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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    I have occasion to stat up a powerful nymph. A nymph casts as a 7th-level druid. I would like to add class levels to her to make her more powerful - probably about an ECL 11 or so. If I added druid levels to her, would they stack with her natural casting? If not, what should I add to her?
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    If a monster can cast as a certain class of X level, then yes any levels in that class will add to it's effective caster level, but not to any other abilities of that class. For example, said nymph with 4 levels in druid would cast spells as a 11th level druid, but her animal companion would only be as strong as that of a 4th level druid.
    Last edited by Czin; 2011-01-22 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    I have occasion to stat up a powerful nymph. A nymph casts as a 7th-level druid. I would like to add class levels to her to make her more powerful - probably about an ECL 11 or so. If I added druid levels to her, would they stack with her natural casting? If not, what should I add to her?
    Explicitly So, Yes: "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monsterís levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. "(Emphasis added)
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    If I added druid levels to her, would they stack with her natural casting?
    Yes. This is the relevant rules text for 3.5 No idea where to find the Pathfinder version, but it's probably more or less identical if it's even on the pathfindersrd site.

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    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-01-22 at 01:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Yes. This is the relevant rules text for 3.5 No idea where to find the Pathfinder version, but it's probably more or less identical if it's even on the pathfindersrd site.

    ...SWORDSAGED!
    Oh, he's definitely talking 3.5 - otherwise, he wouldn't be using ECL 11 for the Nymph.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Oh, he's definitely talking 3.5 - otherwise, he wouldn't be using ECL 11 for the Nymph.
    You can't get an ECL 11 Nymph without level-draining off the RHD in 3.5. 6 RHD, +7 LA. So a Nymph Anything 1 will be an ECL 14 character.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-01-22 at 01:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Explicitly So, Yes: "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monsterís levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. "(Emphasis added)
    Oooh yay, thanks! It's looking like my backstory NPC's might end up appearing in my RL game, so I need to have them reasonably statted out.

    How would the summon spells work, then? The nymph entry explicitly states that she cannot convert prepared spells to summons. Also, would she benefit from the natural bond feat? For that matter, if I gave her a PF domain instead, how would that stack, since her levels don't give her a domain?

    Edit @ Coidzor: Yeah, I was thinking PF rules, where CR=ECL. The statblocks are basically the same. 3.5 rules are just borked when it comes to monster PC's.
    Last edited by WarKitty; 2011-01-22 at 01:08 PM.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Oooh yay, thanks! It's looking like my backstory NPC's might end up appearing in my RL game, so I need to have them reasonably statted out.

    How would the summon spells work, then? The nymph entry explicitly states that she cannot convert prepared spells to summons. Also, would she benefit from the natural bond feat? For that matter, if I gave her a PF domain instead, how would that stack, since her levels don't give her a domain?
    Once she takes levels in druid, she can just convert 'em into summon nature's ally spells. Much less headache that way since the spellcasting stacks.

    Yes, natural bond would benefit her animal companion because being a nymph doesn't have any impact for animal companion purposes, so it'd make up for some of those RHD. Natural Bond + a level in Beastmaster would mitigate the disadvantage of the standard 6 RHD of being a nymph.

    She'd have the casting ability to have spells of X level to cast domain spells out of if that's how domains work in PF. For effective druid level in regards to a domain's granted abilities though... Up to you, though I probably wouldn't have 'em stack unless it related to wild empathy or spellcasting.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-01-22 at 01:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    How would the summon spells work, then? The nymph entry explicitly states that she cannot convert prepared spells to summons.
    A nymph druid could convert the spells, I should think, since she gains the ability from her druid levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Also, would she benefit from the natural bond feat?
    Yes, since her effective druid level is below her character level.
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Edit @ Coidzor: Yeah, I was thinking PF rules, where CR=ECL. The statblocks are basically the same. 3.5 rules are just borked when it comes to monster PC's.
    I kind of think both are borked. 3.5 is borked in that you usually get weaker if you are a monster and I don't really care about it. You're exotic enough to get a surprise advantage most of the times and you get a lot of extra roleplaying potential.
    Pathfinder makes it so you get some really broken things really soon, if you mix it with 3.5 (and it's supposed to be like that). Wyrmling steel dragon was already good in 3.5; it Pathfinder, it's just plain cheesy. Rakshasa, at CR 10, are better than most gishes of the same level. Don't even think of all the havoc a classed allip can wreak in a game, as well.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I kind of think both are borked. 3.5 is borked in that you usually get weaker if you are a monster and I don't really care about it. You're exotic enough to get a surprise advantage most of the times and you get a lot of extra roleplaying potential.
    Pathfinder makes it so you get some really broken things really soon, if you mix it with 3.5 (and it's supposed to be like that). Wyrmling steel dragon was already good in 3.5; it Pathfinder, it's just plain cheesy. Rakshasa, at CR 10, are better than most gishes of the same level. Don't even think of all the havoc a classed allip can wreak in a game, as well.
    Agreed. Although most games I've been in there's no surprise advantage because you spend most of your time in places with a lot of exotic monsters. Another nice case of you can have a fun roleplaying character or you can have an effective character, with a lot of things. A nymph at least really isn't that bad - casts as a 7th level druid and has some decent features. If it was a PC here it would be more of an issue, but this is an allied NPC that's not going to be around much.

    Back on topic, how much is the PF celestial template worth mechanically? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/mon...stial-creature
    Last edited by WarKitty; 2011-01-22 at 01:26 PM.
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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Back on topic, how much is the PF celestial template worth mechanically? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/mon...stial-creature
    No more than 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Another nice case of you can have a fun roleplaying character or you can have an effective character, with a lot of things.
    I frequently have both. (Must be all the time I spend in Stormwind City.)

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class levels and "casts as" monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I frequently have both. (Must be all the time I spend in Stormwind City.)
    Pest.

    My point wasn't that it's not possible in general to have both. My point was that there are some particular character concepts that do enforce that sort of tradeoff. In 3.5, most monster characters are one of those concepts.
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