Grappling Monk?

[BobSutan]

This is sorta a continuation from this thread.

So I've gotten to play him once and it's been excellent role-playing as an easily fascinated/distracted character that's supremely naive to the ways of the world. We made this characteristic a flaw (gained a feat) so whenever he sees something fantastical for the first time he has to make a DC 15 will save or become fascinated per the description in the PHB. He's also a handful in the city--almost smashed a gargoyle statue on a building with his staff before someone explained it's not real.

Now that I've got a feel for where I want to go with it I'm looking at making him a grappling master who is hesitant to fight. He begins an encounter fighting defensively doing non-lethal if at all possible. With Scorpion's Grasp, if he hits then he wraps them up with his +14 Grapple modifier. Thus far this is what I've got planned:

Race: Goliath
Str: 22 (18 +4 racial)
Dex: 14 (17 -2 racial)
Con: 14 (12 +2 racial)
Int: 13
Wis: 17
Cha: 12
(rolled in front of DM as 4d6, reroll 1s, drop the lowest)


Overall I want him to avoid combat until necessary, but when he does to into combat he charges in and beats them down with grappling due to his feats and size benefits. I'm still contemplating going Fighter at level 5 for the improved BAB and to get the bonus feats of Improved Toughness and Combat Expertise to improve the defensive fighting.

[Greenish]

How do you feel about psionics?

[BobSutan]

How do you feel about psionics?

I'm not opposed to them, but I don't know if our DM will allow it.

Here are some other ideas I was kicking around this morning:

Grapple Master
Powerful Build --> Improved Grapple --> Scorpions Grasp --> Earth's Embrace --> Close Quarters Fighting --> Clever Wrestling --> Reaping Mauler

Massive Unarmed Strike Damage
Monk level 4 --> Improved Natural Attack --> Superior Unarmed Strike OR Monk's Belt

Charging Fool
Power Attack --> Flying Kick --> Improved Bull Rush --> Shock Trooper

Durable SOB
Endurance --> Diehard --> Improved Toughness --> Improved Toughness --> Improved Toughness and so on

Swing For the Fences
Monk level 4 --> Improved Natural Attack --> Superior Unarmed Strike OR Monk's Belt --> Power Attack --> Monkeygrip

Defense Master
Dodge --> Deadly Defense --> Combat Expertise --> Improved Combat Expertise --> Heavy Lithoderms --> Fighting Defensively

AoO Master
Combat Reflexes --> Deft Opportunist --> Evasive Reflexes

Duelist
Dodge --> Mobility --> Weapon Finess --> Duelist

Sacred Fist
BAB +4 --> Knowledge Religion 8 --> Combat Casting --> Combat Reflexes --> Improved Unarmed Strike --> Stunning Fist --> Ability to cast divine spells --> Sacred Fist


Misc Feats:
Earth Sense (RoS)

[Greenish]

I'm not opposed to them, but I don't know if our DM will allow it.

And is using Eberron materials on the table?

[gallagher]

I'm not opposed to them, but I don't know if our DM will allow it.

he is going to suggest taking levels of psionic warrior and taking that feat that lets it stack with monk. you will be able to get yourself to huge size eventually, augment your fists for more damage, pounce, and gain a bite attack that scales really well

[BobSutan]

And is using Eberron materials on the table?

Yes. Eberron is actually our campaign setting. We just arrived in Sharn when we stopped for the night.

[sonofzeal]

Imagine a grapple-monk with the following.....

Inertial Armor

Grip of Iron

Lion's Charge

Expansion


To get there, take "Monastic Training" (ECS), and "Tashalatora" (Secrets of Sarlona). Monk 1 / Psychic Warrior 9. Done.

[Greenish]

Yes. Eberron is actually our campaign setting. We just arrived in Sharn when we stopped for the night.

In Secrets of Sarlona, there's a feat called Tashatalora, which is the key for building great monks and grapplers. It stacks your levels in a psionic character with monk for the purposes of AC, flurry and unarmed strike damage.

Then, we take look at the Psychic Warrior, which gets bonus feats and has powers to manifest. Powers such as Expansion and Grip of Iron.

[FMArthur]

Imagine a grapple-monk with the following.....

Inertial Armor

Grip of Iron

Lion's Charge

Expansion


To get there, take "Monastic Training" (ECS), and "Tashalatora" (Secrets of Sarlona). Monk 1 / Psychic Warrior 9. Done.

You don't need any Monk levels at all to take Monastic Training. Psychic Warriors have feats out the wazoo and need power points and manifester level increases (ie more class levels).

[BobSutan]

Imagine a grapple-monk with the following.....

Inertial Armor

Grip of Iron

Lion's Charge

Expansion


To get there, take "Monastic Training" (ECS), and "Tashalatora" (Secrets of Sarlona). Monk 1 / Psychic Warrior 9. Done.

What book is Psychic (or is it Psionic?) Warrior?

And if only taking 1 level of monk, then why the need for Monastic Training? The feat lets you go back to the monk class and get more levels, which this build doesn't seem to do.

EDIT
Just noticed MT is a prereq for Tashalatora.

[Greenish]

What book is ECS and where can I find Psychic (or is it Psionic?) Warrior?

Eberron Campaign Setting and EPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook), respectively.

Psychic Warrior is also in SRD.

[BobSutan]

So because of the Tashatalora feat he's effectively a Monk/PW Theurge, which I really like a lot. However, I'm having a hard time fitting in the feats I had picked out before due to juggling things to make room for Tashatalora.

I think I'll just do away with the power attack, flying kick, and cleave later on with the feat retraining rules and pick up more improved toughness to really pump up his hit points.


Summary:
Charges for +5d6 damage, does 3d8 per unarmed strike, and will have +30 hp all by level 10. And that's not to mention having full monk progression for bonuses and Psychic Warrior manifestations.

[Greenish]

Power Attack isn't usable while grappling, and with medium BAB and one-handed weapon you use it's not so useful either. Your damage comes from being very big, when all is said and done.

Flying Kick is just 6 or so more damage on a charge, so it'll get outdated in a while.

I might just take one level of monk, unless you really want evasion.

[Edit]: Oh, and especially if you take two levels of monk, you'll want Practiced Manifester from C.Psionic as early as you can fit it in.

[BobSutan]

Power Attack isn't usable while grappling, and with medium BAB and one-handed weapon you use it's not so useful either. Your damage comes from being very big, when all is said and done.

Flying Kick is just 6 or so more damage on a charge, so it'll get outdated in a while.

I might just take one level of monk, unless you really want evasion.

[Edit]: Oh, and especially if you take two levels of monk, you'll want Practiced Manifester from C.Psionic as early as you can fit it in.

Our DM allowed me to make the size adjustment on the Flying Kick due to powerful build, so instead of 1d12 he does an additional 3d6 on a charge on top of his standard attack. The only reason I took Power Attack was because it's a prereq for Flying Kick and Cleave (which will come into play later on).

[BobSutan]

I should also mention I'm not opposed to retraining out of Flying Kick and picking something else up instead. If I went that route what would you suggest?

[Keld Denar]

Practiced Manifester will get you a couple more PP, and allow you to augment Expansion 2 levels earlier. The metapsionic Link Power makes buffing a no brainer, at the expense of your Psionic Focus, which Psionic Meditation helps recover. Overchannel might even have potential, allowing you to augment Expansion even more even earlier.

Just a couple thoughts.

For higher levels, I'd suggest taking Shape Soulmeld(Kraken Mantle) at 9th level, and Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) at 12. OLC gives you a +2 untyped bonus on grapples, and combining the two gets you Constrict, which does 1d8+Str every time you succeed in a grapple check. Every. Time. Even foe's grapple checks to escape, or checks to move the grapple, or pins, or any time you wouldn't normally be doing damage. Thats a LOT of extra damage in 2-3 rounds if your foe struggles.

[Flickerdart]

Why are you taking Improved Toughness so many times? By 10th level, 30HP isn't worth thinking about, much less spending three feats on. Something like Improved Initiative would be a lot better for you. Also consider a Spirit Bear Totem (CChamp) Barbarian dip for Improved Grab and Whirling Frenzy (UA) (there are a few ways of getting around the Chaotic/Lawful thing). Then get in Multigrab and Improved Multigrab (Savage Species) so that you can grapple people with one hand and still do stuff with another (like grapple someone else).
Girallon Arms soulmeld also gives you a bonus to grapple checks (which adds up).

[BobSutan]

Good stuff. I didn't know a grappler build could be so complicated. As for spirit bear totem, I'm not seeing it in Complete Champion and my googlefu failed me.

As for all the improved toughness, he's the party's main tank and only having d8 hit points per level is going to hurt in the long run.

EDIT
Found it on page 46 in the alternative class features. Bear gives you improved grab per Monster Manual page 310. Might be worth it.


EDIT 2
Improved grab only applies to targets 1 size category smaller. Not sure if the Goliath's Powerful Build racial feature will let me use this against medium sized creatures or not.

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble is Monks ,though thematically perfect, are hampered by A) 3/4 Base Attack Bonus and B) Multi Ability Dependency. So a grappling Monk doesn't sound like the worlds greatest way to do it.
Still, whatever displaces water for your nautical vessel I suppose.

[BobSutan]

The trouble is Monks ,though thematically perfect, are hampered by A) 3/4 Base Attack Bonus and B) Multi Ability Dependency. So a grappling Monk doesn't sound like the worlds greatest way to do it.
Still, whatever displaces water for your nautical vessel I suppose.

Can you explain what you mean by multi ability dependency?

[Keld Denar]

Monks need a high Str for damage and grapple mods. They need high Wis and Dex to not die, and power their abilities, and back up most of their skills. They need some Int because they have a lot of skills they should probably have, if they are going to fulfil the roles they are intended to fulfil. EVERYONE needs Con, because its hard to fight while you're dead.

That leaves only Cha as a dump stat, which also hurts if you are gonna put crossclass ranks in UMD and use partially charged wands...

[Ravens_cry]

Can you explain what you mean by multi ability dependency?

Monks need multiple high ability scores to be as effective. They need high Wisdom, because that boosts a lot of specific monkish things, they need high Dexterity because wearing armour makes them lose the benefits those benefits. They need high Constitution because they are melee types, made worse by a not very melee hit die, they need Strength to actually do damage off more then just the dice and they need Intelligence for extra skill points. The only statistic they can really safely DUMP, that is put a very low ability score into, is Charisma, and that is 5 of the six ability scores.
This is as Multi Ability Dependency, also known as MAD. So if you see people flinging around that acronym, they aren't talking like 1920's dowagers, trust me darling.

[BobSutan]

The trouble is Monks ,though thematically perfect, are hampered by A) 3/4 Base Attack Bonus and B) Multi Ability Dependency. So a grappling Monk doesn't sound like the worlds greatest way to do it.
Still, whatever displaces water for your nautical vessel I suppose.

In this case the improved grapple and racial bonus to strength, plus +4 from powerful build, makes up for the lower BAB. And once grappled I don't have to make attack rolls to deal damage, just win opposed grapple checks. He's 1st level and has +14 grapple at the moment, and that's with 0 base attack bonus and no other feats than what was mentioned adding to it.

[Keld Denar]

I built a little grappling build a bit ago that actually has terrible BAB. It uses Tashalatora with Soul Manifester (from the Mind's Eye web enhancement) on a Totemist chassis to get a rediculous + grapple check from soulmelds and size mods, and with Tash, actually did respectable grapple damage.

I think it was something like Monk2/Ardent1/Totemist2/SoulManifester10, for at 15 level starter build.

EDIT: I'm guessing PS is Psychic Warrior? FYI, its usually abreviated PW, or PsyWar. Just a clarity thing.

EDIT EDIT: Move Tash to 3rd level. You should qualify by then. Also, get Practiced Manifester as your 1st level PsyWar bonus feat, and probably Link Power (CPsi) as your 2nd level PsyWar bonus feat.

Also, Earth's Embrace is ok, but not really good. What you want is a form of constrict damage. There are only 3 non-polymorph ways to get it that I know of, and only 2 that would really be beneficial to you. One requires access to Tome of Battle, and the other requires access to Magic of Incarnum.

[Psyren]

You don't need any Monk levels at all to take Monastic Training. Psychic Warriors have feats out the wazoo and need power points and manifester level increases (ie more class levels).

True, but (a) Monastic Training can be taken as a Monk bonus feat anyway, and (b) Monk gets you Wis to AC, which you no doubt want (especially since it stacks with things like Inertial Armor.

Also, forget Toughness/Imp. Toughness. Take these two feats, learn this power and use your second feat to learn this other power. You are now nearly impossible to kill through HP damage; how's that for being a tank

[Flickerdart]

EDIT 2
Improved grab only applies to targets 1 size category smaller. Not sure if the Goliath's Powerful Build racial feature will let me use this against medium sized creatures or not.

Goliath Barbarians have a substitution level that makes them Large when raging. Additionally, Psychic Warriors have Expansion that can make them absurdly huge.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are some useful grappling feats in the Aberrant feat line from Lords of Madness:
Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs: +2 grapple
Deepspawn: gain two tentacle attacks, +2 grapple
Inhuman Reach: +5 ft. reach (if someone who doesn't have reach charges you, you can start a grapple with your AoO and their charge attack is made while in a grapple if it's even still possible for them to use their weapon while grappling)
Starspawn is also decent, it gives you wings and a limited ability to fly, it's better than no flight at all. Waterspawn gives you a swim speed and the ability to breathe underwater.

Furthermore, Power Attack while grappling is pretty unfair, to the point that WotC has officially stated that it shouldn't be allowed although there are no actual rules prohibiting it (and the official Frost Giant Mauler printed in Frostburn does this exact trick, way to go double-standard WotC). Power Attack imposes a penalty on melee attack rolls to grant a bonus on melee damage rolls. You can Power Attack for your full BAB while grappling, make a grapple check to deal unarmed strike damage without the attack bonus penalty, and since an unarmed strike is considered a melee weapon your Power Attack penalty gets added to it as free damage. Combat Expertise works the same way, take a penalty that doesn't apply to any rolls you make to boost your AC, though it only works against attacks made by whomever you're grappling.

[Prime32]

Don't take Clever Wrestling. You can't use it if you increase your size above Medium, and increasing your size is by far the best way to improve your grappling. If you took Reaping Mauler levels then since it has CW as a prereq your class features would turn off when you increase in size.

Consider getting a spellcaster ally to cast greater mighty wallop on your unarmed strike to increase its damage.

Take a look at Jotunbrud. It's a 1st-level-only feat which is basically Powerful Build light, letting you count as one size larger whenever special attacks come up (eg. grappling and tripping).


For a completely different route you could go with a warlock base.

The Grappling Blast feat lets your discharge your eldritch blast whenever you make a grapple check to deal damage, and gain a bonus to your next grapple check equal to half the damage dealt. For a hellfire warlock w/o bloodline cheese that's an average of +28 grapple/+56 damage along with an eldritch essence effect, though you probably won't be a pure warlock build.

Eldritch Claws lets you turn off your eldritch blast for one round to gain two claw attacks which deal damage equal to your unarmed strike + your eldritch blast. The Beast Strike feat lets you add the damage of a claw or slam to your unarmed strike. So basically you can double the base damage of your unarmed strike then add EB damage.

[BobSutan]

You guys are awesome!


1. Monk 1
Lvl 1 Feat: Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm 52)
Flaw Feat: Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs (Lords of Madness 178)
Monk Bonus Feat: Improved Grapple (PHB 95); Unarmed Strike is 1d8 due to Powerful Build class feature (Races of Stone 56)
+16 grapple check

2. Monk 2
Evasion
Monk Bonus Feat: Monastic Training (Eberron Campaign Setting 57)

3. PW 1
Lvl 3 Feat: Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona 119)
PW Bonus Feat: Power Attack (PHB 98)

4. PW 2
+1 Wis
PW Bonus Feat: Improved Bullrush (PHB 95)
Unarmed Strike becomes 2d6

5. PW 3

6. PW 4
Lvl 6 Feat: Fling Enemy (Races of Stone 140)

7. PW 5
PW Bonus Feat: Knockback (Races of Stone 142)

8. PW 6
Unarmed Strike becomes 2d8

9. PW 7
Lvl 9 Feat: Improved Natural Attack (MM 304); Unarmed Strike becomes 3d8

10. PW 8
PW Bonus Feat: Cleave

Levels 11 though 20 he should qualify for War Hulk.

Later possible feats are as follows....
Lvl 12 Feat: Powerful Charge
Lvl 13 PW Bonus Feat: Greater Powerful Charge
Lvl 15 Feat: Leap Attack
Lvl 16 PW Bonus Feat: Shock Trooper
Lvl 18 Feat: Lightening Reflexes
Lvl 19 PW Bonus Feat: Prone Attack


Looking back over things he's basically The Hulk. Consider the powers I intend to take (in no particular order):

1st Level
Biofeedback
Expansion
Stomp
Thicken Skin

2nd level
Body Adjustment
Strength of the Enemy

[BobSutan]

Finally got to play this tonight and, well, it's incredibly broken. At first level, when he does land a blow (not often) he tends to one-shot them so there isn't much room for grappling. However, we did face off against a wererat in humanoid form and only one person was able to do enough damage to actually hurt it, and that was only 2hp in damage. When I finally got over to them to engage it I laid a hit on it for 3 damage (13 total) and grappled it up. I rolled a 1 and the guys thought it was going to be a falure... until I called out 17 total on the grapple check. They all looked at me stunned when the DM, also frazzled, said it won (he rolled a 2 or 3 anyway). A few rounds of grappling and that +6 strength bonus did it in doing about 12-13 damage on average (so 2-3 actually). He only gave it 12hp total so it didn't last long, but still.

It was a fun night, but I've got to be careful not to outshine everyone else. Furthermore, with his low AC and abysmal hit points, this could seriously cause problems for the party if he ever drops. And by problems I mean TPK.