Wizard (SRD/Unearthed Arcana) and Elven generalist; I am sure that would work better.

[dextercorvia]

If you are going elf, I suggest Domain Wizard (SRD/Unearthed Arcana) and Elven generalist; I am sure that would work better.

Not really. He only gets one more spell/day at his highest level over a regular Conjurer. He loses Abrupt Jaunt. And, one of his bonus spells if from a predetermined list, the best of which still has some crap on it.

[Elric VIII]

So I'm thinking I can go normal conjuration specialist with abrupt jaunt, grab the listed spells as my general spells and grab a few summoning spells for added BFC that requires no concentration.

[kme]

It will most likely be for a level 4-ish campaign (the planned DM for it usually likes to skip the low levels). I figure I will start with wizard levels and be immediately able to multiclass into Warblade on our 1st level-up.

The reason I'm focusing on Dex is because the following seems to work together very well:
- Gray Elf +2 to Dex and Int
- Gray elf can take feats that allow both of those bonuses to cover up the penalties, making me dependant on only 2 attributes.
- Hummingbird Familiar + Elf Wizard sub level is +8 init, that couples well with high Dex.

I know maximizing AC isn't the most efficient way to go, so that's just a side effect of the high dex. I mostly want the high Int.

+2 to stat is not that big, especially if you have to waste a feat because of it. I don't know how will you generate your stats, but you will need 15 for STR to qualify for power attack. Also, if you trade your familiar you won't have that hummingbird unless you waste another feat.

Better just take a normal elf, pick up Faerie Mysteries Initiate and focus on STR and INT and you will probably be able to have at least 14 DEX. Your relevant stats will be lower by 2 but it's not such a big deal when you consider that you just saved a feat and that you got a big boost to damage.

With your build at level 4 you would basically be a wizards with 4/8 more hp. You would deal 1d8 or 1d8+1 damage in melee and your spell selection won't be as good as that of a regular wizard (at low levels you can't have many spells). This means that you won't really be a gish but a gimped wizard who carries a sword. When you pick warblade next level you won't be that much better in melee and you won't get level 3 spells compared to a normal wizards.

Now compare that to a build that would start as warblade 1/wizard 3, focuses on STR and INT and picks up 2 more warblade levels before entering JPM. You would be dealing 2d6+4 (or 1d10+4 with reach) damage with more maneuvers and more HP. Your casting will be weaker, but you will still have it, and it will be useful enough. With this approach, you won't be a gimped wizard but a warrior with some extra spellcasting.

For specializing (especially with FS), you want to be a transmuter or illusionist. Conjuration spells are not very useful for gishes.

For feats, you can pick up metamagic school focus and extend spell to extend those 1 round duration spells such as swift fly/expeditious retreat and wraithstrike. Power attack is obvious, combat reflexes goes very well with enlarge person. You can also pick a martial wizard variant to trade scribe scroll for a fighter feat.

[Elric VIII]

kme, I understand what you're saying. a gish should be a melee character with some spellcaster added in, not spellcaster with some melee added in.

I was thinking about using some illusion for defense in the form of miss chance. What is your take on grabbing Persist Spell for Wraithstrike (with metamagic school focus) for CL 14?

Now, a thought occured to me about the Faerie Mysteries Initiate, one of the possible prerequisites is to be from the a specific region. Does this mean that I can take it by having 2 ranks in knowledge local? If this is true I can be a Fire Elf and get boosts to both of the stats I want without wasting a feat.

[kme]

kme, I understand what you're saying. a gish should be a melee character with some spellcaster added in, not spellcaster with some melee added in.

I was thinking about using some illusion for defense in the form of miss chance. What is your take on grabbing Persist Spell for Wraithstrike (with metamagic school focus) for CL 14?

Such defensive spells are the reason to specialize in or nor ban illusion. If you do end up banning it, you can compensate with darkness, fog or blink spells. Blink has an added benefit of denying your opponents dex to AC. There is a spell in SpC called blacklight, it makes complete darkness that doesn't affect you. This basically blinds everyone within the area without save. As for persisted wraithstrike, it is obviously crazy good, but don't feel the need to incorporate it in your build at all costs. It will come into play only at really high levels anyway and you can still use the normal wraithstrikes if you don't persist it.

Now, a thought occured to me about the Faerie Mysteries Initiate, one of the possible prerequisites is to be from the a specific region. Does this mean that I can take it by having 2 ranks in knowledge local? If this is true I can be a Fire Elf and get boosts to both of the stats I want without wasting a feat.

I don't know if there are any official rules on it, but technically you would need to play in Grayhawk setting. If you do, you can probably qualify with only your backstory. Better just talk with the DM, if he allows the feat he will probably allow it with at least other elf subraces.

[Elric VIII]

Such defensive spells are the reason to specialize in or nor ban illusion. If you do end up banning it, you can compensate with darkness, fog or blink spells. Blink has an added benefit of denying your opponents dex to AC. There is a spell in SpC called blacklight, it makes complete darkness that doesn't affect you. This basically blinds everyone within the area without save. As for persisted wraithstrike, it is obviously crazy good, but don't feel the need to incorporate it in your build at all costs. It will come into play only at really high levels anyway and you can still use the normal wraithstrikes if you don't persist it.

I don't know if there are any official rules on it, but technically you would need to play in Grayhawk setting. If you do, you can probably qualify with only your backstory. Better just talk with the DM, if he allows the feat he will probably allow it with at least other elf subraces.

I'll talk with my DM, none of us are very strict with rules like that.

Thank you for the advice.

[Akal Saris]

If you're going from 1-20, I'd suggest starting with the warblade level. It will make a big difference early on to have a d12 as your 1st hit dice, and the 1st level maneuvers are good anyhow.

I'll second fire elf, not having a penalty to str is quite useful even to somebody with weapon finesse. And if you're ever stuck for a feat, Improved Toughness is a decent enough choice, you'll be dealing with 5 levels of a d4 HP already. Likewise if you don't ban Necromancy, then False Life is a solid spell pick.

I'd go focused transmuter over conjurer personally, but then again abrupt jaunt is nifty.

[Elric VIII]

If you're going from 1-20, I'd suggest starting with the warblade level. It will make a big difference early on to have a d12 as your 1st hit dice, and the 1st level maneuvers are good anyhow.

I'll second fire elf, not having a penalty to str is quite useful even to somebody with weapon finesse. And if you're ever stuck for a feat, Improved Toughness is a decent enough choice, you'll be dealing with 5 levels of a d4 HP already. Likewise if you don't ban Necromancy, then False Life is a solid spell pick.

I'd go focused transmuter over conjurer personally, but then again abrupt jaunt is nifty.

I don't think health will be a big issue since my Int will be replacing my Con, and I think it would keep me alive longer if I had the counters that based my saves on a concentration roll, which will most likely be better than my base saves.

I'm definately going to ban Evocation, but there seems to be some good Necromancy spells that a gish would want. I'm leaning more toward banning Enchantment.

[Coidzor]

I just got the oh-so wrong image of a necromantic-gish using white raven tactics to move zombies into position in battle. x.x Helped along in the picturing thereof by your Elric avatar...

I'm trying to remember what enchantment has that a gish would want... It might be the school that has the heroics spell which is always dandy to grab an extra feat. Though an eternal wand of it would also be fine too...

[Greenish]

I just got the oh-so wrong image of a necromantic-gish using white raven tactics to move zombies into position in battle. x.x

Er. Kay. Win. You know you want to.

[Elric VIII]

I just got the oh-so wrong image of a necromantic-gish using white raven tactics to move zombies into position in battle. x.x Helped along in the picturing thereof by your Elric avatar...

Well... I'm actually doing that now in a campaign with a Bone Knight that has a Ghoul Crusader Cohort.

[kme]

I'm trying to remember what enchantment has that a gish would want... It might be the school that has the heroics spell which is always dandy to grab an extra feat. Though an eternal wand of it would also be fine too...

I thing that Heroism is the only spell that could be useful from enchantment. Heroics is transmutation.